Software Needs Philosophers

[John Bokma]

Re: John Bokma harassment

Max M <maxm@mxm.dk> wrote:
[color=blue]
> John Bokma wrote:[color=green]
>> ilitzroth@gmail .com wrote:[/color]
>[color=green]
>> Your first question should be: Is it alright that Xah harasses 5
>> newsgroups? Or maybe work on your spelling, harass is with one r, but
>> maybe you didn't read the subject, which wouldn't amaze me, since you
>> sound like you should be spending time on MySpace OMG!.[/color]
>
> I assume that the single l in alright is the courteous misspelling that
> should allways be in a posting, when correcting other peoples speling?[/color]

http://www.answers.com/alright

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?tname=all-right

:-D

--
John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/
personal page: http://johnbokma.com/
Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html

[John Bokma]

Re: John Bokma harassment

ilitzroth@gmail .com wrote:
[color=blue]
> I don't get the MySpace OMG reference, but rest assured John, you are
> still my favorite
> newsnet nazi. I know you have been feeling pretty insecure about this
> Xah fellow, but[/color]

Funny that someone diagnosing insecurity needs to refer to Nazi's in an
attempt to promote a feeling.

--
John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/
personal page: http://johnbokma.com/
Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html

[Ten]

Re: John Bokma harassment

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 10:36, ilitzroth@gmail .com wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
> >Your first question should be: Is it alright that Xah harasses 5
> >newsgroups? Or maybe work on your spelling, harass is with one r, but
> >maybe you didn't read the subject, which wouldn't amaze me, since you
> >sound like you should be spending time on MySpace OMG!.[/color]
>
> Dear John,
> Should I ask myself the question about Xah first, or work on my
> spelling?
> I knew har*ass it had 1 or more r's in it but I couldn't figure out the
> exact number.
> That makes me suspect my spelling is good enough and I should dive
> right into the
> Xah issue. What do you think John?
> I don't get the MySpace OMG reference, but rest assured John, you are
> still my favorite
> newsnet nazi. I know you have been feeling pretty insecure about this
> Xah fellow, but
> you know that is just silly, don't you?
> Yours truly
> Immanuel
>
> P.S Do not hesitate to comment on form, spelling or style of this
> message. I am always
> eager to learn.[/color]

Immanuel,

The guy cross-posts wildly off-topic posts as a flimsy pretext on which to
plaster advertisements for his website. That's even if you don't consider
the posts themselves drivel. He starts flame wars, or just maildrops and
doesn't respond.

He does so despite the way he does it being impolite, probably in violation
of every TOS he crosses, and inconsiderate to those of us who just want to
use the newsgroup.

If you want to waste your time on mounting a tenacious defence of that, good
luck to you, but consider the possibility that you may be wrong.

Of course we can ignore the guy - I'm sure many do without giving it further thought,
but being able to ignore a transgression or discourtesy doesn't magically mean the
person isn't doing it does it?

As for all this specious nonsense about freedom of speech - every organised forum
for discussion has some level of regulation, varying from taking turns speaking, to
staying a certain distance from the opposition, to wearing the appropriate hat, to
not physically hitting your colleagues.

To confuse that simple and civilised thing with some desire to *stifle* opinion
or basic freedoms would be a little childish, wouldn't it?

Isn't it just people wanting to use this resource as a place to discuss the
topics at hand, without loads and loads of noise and cynical advertising at our expense?

Cheers,

Ten

PS: Nice to see Godwin's ticking over nicely these days. :)

--
There are 10 types of people in this world,
those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[Xah Lee]

Re: Software Needs Philosophers

The Condition of Industrial Programers

Xah Lee, 2006-05

Before i stepped into the computing industry, my first industrial
programing experience is at Wolfram Research Inc as a intern in 1995.
(Wolfram Research is famously known for their highly successful
flagship product Mathematica) I thought, that the programers at Wolfram
are the world's top mathematicians, gathered together to research and
decide and write a extremely advanced technology. But i realized it is
not so. Not at all. In fact, we might say it's just a bunch of Ph Ds
(or equivalent experience). Each person there are not unlike average
white-collar Joes. Each working individually. And, fights and bouts of
arguments between co-workers are not uncommon. Sometimes downright
ugly. Almost nothing is as i naively imagined, as if some world's top
mathematicians are gathered together there, daily to confer and solve
the world's top problems as in some top secret government agency
depicted in movies.

Well, that was my introduction to the industry. The bulk of my surprise
is due to my naiveness and inexperience of the industry, of any
industry, as i was just a intern and this is my first experience seeing
how the real world works.

After Wolfram, after a couple of years i went into the web programing
industry in 1998, using unix, Perl, Apache, Java, database
technologies, in the center of world's technology the Silicon Valley.
My evaluation of industrial programers and how software are written is
a precipitous fall from my observations at Wolfram. In the so-called
Info Tech industry, the vast majority of programers are poorly
qualified. I learned this from my colleagues, and in dealing with
programers from other companies, service providers, data centers, sys
admins, API gateways, and duties of field tutoring. I didn't think i
had very qualified expertise in what i do, but the reality i realized
is that most are far lesser than me, and that is the common situation.
That they have no understanding of basic mathematics such as
trigonometry or calculus. Most have no interest in math whatsoever, and
would be hard pressed for them to explain what is a “algorithm” .

I have always thought, that programing X software of field Y usually
means that the programers are thoroughly fluent in languages,
protocols, tools of X, and also being a top expert in field of Y. But
to my great surprise, the fact is that that is almost never the case.
In fact, most of the time the programers simply just had to learn a
language, protocol, software tool, right at the moment as he is trying
to implement a software for a field he never had experience in. I
myself had to do jobs half of the time i've never done before.
Constantly I'm learning new languages, protocols, systems, tools, APIs,
other rising practices and technologies, reading semi-written or delve
into non-existent docs. It is the norm in the IT industry, that most
products are really produces of learning experiences. Extremely hurried
grasping of new technologies in competition with deadlines. There is in
fact little actual learning going on, as there are immense pressure to
simply “get it to (demonstrably) work” and ship it.

Thinking back, in fact the Wolfram people are the most knowledgeable
and inquisitive people i've met as colleagues, by far.

What prompted me to write this essay is after reading the essay Teach
Yourself Programming in Ten Years by Peter Norvig, 2001, at
http://www.norvig.com/21-days.html (local copy). In which, the Lisp
dignitary Peter Norvig derides the widely popular computing books in
the name of Teaching Yourself X In (Fast) Days. Although i agree with
his general sentiment that a language or technology takes time to
master and use well, that these books is a damaging fad and subtly
generate ignorance, but he fails to address the main point, that is:
the cause of the popularity of such books, and how to remedy the
situation.

These books are the bedrock of the industry. It is not because people
are impatient, or that they wish to hurry, but rather, it is the
condition of the IT industry, in the same way modern society drives
people to live certain live styles. No amount of patience or
proselytization can right this, except that we change the industry's
practice of quickly churning out bug-ridden software products to beat
competitors. Companies do that due to market forces, and the market
forces is a result of how people and organizations actually choose to
purchase software. In my opinion, a solution to this is by installing
the concept of responsible licenses, as i've detailed in the essay
Responsible Software Licensing, at
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/w...e_license.html .
----
This post is archived at:

http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/it_programers.html

Xah
xah@xahlee.org
∑ http://xahlee.org/

[Xah Lee]

Re: John Bokma harassment

Thanks to the great many people who has written to my ISP in support of
me. I'm sorry to say, it looks like they will be killing my account
anyhow. I have exchanged a couple letters with the guy at my web host
and he is not changing the decision.

Of this thread, i think 2/3 or 3/4 supported my view that this
constitutes a harassment and the canceling of my account is not right,
even if some disliked my writings. However, there are a few who has
made accusations because of my alleged “spam” or “abuse” of
newsgroups.

I've been considering of writing a single essay to reply or explain
these wrongful accusations. Or, perhaps these people prefer me to write
short replies at quantity as they do, so that i'm “in the
community” or “not using newsgroups as a blog”. In my opinion,
making multiple short, fast replies is one problem that plagues and
perpetuates the newsgroups nature of drivels and brainlessness. Most
people who have problem with me simply because i sound cocky and do not
bow to them.

Another point i'd like to make, is about cross-posting. Tech geekers,
due to their pissing male nature, often turns a cross-posted messages
to a flamewar if the message contained any slight possibility of being
perceived as sensitive. (students in fact constitute a significant
portion, if not majority, of the newsgroup demograph) The problem isn't
cross-posting itself, but the tech geekers themselves. As Steve Yegge
has pointed out in his essay “Software Needs Philosophers” ,that
languages and its people are full of religious hot-air. And, computing
languages and its people, are forever ignorant and blindly fanatical of
their own and attack outsiders. When i learned Python in 2005, i
thought it is a great language that remedies the problems created by
the Perl cult. But as i realized, the Python people are as militant,
poor in knowledge, and in fact ignorant of computer languages and
constantly propagandize their own and attack others. The point i want
to make here, is that the taboo of cross-posting is in fact a
contributor to this problem. Most languages stay blindly in their own
community, oblivious to the nature or facts of computing languages
outside of their world. If there are more relevant cross-posting, then
this problem can be lessened.

I have in fact already composed 7 replies to some the accusers of my
alleged abuse of newsgroups. If people like me to post them as a remedy
of me “using newsgroups like a personal blog”, i'd be happyto.

As to dreamhost my webhosting company canceling my account, i will try
to reason with them, and see what is the final outcome. They have the
legal right to kick me because in the contract that allowed them to do
so with 30 days advanced noticed and without cause. However, it is my
interest and my right, if they actually do kick me in the end, i'll try
to contact Electronic Frontier Foundation and Better Business bureau
for whatever advice or action i can solicit. Meanwhile, if you do know
a web hosting company that can take some 80 G of bandwidth/month for
less than $25 a month, please let me know! (i do hope if someone here
runs a hosting business and can host my site. I will certainly return
the favor.)

Thanks.

Xah
xah@xahlee.org
∑ http://xahlee.org/


Xah Lee wrote:[color=blue]
> I'm sorry to trouble everyone. But as you might know, due to my
> controversial writings and style, recently John Bokma lobbied people to
> complaint to my web hosting provider. After exchanging a few emails, my
> web hosting provider sent me a 30-day account cancellation notice last
> Friday.
>
> I'm not sure I will be able to keep using their service, but I do hope
> so. I do not like to post off-topic messages, but this is newsgroup
> incidence is getting out of hand, and I wish people to know about it.
>
> I wrote some full detail here:
> http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_di...arassment.html
>
> If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust,
> please write to my web hosting provider abuse@dreamhost .com
>
> Your help is appreciated. Thank you.[/color]

[Mumia W.]

Re: John Bokma harassment

Xah Lee wrote:[color=blue]
> Thanks to the great many people who has written to my ISP in support of
> me. I'm sorry to say, it looks like they will be killing my account
> anyhow. [...][/color]

I'm sorry to see you go for now Xah, but I'll be doubly happy to see
your return :)

Dreamhost isn't the only hosting company. There are smarter hosting
companies that are able to see harassment for what it is.
[color=blue][color=green]
>>
>> I wrote some full detail here:
>> http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_di...arassment.html
>>
>> If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust,
>> please write to my web hosting provider abuse@dreamhost .com
>>
>> Your help is appreciated. Thank you.[/color]
>[/color]

Thank you and bye for a couple of weeks :)

[Ted Zlatanov]

Re: John Bokma harassment

On 31 May 2006, xah@xahlee.org wrote:
[color=blue]
> Most languages stay blindly in their own community, oblivious to the
> nature or facts of computing languages outside of their world. If
> there are more relevant cross-posting, then this problem can be
> lessened.[/color]

(cross-posted to c.l.perl.misc and c.l.python only because they are
named in Xah Lee's discourse)

That's interesting. So to "correct" the attitude of several
communities *you* believe are insular and opinionated (most people
would disagree with you, but that's besides the point) you took it
upon yourself to cross-post your thoughts to all those communities.
Do you really believe this is ethically correct? (I'm sure you
believe it's morally correct, but that's also besides the point. I
hope you at least understand the difference between morals and ethics,
and which of the two apply when you deal with a community.)

You mention philosophers, cooperation, and open-mindedness. You also
use loaded terms like "hot air," "brainlessness, " call Python people
"militant" and "poor in knowledge," and name a "Perl cult." I hope
you see how this is at best inconsistent (I would call it
hypocritical), and makes you and your postings unwelcome with the
communities you've peppered with your opinions.

Ted

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Re: John Bokma harassment

Xah Lee wrote:[color=blue]
> Thanks to the great many people who has written to my ISP in support of[/color]
[...]
[color=blue]
> As to dreamhost my webhosting company canceling my account, i will try
> to reason with them, and see what is the final outcome. They have the
> legal right to kick me because in the contract that allowed them to do
> so with 30 days advanced noticed and without cause. However, it is my
> interest and my right, if they actually do kick me in the end, i'll try
> to contact Electronic Frontier Foundation and Better Business bureau
> for whatever advice or action i can solicit. Meanwhile, if you do know
> a web hosting company that can take some 80 G of bandwidth/month for
> less than $25 a month, please let me know! (i do hope if someone here
> runs a hosting business and can host my site. I will certainly return
> the favor.)[/color]
[...]
[color=blue]
> Xah Lee wrote:[/color]
[...]
[color=blue][color=green]
>> I wrote some full detail here:
>> http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_di...arassment.html
>>
>> If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust,
>> please write to my web hosting provider abuse@dreamhost .com
>>
>> Your help is appreciated. Thank you.[/color][/color]

HOST - dreamhost.com / Liberality (Hosting, Basic Requirement)

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_frm/thread/25618913752c457a

..

--

http://lazaridis.com

[Dra¾en Gemiæ]

Re: John Bokma harassment

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:[color=blue]
> Xah Lee wrote:[color=green]
>> for whatever advice or action i can solicit. Meanwhile, if you do know
>> a web hosting company that can take some 80 G of bandwidth/month for
>> less than $25 a month, please let me know! (i do hope if someone here
>> runs a hosting business and can host my site. I will certainly return
>> the favor.)[/color][/color]

80 Gb/month ? He intends to write a lot of spam.....

DG

[Stormcoder]

Re: Software Needs Philosophers

He means Lisp macros. Lisp macros are nothing like the crippled C++
macros that people tend to think of.

Roedy Green wrote:[color=blue]
> On 21 May 2006 02:15:31 -0700, "Xah Lee" <xah@xahlee.org > wrote,
> quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
>
> Java has lots of macro languages, including C++'s preprocessor. What
> it does not have is a sanctioned one. It has instead on-the-fly code
> generation. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/onthefly.html
>
>
> --
> Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
> http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.[/color]

[Xah Lee]

The Nature of the “Unix Philosophy”

The Nature of the “Unix Philosophy”

Xah Lee, 2006-05

In the computing industry, especially among unix community, we often
hear that there's a “Unix Philosophy”. In this essay, i dissect the
nature and characterizatio n of such “unix philosophy”, as have been
described by Brian Kernighan, Rob Pike, Dennis Ritchie, Ken Thompson,
and Richard P Gabriel et al, and in recent years by Eric Raymond.

There is no one definite set of priciples that is the so-called “unix
philosophy”, but rather, it consistest of various slogans developed
over the decades by unix programers that purport to describe the way
unix is supposed to have been designed. The characteristics include:
“keep it simple”, “make it fast”, “keep it small”, “make
it work on 99% of cases, but generality and correctness are less
important”, “diversity rules”, “User interface is not
important, raw power is good”, “everything should be a file”,
“architecture is less important than immediate workability”. . Often,
these are expressed by chantible slogans that exhibits juvenile humor,
such as “small is beautiful”, “KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid)”.

Suppose, we take a team of student programers to produce a large
software system. When the software is done, give it to software critics
to analyze and come up with some principles that characterize its
design decisions, without disclosing the nature of the programers. The
characterizatio n of such software, will more or less fit the
descriptions of the “Unix Philosophy” as described in different
ways by various unix celebrities.

For example, it would focus on implementation simplicity as opposed to
interface simplicity. It will not be consistent in user interface, but
exhibits rawness. It would be correct only for most cases, as opposed
to mathematically correct or generic. It would employee simplistic data
structures and formats such as text-files, as opposed to a structured
system or binary format that requires a spec. It would be speedy, but
less on scalability. It would consists of many small programs, as
opposed to one large system with inter-dependent components. It would
be easy to patch and port, but difficult to upgrade its structure or
adapt entirely new assumptions.

The essence of this theory is that when a software is produced for real
world use, it is necessary that it works in some acceptable way,
otherwise the software will be continuously debugged and refined. A
software system written by a bunch of student or otherwise
under-educated programers, but refined long enough for acceptably
practical, real world use, will necessarily develop characteristics
that is known as the Unix Philosophy.
----
This article is archived at:

http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/unix_phil.html

Xah
xah@xahlee.org
∑ http://xahlee.org/

[Frank Silvermann]

Re: The Nature of the “Unix Philosophy”

Xah Lee wrote:[color=blue]
> The Nature of the “Unix Philosophy”
>
> Xah Lee, 2006-05
>
> In the computing industry, especially among unix community, we often
> hear that there's a “Unix Philosophy”. In this essay, i dissect the
> nature and characterizatio n of such “unix philosophy”, as have been
> described by Brian Kernighan, Rob Pike, Dennis Ritchie, Ken Thompson,
> and Richard P Gabriel et al, and in recent years by Eric Raymond.
> Unix Philosophy.
> ----
> This article is archived at:
> http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/unix_phil.html
>
> Xah
> xah@xahlee.org
> ∑ http://xahlee.org/
>[/color]
Sigma may impress some, but it does not impress me until you realize
that philosophers can't count. That you have lower-case for the first
person nominative pronoun is one thing, but that you have a difference
in subject versus predicate is certainly something that Confucious
criticizes. frank
------------------
tja

[Keith Thompson]

Re: The Nature of the “Unix Philosophy”

"Xah Lee" <xah@xahlee.org > writes:[color=blue]
> The Nature of the “Unix Philosophy”
>
> Xah Lee, 2006-05[/color]

_______________ ____
/| /| | |
||__|| | Please do |
/ O O\__ NOT |
/ \ feed the |
/ \ \ trolls |
/ _ \ \ ______________|
/ |\____\ \ ||
/ | | | |\____/ ||
/ \|_|_|/ \ __||
/ / \ |____| ||
/ | | /| | --|
| | |// |____ --|
* _ | |_|_|_| | \-/
*-- _--\ _ \ // |
/ _ \\ _ // | /
* / \_ /- | - | |
* ___ c_c_c_C/ \C_c_c_c_______ _____

(If you *must* post followups, please drop comp.lang.c from the
Newsgroups: header -- which doesn't imply that this is topical in any
of the other newsgroups to which it's posted.)

Xah: please consider creating your own newsgroup under alt.*. You can
post your long essays there and (if you absolutely insist on doing so)
post pointers to them elsewhere.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keit h) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.

[Nils O. Selåsdal]

Re: The Nature of the “Unix Philosophy”

Xah Lee wrote:[color=blue]
> The Nature of the “Unix Philosophy”
>
> Xah Lee, 2006-05
>
> In the computing industry, especially among unix community, we often
> hear that there's a “Unix Philosophy”. In this essay, i dissect the
> nature and characterizatio n of such “unix philosophy”, as have been
> described by Brian Kernighan, Rob Pike, Dennis Ritchie, Ken Thompson,
> and Richard P Gabriel et al, and in recent years by Eric Raymond.
>
> There is no one definite set of priciples that is the so-called “unix
> philosophy”, but rather, it consistest of various slogans developed
> over the decades by unix programers that purport to describe the way
> unix is supposed to have been designed. The characteristics include:
> “keep it simple”, “make it fast”, “keep it small”, “make
> it work on 99% of cases, but generality and correctness are less
> important”, “diversity rules”, “User interface is not
> important, raw power is good”, “everything should be a file”,
> “architecture is less important than immediate workability”. Often,
> these are expressed by chantible slogans that exhibits juvenile humor,
> such as “small is beautiful”, “KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid)”.[/color]

Perhaps you should take a peek at the ideas in Plan 9 from Bell Labs,
which is a continuation of this philosophy, unlike the "modern" unix
clones.

[Frank Silvermann]

Re: The Nature of the “Unix Philosophy”

Nils O. Selåsdal wrote:[color=blue]
> Xah Lee wrote:[color=green]
>> The Nature of the “Unix Philosophy”[/color][/color]
[snip]
[color=blue]
> Perhaps you should take a peek at the ideas in Plan 9 from Bell Labs,
> which is a continuation of this philosophy, unlike the "modern" unix
> clones.[/color]
Is there an actual Plan 9? I'm only aware of the one from Outer Space.
frank