Software Needs Philosophers

[David Steuber]

Re: John Bokma harassment

I'm loath to crosspost this but I don't know which (if any) news group
Xah actually reads. I also don't want to make just a private response
to Xah's email to a public post. Anyway, the TOS of dreamhost.com is
here:

http://www.dreamhost.com/tos.html

Two important sections I'll quote:

<blockquote>

INTERNET ETIQUETTE

Electronic forums such as mail distribution lists and Usenet news
groups all have expectations regarding subject area and appropriate
etiquette for posting. Users of these forums should be considerate of
the expectations and sensitivities of others on the network when
posting material for electronic distribution. The network resources of
DreamHost Webhosting may not be used to impersonate another person or
misrepresent authorization to act on behalf of others or DreamHost
Webhosting. All messages transmitted via DreamHost Webhosting should
correctly identify the sender; users may not alter the attribution of
origin in electronic mail messages or posting.
Users must not attempt to undermine the security or integrity of
computing systems or networks and must not attempt to gain
unauthorized access. This includes (but is not limited to) such things
as port scanning of either DreamHost or external computers and Denial
Of Service attacks of any kind.

TERMINATION

This contract may be terminated by either party, without cause, by
giving the other party 30 days written notice. DreamHost Webhosting
will accept termination by electronic mail. Notwithstanding the above,
DreamHost Webhosting may terminate service under this contract at any
time, without penalty, if the Customer fails to comply with the terms
of this contract, including non-payment. DreamHost Webhosting reserves
the right to charge a reinstatement fee.

</blockquote>

IANAL, but it looks like you can have your account canceled, Xah.
Although to tell the truth, even though I find your crossposting
excessive and your rants uninteresting I don't think it is frequent
enough to bitch about. I do hope that no refund policy doesn't apply
when they terminate your account.

You would probably stand a good chance of keeping your account if you
stop crossposting so much. Dreamhosting has defined internet
etiquette for you. Stick within those bounds and you can defend
yourself against people who complain.

Good luck

--

http://www.david-steuber.com/

1998 Subaru Impreza Outback Sport
2006 Honda 599 Hornet (CB600F) x 2 Crash & Slider
The lithobraker. Zero distance stops at any speed.

[James]

Re: John Bokma harassment

> We seem to have strayed a long way from Voltaire's[color=blue]
> "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your
> right to say it."[/color]

Not at all. My problem with Xah Lee is that he is abusing the Usenet as
a personal BLOG. He has a web site to post these articles and he can
certainly put up a discussion board there if he wants a vigorous
discussion of his ideas. It's worse. He does not even respond to
questions directly posed to him in the thread of his "articles". Just
imagine if every blogger on the Internet started using Usenet instead
and cross-posting at that.

[Tim X]

Re: John Bokma harassment

Mitch <spudtheimpaler @hotORgooMAIL.i nvalid> writes:
[color=blue]
> John Bokma wrote:[color=green]
>> Mitch <spudtheimpaler @hotORgooMAIL.i nvalid> wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> John Bokma wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>> You're mistaken. All you need to do is report it. After some time Xah
>>>> will either walk in line with the rest of the world, or has found
>>>> somewhere else to yell. As long as it's not my back garden and not
>>>> around 4AM, I am ok with it.
>>>>
>>> Walk in line with the rest of the world? Pah.
>>>
>>> This is no-ones back garden.[/color]
>> Funny how people who always think they can "change Usenet" have no
>> clue about what Usenet is and how it works in the first place.[/color]
>
> Who said anything about changing it? I like it just the way it is.
>[color=green]
>> Usenet is just that, each server participating can be thought of as
>> being the back yard of the news master.[/color]
>
> Sure, each server has terms and conditions that apply, doesn't mean
> you should be able to ban people from speaking just because you don't
> like what they say. My point is that this isn't *your* back garden,
> it isn't *my* back garden. It isn't something I own, and it *IS*
> something I can filter and/or ignore. Someone shouting in your back
> garden is a whole different ball game where your desires prevail. Not
> here. You know what you are getting into when you sign in, and it is
> your responsibility to deal with those you don't agree with
> personally.
>
> I understand you consider his writings spam, and so can see why you
> have reported him. All I'm saying is that as long as the articles are
> remotely on topic, I believe he has a right to post his opinions here.
>[color=green]
>> If you have no clue about how Usenet works, first read up a bit.
>> What a Usenet server is, a feed, and how Usenet is distributed.
>> And then come back if you finally have something to say that you can
>> back up.
>>[/color]
>
> Thankfully I'm aware enough of all the above that I don't feel the need.
>
> As these are all opinions, I don't see any need to "back up" any of it.[/color]

Personally, I think this is getting a bit out of hand. Originally,
John and others suggested reporting Xah to his ISP for spamming
multiple groups. There was never any suggestion I have seen (except
from Xah himself) that the objective was to gag his "contravers ial"
thoughts/comments/ideas. I have no problem with him posting comments
which are relevant to the group he posts to. However, I do object to
anyone who has the arrogance to believe their opinions are so
important they should be posted to any remotely related group they can
think of.

I don't agree with nearly 99% of what Xah says - he often raises a
well known issue (i've not seen anything original yet), outlines it
reasonably well, but then proposes solutions which strike me as being
very poorly considered or narrow of thought. He also tends to look at
something for a couple of days and then rubbish it with a tone of
authority and experience he obviously hasn't yet obtained.

However, he has just as much right to do so as anyone else and
therefore, its not because of his content he should be reported - its
because of his irresponsabilit y in how he distributes it.

I also seem to remember a page on his website from a couple of years
back in which he admits enjoying trolling and starting flame wars -
but I can't find it now, so maybe I'm mistaken. However, I suspect
this is the main motivation for his posts rather than a genuine desire
to solve problems he perceives. At any rate, its not
like he hasn't been told his constant behavior of mass cross posting
was considered bad form - he has been told many many times and just
ignores it.

If someone wrote up there essays and got them printed on millions of
leaflets which they then dumped all over the place, would you be
outraged when they were fined for littering and claim their right to
free speech was being gagged? Of course not. This is the same. I think
most would have no problem with Xah posting if he did it in a
responsible manner.

Note that normally I try to remove all the cross posted groups in
replies to Xah's thread, but this time, I'm leaving them as I feel the
nature of this thread warrants it. If you disagree, please don't
hesitate to report me to my ISP as I'm more than willing to defend my
decision. If I lose, there not an ISP I'd want to stay with anyway!

Tim
--
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au

[bugbear]

Re: John Bokma harassment

Mitch wrote:[color=blue]
> Sure, each server has terms and conditions that apply, doesn't mean you
> should be able to ban people from speaking just because you don't like
> what they say.[/color]

You are a silly person.

BugBear

[Iain Chalmers]

Re: John Bokma harassment

In article <87verumr95.fsf @tiger.rapttech .com.au>,
Tim X <timx@nospam.de v.null> wrote:
[color=blue]
> I also seem to remember a page on his website from a couple of years
> back in which he admits enjoying trolling and starting flame wars -
> but I can't find it now, so maybe I'm mistaken.[/color]

http://web.archive.org/web/20050204172641/www.xahlee.org/Netiquette_dir/troll.html

big

--
"Everything you love, everything meaningful with depth and history,
all passionate authentic experiences will be appropriated, mishandled,
watered down, cheapened, repackaged, marketed and sold to the people
you hate." Mr Jalopy quoting Hooptyrides (on jalopyjunktown. com)

[Dra¾en Gemiæ]

Re: John Bokma harassment

Larry Elmore wrote:[color=blue]
> No shit. Lately it seems that for every "spam" post of Xah's, there's
> at three or more by John *to all the same newsgroups* bitching about
> Xah's use of bandwidth. Pot, meet kettle. I'm killfiling Xah for being
> a useless twit and killfiling John for being a prick about it.[/color]

There is a person on USENET, particularly in hr. hierarchy that
posts under three different accounts. Sometimes he argues with
himself, and sometimes event supports himself :-)

Maybe we have the similar case here.

DG

[Kay Schluehr]

Re: John Bokma harassment


Dražen Gemic wrote:[color=blue]
> Larry Elmore wrote:[color=green]
> > No shit. Lately it seems that for every "spam" post of Xah's, there's
> > at three or more by John *to all the same newsgroups* bitching about
> > Xah's use of bandwidth. Pot, meet kettle. I'm killfiling Xah for being
> > a useless twit and killfiling John for being a prick about it.[/color]
>
> There is a person on USENET, particularly in hr. hierarchy that
> posts under three different accounts. Sometimes he argues with
> himself, and sometimes event supports himself :-)[/color]

Sounds like me. In rare moments I believe that I'm not alone on usenet
but there are other people as well. I wanted to go to the doctor
because I believed I had a multiple personality but than I discovered
that the doctor was me too.

Kay

[John Bokma]

Re: John Bokma harassment

Dra¾en Gemiæ <usenet@local.m achine> wrote:
[color=blue]
> There is a person on USENET, particularly in hr. hierarchy that
> posts under three different accounts. Sometimes he argues with
> himself, and sometimes event supports himself :-)
>
> Maybe we have the similar case here.[/color]

Wouldn't amaze me if some of the buddies of Xah are actually Xah sitting
in some Internet cafe, enjoying this troll fest, and already thinking up
the next one.

--
John Bokma Freelance software developer
&
Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/

[Geoffrey Summerhayes]

Re: John Bokma harassment


"John Bokma" <john@castleamb er.com> wrote in message
news:Xns97CE807 F1ADC6castleamb er@130.133.1.4. ..[color=blue]
> Dra¾en Gemiæ <usenet@local.m achine> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> There is a person on USENET, particularly in hr. hierarchy that
>> posts under three different accounts. Sometimes he argues with
>> himself, and sometimes event supports himself :-)
>>
>> Maybe we have the similar case here.[/color]
>
> Wouldn't amaze me if some of the buddies of Xah are actually Xah sitting
> in some Internet cafe, enjoying this troll fest, and already thinking up
> the next one.[/color]

That's right, we're all Xah, you're the only other one here.

After you kill Navarth, will it be nothing but gruff and deedle
with a little wobbly to fill in the chinks?

--
Geoff

[John Bokma]

Re: John Bokma harassment

"Geoffrey Summerhayes" <sRuEmMrOnVoEt@ hotmail.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> After you kill Navarth, will it be nothing but gruff and deedle
> with a little wobbly to fill in the chinks?[/color]

Comparing Navarth with Xah is a huge insult to Jack Vance. You should be
ashamed of yourself for even thinking about it, let alone write it down.

--
John Bokma Freelance software developer
&
Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/

[Dale King]

Re: John Bokma harassment

Xah Lee wrote:[color=blue]
> I'm sorry to trouble everyone. But as you might know, due to my
> controversial writings and style, recently John Bokma lobbied people to
> complaint to my web hosting provider. After exchanging a few emails, my
> web hosting provider sent me a 30-day account cancellation notice last
> Friday.[/color]

I'm probably stupid for contributing in this flame fest, but here goes.

The reason that I consider Xah a troll and net abuser has little to do
with cross-posting (which is still bad) or the length of his messages
(he really should post them on his website and provide a summary and a
link).

My main problem is that he unloads his crap and then runs away. He
doesn't participate in any discussion after that. This shows that he has
no actual interest in discussion of the issues just in using Usenet as a
form of publishing.

The mention of free speech was raised. But the fact is that Usenet is
not free (as in beer). We all pay for it. Your ISP has to pay for a
server, the space for the messages, the bandwidth to download the
messages, and the bandwidth to send them to your news reader. In reality
the cost is shared among all of us.

Therefore you do not have the "right" to do what you want with Usenet.
You have a responsibility to use Usenet in a way that benefits the group
as a whole (e.g. asking interesting questions that educate others).

--
Dale King

[Steve Holden]

Re: John Bokma harassment

Robert Boyd wrote:[color=blue]
> On 24 May 2006 08:29:57 -0700, Rune Strand <rune.strand@gm ail.com> wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>>I can just declare my support. Reading Mr. Bokmas comments below[*]
>>certainly makes my suport stronger.
>>[/color]
>
>
> I sent an email in support of Xah, which I wouldn't have bothered to
> do had I not read the rapid-fire posts from Bokma which were abusive,
> insulting, and arrogant. Xah's posts often make me roll my eyes, or I
> skip them, but sometimes (and more so lately) they have been
> intriguing and foster thought-provoking replies. I'd prefer debate and
> discussion be fostered, rather than squelched. But what does this
> clueless sock-puppet know? ;)[/color]

I too wrote to XL's hosting company pointing out that while he might be
an irritant he wasn't particularly abusive. Bokma, on the other hand,
can be. I don't like either of them much, but at least Xah Lee insults
everyone while Bokma appears to resort to ad hominem attacks frequently.
--
Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com
Love me, love my blog http://holdenweb.blogspot.com
Recent Ramblings http://del.icio.us/steve.holden

[Fred Gilham]

Re: John Bokma harassment


Dale King <"DaleWKing [at]gmail [dot] com"> writes:
[color=blue]
> Therefore you do not have the "right" to do what you want with
> Usenet. You have a responsibility to use Usenet in a way that benefits
> the group as a whole (e.g. asking interesting questions that educate
> others).[/color]

....or at least, in a way that follows the TOS of your ISP.

The problem is that every time Xah posts, there are dozens and maybe
even hundreds of postings that get provoked. One might say, "Don't
feed the troll," but it's clear that this spate of posting happens no
matter what anyone says. It happens in every newsgroup I've ever
read.

It's recognized that trollish behaviour such as cross posting
irrelevant messages to many newsgroups causes this response. So
instead of whacking dozens or hundreds of people with a clue stick,
which is probably the right thing to do but which is impossible, it's
better to thrash the one who has actually started it all by violating
USENET etiquette in the first place.

Xah's postings are occasionally (*very* occasionally) interesting in a
warped sort of way, but I would much rather see him post pointers to
his web site. It would be even better if he actually figured out the
groups his messages were relevant to before posting them.

BTW, one time I tried a little social engineering to get rid of an
irrelevant cross-posted thread. I replied to the messages in the
thread (an irrelevant political thread posted in rec.audio.tubes ) with
(somewhat) inflammatory replies but deleted my newsgroup from the
follow-up line. I kept doing this for a day or two to every message
that showed up in rec.audio.tubes . The result was that the threads
actually died out pretty fast in that newsgroup. Unfortunately (but
understandably) people in the other newsgroups got pretty mad and
complained to some authority figure somewhere. The authority figure
had no authority over me but was nice about it, so I stopped. I
decided my method was a bad idea. Or rather, a good idea but
dangerous. :-)

--
Fred Gilham gilham@csl.sri. com
``This is mere entertainment featuring fictional characters. No real
human relationships were shattered in the making of this TV series.''

[Geoffrey Summerhayes]

Re: John Bokma harassment


"John Bokma" <john@castleamb er.com> wrote in message news:Xns97CE8E1 B64A6Bcastleamb er@130.133.1.4. ..[color=blue]
> "Geoffrey Summerhayes" <sRuEmMrOnVoEt@ hotmail.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> After you kill Navarth, will it be nothing but gruff and deedle
>> with a little wobbly to fill in the chinks?[/color]
>
> Comparing Navarth with Xah is a huge insult to Jack Vance. You should be
> ashamed of yourself for even thinking about it, let alone write it down.[/color]

Mr. Vance is too intelligent to be insulted by this.
OTOH, Mad Navarth is free to be as insulted as much
as his fictional soul will allow. :)

--
Geoff

[Dra¾en Gemiæ]

Re: John Bokma harassment

Kay Schluehr wrote:[color=blue]
> Sounds like me. In rare moments I believe that I'm not alone on usenet
> but there are other people as well. I wanted to go to the doctor
> because I believed I had a multiple personality but than I discovered
> that the doctor was me too.[/color]

That's bad, because all of you must be in different shifts, so you never
meet each other in person.

DG