Software Needs Philosophers

[Alan]

Re: John Bokma harassment

With apologies to Voltaire:
If Xah Lee did not exist, it would be necessary for John Bokma to
invent him.

Xah and Bokma are both idiots, they truly deserve each other. The
sooner you killfile these two clowns, the happier you'll be.

[ilitzroth@gmail.com]

Re: John Bokma harassment

I agree there are limits to you right to free speech, but I believe Xah
Lee is not crossing
any boundaries. If he starts taking over newspapers and TV stations be
sure to notify me,
I might revise my position.
Immanuel

[Ant]

Re: John Bokma harassment

> Surely Voltaire didn't support speaking in inappropriate fora?

Who knows? But the fora Xah posts to are few (5 or so?) and
appropriate. "Software needs Philosophers" wasn't even his rant, but
was certainly appropriate to all groups he posted to.

If you don't like Xah's posts, then don't read them. Killfile him or
whatever. But they *are* generally on-topic, they are not frequent,
they are not spam and they do seem to be intended to provoke discussion
rather than being simply trolls.

I have no particular affinity for Xah's views, but what does get up my
nose is usenet Nazism.

[Alex Hunsley]

Re: John Bokma harassment

Xah Lee wrote:[color=blue]
> I'm sorry to trouble everyone. But as you might know, due to my
> controversial writings and style, recently John Bokma lobbied people to
> complaint to my web hosting provider. After exchanging a few emails, my
> web hosting provider sent me a 30-day account cancellation notice last
> Friday.
>
> I'm not sure I will be able to keep using their service, but I do hope
> so.[/color]

[color=blue]
> I do not like to post off-topic messages,[/color]

You don't? Then who has been forcing you to post off-topic essays? A man
with a gun?
[color=blue]
> but this is newsgroup
> incidence is getting out of hand, and I wish people to know about it.[/color]

Nothing out of hand here. You are abusing usenet, and for once an ISP is
doing something prompt about it. More power them.

[Tim N. van der Leeuw]

Re: John Bokma harassment


ilitzroth@gmail .com wrote:[color=blue]
> I agree there are limits to you right to free speech, but I believe Xah
> Lee is not crossing
> any boundaries. If he starts taking over newspapers and TV stations be
> sure to notify me,
> I might revise my position.
> Immanuel[/color]

Perhaps he's not crossing boundaries of free speech, but he's
repeatedly crossing boundaries on usenet nettiquette, even though
repeatedly he's being asked not to do so. (Extensive crossposting to
various usenetgroups / mailing lists, for instance).

If he would just post his stuff on a blog and find a why to get people
to visit hist blog, without crossposting to 10 usenest groups for each
post he makes to his blog, then nobody would mind him expressing his
opinions, and those interested could discuss them wildly on the blog.

But I've repeatedly seen people telling him not to crosspost his essays
to so many newsgroups, yet he continues doing it.
If that's enough to quit his subscription with his ISP I don't know,
but since I've stopped following threads originated by him I don't know
what other grounds there would be.

Cheers,

--Tim

[Timo Stamm]

Re: John Bokma harassment

Tim N. van der Leeuw schrieb:[color=blue]
> ilitzroth@gmail .com wrote:[color=green]
>> I agree there are limits to you right to free speech, but I believe Xah
>> Lee is not crossing
>> any boundaries. If he starts taking over newspapers and TV stations be
>> sure to notify me,
>> I might revise my position.
>> Immanuel[/color]
>
> Perhaps he's not crossing boundaries of free speech, but he's
> repeatedly crossing boundaries on usenet nettiquette, even though
> repeatedly he's being asked not to do so.[/color]

And repeatedly, others have encouraged him because they appreciate his
posts.

[color=blue]
> but since I've stopped following threads originated by him[/color]

That's all you need to do if you are not interested in his posts.


Timo

[Ben Bullock]

Re: John Bokma harassment

"Xah Lee" <xah@xahlee.org > wrote in message
news:1148459377 .384317.100730@ j73g2000cwa.goo glegroups.com.. .[color=blue]
> If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust,
> please write to my web hosting provider abuse@dreamhost .com[/color]

Why don't you just change your provider? It would take less time than this.

[olsongt@verizon.net]

Re: John Bokma harassment


Tim N. van der Leeuw wrote:[color=blue]
> ilitzroth@gmail .com wrote:[color=green]
> > I agree there are limits to you right to free speech, but I believe Xah
> > Lee is not crossing
> > any boundaries. If he starts taking over newspapers and TV stations be
> > sure to notify me,
> > I might revise my position.
> > Immanuel[/color]
>
> Perhaps he's not crossing boundaries of free speech, but he's
> repeatedly crossing boundaries on usenet nettiquette, even though
> repeatedly he's being asked not to do so. (Extensive crossposting to
> various usenetgroups / mailing lists, for instance).
>
> If he would just post his stuff on a blog and find a why to get people
> to visit hist blog, without crossposting to 10 usenest groups for each
> post he makes to his blog, then nobody would mind him expressing his
> opinions, and those interested could discuss them wildly on the blog.
>
> But I've repeatedly seen people telling him not to crosspost his essays
> to so many newsgroups, yet he continues doing it.
> If that's enough to quit his subscription with his ISP I don't know,
> but since I've stopped following threads originated by him I don't know
> what other grounds there would be.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --Tim[/color]

The trouble is there's no definitive definition of 'nettiquette' (and
no the RFC on nettiquette doesn't count). Should people get kicked off
of thier ISP for top posting? What about not asking 'smart' questions
as defined by Eric Raymond?

In addition, the people telling him not to cross-post don't really have
any authority. They're just random people on the internet. For
example, you've cross posted to several groups. I'm telling you to
stop. Of course I'm doing the same thing and you can feel free to
ignore me. I'm not the Supreme Master of comp.lang.pytho n.

But I think you would agree that it would be harrassment if I went to
your ISP- nl.unisys.com - and said that you were abusing the internet
and 'spamming' the usenet, especially if you are a unisys employee (not
sure if they're a service provider over there, but I'm guessing not).
If I got a hold of the wrong person on the wrong day, you could lose
your job.

Xah is an crackpot, but he doesn't spam or mailbomb groups. And
besides, what fun would the usenet be without crackpots?

[SamFeltus]

Re: John Bokma harassment

I was considering opening an account with Dreamhost. Can't say I agree
with all of Xah's writings, but they often raise important points.
Dreamhost is a company I will never spend money with. Usenet is full
of narrow minded group thinking that needs to be questioned.

[George Sakkis]

Re: John Bokma harassment

Alan wrote:
[color=blue]
> With apologies to Voltaire:
> If Xah Lee did not exist, it would be necessary for John Bokma to
> invent him.
>
> Xah and Bokma are both idiots, they truly deserve each other. The
> sooner you killfile these two clowns, the happier you'll be.[/color]

Well said, I couldn't put it better.

[Eli Gottlieb]

Re: John Bokma harassment

Tim N. van der Leeuw wrote:[color=blue]
> ilitzroth@gmail .com wrote:
>[color=green]
>>I agree there are limits to you right to free speech, but I believe Xah
>>Lee is not crossing
>>any boundaries. If he starts taking over newspapers and TV stations be
>>sure to notify me,
>>I might revise my position.
>>Immanuel[/color]
>
>
> Perhaps he's not crossing boundaries of free speech, but he's
> repeatedly crossing boundaries on usenet nettiquette, even though
> repeatedly he's being asked not to do so. (Extensive crossposting to
> various usenetgroups / mailing lists, for instance).
>
> If he would just post his stuff on a blog and find a why to get people
> to visit hist blog, without crossposting to 10 usenest groups for each
> post he makes to his blog, then nobody would mind him expressing his
> opinions, and those interested could discuss them wildly on the blog.
>
> But I've repeatedly seen people telling him not to crosspost his essays
> to so many newsgroups, yet he continues doing it.
> If that's enough to quit his subscription with his ISP I don't know,
> but since I've stopped following threads originated by him I don't know
> what other grounds there would be.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --Tim
>[/color]
Who reads blogs? They're well known for housing crackpots far worse
than Xah, and I estimate he doesn't want to associate himself with that
sort.

--
The science of economics is the cleverest proof of free will yet
constructed.

[Ken Tilton]

Re: John Bokma harassment



Tim N. van der Leeuw wrote:[color=blue]
> ilitzroth@gmail .com wrote:
>[color=green]
>>I agree there are limits to you right to free speech, but I believe Xah
>>Lee is not crossing
>>any boundaries. If he starts taking over newspapers and TV stations be
>>sure to notify me,
>>I might revise my position.
>>Immanuel[/color]
>
>
> Perhaps he's not crossing boundaries of free speech, but he's
> repeatedly crossing boundaries on usenet nettiquette, even though
> repeatedly he's being asked not to do so.[/color]

This would be a more compelling argument if people on newsgroups
everywhere did not regularly carry on the most inane threads, often
off-topic to begin with, but mostly threads that stray from something
relevant to the NG to <insert just about anything>, ending only when
Hitler is reached.

And I am talking about NG regulars who really do usually talk about
stuff specific to the NG. Those are the worst spammers of c.l.l, anyway.

Xah's stuff, as wild as it is, is at least technical, and it is only an
article here and an article there.

John Bokma on the other hand.... well, I have to go write to the dorks
at dreamhost now.

kenny

[Ken Tilton]

Re: John Bokma harassment



Ben Bullock wrote:[color=blue]
> "Xah Lee" <xah@xahlee.org > wrote in message
> news:1148459377 .384317.100730@ j73g2000cwa.goo glegroups.com.. .
>[color=green]
>> If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust,
>> please write to my web hosting provider abuse@dreamhost .com[/color]
>
>
> Why don't you just change your provider? It would take less time than this.[/color]

Are you joking. "Just change your provider?" Do you have a little button
on your computer that says "Change provider"? Cool! :)

C'mon, John Bokma (and everyone else dumb enough to crosspost their
shushing to every group on the crosspost list -- why do they do that? So
Xah will hear them six times? No, they want everyone to see how witty
they are when they tell Xah off. Now /that/ is spam) is the problem.

kenny

--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"Have you ever been in a relationship?"
Attorney for Mary Winkler, confessed killer of her
minister husband, when asked if the couple had
marital problems.

[Mitch]

Re: John Bokma harassment

ilitzroth@gmail .com wrote:[color=blue]
> Xah Lee schreef:
>[/color]
[...][color=blue][color=green]
>>
>> If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust,
>> please write to my web hosting provider abuse@dreamhost .com
>>
>> Your help is appreciated. Thank you.
>>
>> Xah
>> xah@xahlee.org
>> ∑ http://xahlee.org/[/color]
>
> We seem to have strayed a long way from Voltaire's
> "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your
> right to say it.",
> but that was of course the age of enlightenment.
> Immanuel
>[/color]

I would have to say +1 for Voltaire. Xah has as much right to post to
the newsgroups as I do to skip over them. One of the reasons I enjoy
lurking on newsgroups is the passion with which a lot of you speak;
however, I do think there are a lot of short tempers flying around.
Perhaps its because you've been putting up with this guy a lot longer
than I have, but I can't imagine it takes that much effort to
skip/block/kill file his posts. It's his as much as anyone else's, and
all the while this is an unmoderated medium he has the *right* to say as
he pleases.


That said, if the ISP is kicking you off, it should be because you have
broken a TOC. IF you don't think that that is the case, then that is
your beef with them.

Secondarily, all these essays end up on your site anyway, so why post
the whole thing /again/ on the newsgroups when you could just link to
the page, perhaps with a brief summary. Will that not

A) still allow you to advertise the essays

B) Save resources rather than copying everything twice

and

C) Piss less people off?

I'm sure you aren't worried about pissing people off, but when it
results in you getting kicked from your ISP, this just seems so much
more sensible an answer.

My 2 cents.

P.S.
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Summary) says:

<quote>
Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this
right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to
seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and
regardless of frontiers.
</quote>

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

This debate boils down to whether or not he has broken the ISP's TOCs,
nothing more.

[bradb]

Re: John Bokma harassment

[color=blue]
> C'mon, John Bokma (and everyone else dumb enough to crosspost their
> shushing to every group on the crosspost list -- why do they do that? So
> Xah will hear them six times? No, they want everyone to see how witty
> they are when they tell Xah off. Now /that/ is spam) is the problem.
>
> kenny[/color]

I agree. It is not Xah who is the problem, but the 200 replies to him
telling him to go away. Look at Xah's posting to replies ratio, it is
enormous - Xah is the ultimate troll and everything he posts turns into
huge threads. At c.l.l at least his threads are almost certainly the
longest by far.
The answer is easy, don't respond to his posts.

Cheers
Brad

(sigh, now I am one of the crossposting Xah repliers)