Browser survey

**Jonathan N. Little** · Jul 2 '08, 02:45 AM

Re: Browser survey

Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:

On 2008-07-02, Jonathan N. Little wrote:

>Scott Bryce wrote:

>>Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>>>On 2008-07-02, Scott Bryce wrote:
>>>>And when I go to a site that has a fluid design, I have to re-size
>>>>my browser window to prevent the text from going ALL THE WAY across
>>>>my 24 inch screen. I hate it when sites do that.
>>>Then why do you have your browser window that wide?
>>Personal preference. I like to focus on one thing at a time. Multiple
>>visible windows are distracting to me. I prefer to keep my browser
>>window maximized.
>>>
>>If I have a reason to need to see more than one window at a time, I will
>>resize my browser window. And I will concede that fluid designs usually
>>work best when I do.

>So you prefer?
>>
>+----------------------------------------------------------+
>| +--------------+ |
>| | page content | |
>| | page content | |
>| | page content | |
>| | page content | |
>| | page content | |
>| | page content | |
>| +--------------+ |
>+----------------------------------------------------------+

>
>
I prefer:
>
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| +--------------+ |
| |<- 35ems ->| |
| +--------------+ |
+----------------------------------------------------------+

Actually what I prefer is
+----------------------------------------+
| +---------------+ +------------+ |
| |+-------------+| |Another App | |
| |<- 35ems ->|| | | |
| |+-------------+| +------------+ |
| +---------------+ +------------+ |
| +------------+ |Another App | |
| |Another App | +------------+ |
| +------------+ |
+----------------------------------------+

>
Or:
>
>
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| +--------------+ +--------------+ |
| |<- 35ems ->| |<- 35ems ->| |
| +--------------+ +--------------+ |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
>
Or:
>
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| +--------------+ +--------------+ +--------------+ |
| |<- 35ems ->| |<- 35ems ->| |<- 35ems ->| |
| +--------------+ +--------------+ +--------------+ |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
>

Well the CSS3 columns would be useful, but with MS's inability to make a
browser support 10-year-old version 2.1... well?

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO

Little Works Studio Site Maintainance

http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

**Scott Bryce** · Jul 2 '08, 03:25 AM

Re: Browser survey

Jonathan N. Little wrote:

Actually, I do. And I realize that it is a personal preference, and my
personal preferences don't determine what the best practices are.

I don't buy the wasted screen space argument. If it is my decision to
keep my browser window maximized, I know that this is how I will see
fixed width sites. The unused screen space doesn't cost me anything. In
fact, it makes it easier for me to read the content than to have it
spread across the entire screen.

And no matter how strong the arguments are in favor of fluid designs
(and, yes, I do recognize that they are strong arguments) the reality is
that most sites on the web are fixed width, so most browser windows will
already be open to more than 800 pixels wide.

**Scott Bryce** · Jul 2 '08, 03:35 AM

Re: Browser survey

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Which means your pages are wasting a lot of space on my 21"
monitor... :-)

I have never understood that argument. What is "wasted" about the space?
My monitor is bigger than yours, and I don't consider the space "wasted."

If I follow the usenet convention of wrapping posts to 72 characters, am
I "wasting" space? If I have little to say on a web page, am I "wasting"
the space at the bottom of your screen?

**William Gill** · Jul 2 '08, 03:35 AM

Re: Browser survey

Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:

I prefer:
>
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| +--------------+ |
| |<- 35ems ->| |
| +--------------+ |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
>
Or:
>
>
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| +--------------+ +--------------+ |
| |<- 35ems ->| |<- 35ems ->| |
| +--------------+ +--------------+ |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
>
Or:
>
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| +--------------+ +--------------+ +--------------+ |
| |<- 35ems ->| |<- 35ems ->| |<- 35ems ->| |
| +--------------+ +--------------+ +--------------+ |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
>
>

Interestingly, I settled on 35ems as a target width for content also,
based on what I gleaned from several of the essays on "optimal line length."

**Beauregard T. Shagnasty** · Jul 2 '08, 03:35 AM

Re: Browser survey

Scott Bryce wrote:

Jonathan N. Little wrote:

>+----------------------------------------------------------+
>>| +--------------+ |
>>| | page content | |
>>| | page content | |
>>| | page content | |
>>| | page content | |
>>| | page content | |
>>| | page content | |
>>| +--------------+ |
>+----------------------------------------------------------+

>
I don't buy the wasted screen space argument. If it is my decision to
keep my browser window maximized, I know that this is how I will see
fixed width sites.

No, sometimes you see them like this:

+----------------------------------------------------------+
|+--------------+ |
|| page content | |
|| page content | |
|| page content | |
|| page content | |
|| page content | |
|| page content | |
|+--------------+ |
+----------------------------------------------------------+

...which is even more irritating, eh?

--
-bts
-Friends don't let friends drive Windows

**Scott Bryce** · Jul 2 '08, 03:45 AM

Re: Browser survey

Jonathan N. Little wrote:

If you have a high resolution big monitor why you would have your
browser maximized?

As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, it is a personal preference. I
work better when I only have to focus on one thing at a time. Multiple
visible windows are distracting to me.

Another reason I keep my browser window maximized is that I like to see
as much as possible in the window at once, which, I realize, is an
argument in favor of fluid designs.

Make it a sensible ratio and have some other window on the desktop to
do something else. It is like the difference of having and executive
desk with your work laid out verses one of those school-days
chair-'n-paddleboard desk with barely room for a book!

I like the executive desk so I can move the things I am not working on
out of the way. They are only an alt-tab away if I need them.

**Jerry Stuckle** · Jul 2 '08, 03:55 AM

Re: Browser survey

Scott Bryce wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

>Which means your pages are wasting a lot of space on my 21" monitor...
>:-)

>
I have never understood that argument. What is "wasted" about the space?
My monitor is bigger than yours, and I don't consider the space "wasted."
>
If I follow the usenet convention of wrapping posts to 72 characters, am
I "wasting" space? If I have little to say on a web page, am I "wasting"
the space at the bottom of your screen?
>

You're hopeless. And beyond dumb, because you don't even want to learn.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

**Scott Bryce** · Jul 2 '08, 03:55 AM

Re: Browser survey

dorayme wrote:

I have had poor success in getting across a certain important
distinction. And I see from your answer that I have failed to trigger
it again! <g>

Perhaps. Maybe I am missing something.

I would have known you were aware of my point had you said something
like:
>
"All (many) of the fluid sites I go to are hopeless because the lines
of text are too long and this is clearly the fault of the designers
in allowing this to happen.

I wouldn't say that, because I don't believe that. I find it annoying,
but I don't fault the designer. I fault the medium.

The fluidity of the page is not compromised by having the text
limited in width. But the designers of these sites are less than
competent and simply have not realised that the page can be usefully
wide (eg. pics can spread out horizontally to convenient effect
(easing need to scroll down) without also having to make text so
lengthy across. To be fair to some designers,

If this is what you believe, then perhaps we both feel the same way
about design. I'm beginning to think that you don't necessarily make a
distinction between fixed width and fluid designs. That perhaps you mean
something different by "fluid." I have seen designs that don't recognize
that you cannot determine the height of the text on the viewer's
browser, but depend on fixed height divs, etc. Or use absolute
positioning for images or paragraphs, not realizing that text won't
necessarily wrap the same way the designer saw it on HIS screen. Is this
what you are talking about?

You seem to me quite capable of appreciating the distinction I am
making. Perhaps you are seeming not to acknowledge it for special
reasons? I am happy to make you a page that illustrates the
distinction if it escapes you or anyone else.

I seem to be missing something. If it isn't too much trouble...

Whenever the subject of fluid design is discussed here it seem to be
distinguished from sites that are a fixed number of pixels in width. Are
you talking about something different?

**Scott Bryce** · Jul 2 '08, 04:05 AM

Re: Browser survey

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

And if you are designing the site, your arguments about fixed width
designs will always take over.

That is a straw man, Jerry. I have never said in this thread that fixed
width designs are better.

**Scott Bryce** · Jul 2 '08, 04:05 AM

Re: Browser survey

Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

Scott Bryce wrote:
>

>Jonathan N. Little wrote:

>>+----------------------------------------------------------+
>>| +--------------+ |
>>| | page content | |
>>| | page content | |
>>| | page content | |
>>| | page content | |
>>| | page content | |
>>| | page content | |
>>| +--------------+ |
>>+----------------------------------------------------------+

>I don't buy the wasted screen space argument. If it is my decision to
>keep my browser window maximized, I know that this is how I will see
>fixed width sites.

>
No, sometimes you see them like this:
>
+----------------------------------------------------------+
|+--------------+ |
|| page content | |
|| page content | |
|| page content | |
|| page content | |
|| page content | |
|| page content | |
|+--------------+ |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
>
..which is even more irritating, eh?

I don't find either one irritating, though I prefer the first.

**Scott Bryce** · Jul 2 '08, 04:05 AM

Re: Browser survey

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

You're hopeless. And beyond dumb, because you don't even want to
learn.

I asked an honest question. If you won't answer it, how will I learn?

A man resorts to ad hominem arguments when he hasn't got a better answer.

I am really not interested in getting into one of your pissing matches.
When you are not in one of your moods, you have a lot to contribute.
Honestly, I don't understand the "wasted space" argument. Help me out here.

**Red E. Kilowatt** · Jul 2 '08, 04:35 AM

Re: Browser survey

Scott Bryce <sbryce@scottbr yce.comwrote in message:
17OdnfKZKehkYPf VnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d@comcast.c om,

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

>You're hopeless. And beyond dumb, because you don't even want to
>learn.

>
>
I asked an honest question. If you won't answer it, how will I learn?
>
A man resorts to ad hominem arguments when he hasn't got a better
answer.
I am really not interested in getting into one of your pissing
matches. When you are not in one of your moods, you have a lot to
contribute. Honestly, I don't understand the "wasted space" argument.
Help me out here.

To each his own. One man's wasted space is another man's uncluttered
display.

I finally bought a monitor big enough so that I am comfortable with
multiple windows displaying at the same time and being useful in that
mode, but sometimes I just want to focus on one window without the other
distractions.
--
Red

**dorayme** · Jul 2 '08, 05:15 AM

Re: Browser survey

In article <17OdnfKZKehkYP fVnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d@comcast.c om>,
Scott Bryce <sbryce@scottbr yce.comwrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

You're hopeless. And beyond dumb, because you don't even want to
learn.

>
>
I asked an honest question. If you won't answer it, how will I learn?
>
A man resorts to ad hominem arguments when he hasn't got a better answer.
>
I am really not interested in getting into one of your pissing matches.
When you are not in one of your moods, you have a lot to contribute.
Honestly, I don't understand the "wasted space" argument. Help me out here.

I beg you Scott! Don't! This man is a complete idiot and unworthy of
your tolerance and patience and good manners.

--
dorayme

**Sherman Pendley** · Jul 2 '08, 05:55 AM

Re: Browser survey

Scott Bryce <sbryce@scottbr yce.comwrites:

Jonathan N. Little wrote:

>So you prefer?
>>
>+----------------------------------------------------------+
>| +--------------+ |
>| | page content | |
>| | page content | |
>| | page content | |
>| | page content | |
>| | page content | |
>| | page content | |
>| +--------------+ |
>+----------------------------------------------------------+

>
>
Actually, I do. And I realize that it is a personal preference, and my
personal preferences don't determine what the best practices are.

That's why flexible is better! It allows you to have your own
preferences, but without precluding the same for anyone else. Just
create a user stylesheet with an !important attribute, like this:

body {
max-width: 60em !important;
}

And there you go. You get a site that doesn't expand to fit your
full-screen window, and because it's a user stylesheet, it only
affects your own browser. I still get pages that adjust to whatever
size my window happens to be.

sherm--

--
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net

**Sherman Pendley** · Jul 2 '08, 06:05 AM

Re: Browser survey

Scott Bryce <sbryce@scottbr yce.comwrites:

And when I go to a site that has a fluid design, I have to re-size my
browser window to prevent the text from going ALL THE WAY across my 24
inch screen. I hate it when sites do that.

So create a user stylesheet with a max-width.

My personal opinion is that the medium is such that there is no correct
answer to the question of fluid designs vs fixed width designs.

Fluid designs don't presume to offer a "correct" answer. They can be
as fluid or as fixed as the user wants.

sherm--

--
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net

Browser survey

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