How to detect table width or height?

[kchayka]

Re: How to detect table width or height?



Mikko Rantalainen wrote:[color=blue]
>
> [1] The only thing that has even remotely nice features and uses Flash
> is http://www.kartoo.com/.[/color]

As with pretty much every other Flash site out there, the text size is
too small for me to read without putting my nose to the screen, and then
some of it is still unreadable. The HTML version uses microfonts, too,
but at least I can easily fix that in a couple keystrokes.

Can't say the same for the Flash version. Even with the Flash player's
zoom feature, I'd have to pan the content to see more than just a little
piece at a time. That's a really lousy way to have to view a site,
especially for a keyboard user. I'll take scrollbars any day. Well,
vertical scrollbars anyway. ;) Horizontal scrollbars suck, too, but not
as much as panning.

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[Brian]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Jonathan Snook wrote:[color=blue]
> "Barry Pearson" <news@childsupp ortanalysis.co. uk> wrote in message
> news:hINkb.254$ NJ1.320140@news fep2-gui.server.ntli .net...
>[color=green]
>>I have Flash installed. I also run with it switched off.[/color][/color]

And he's not alone. I also have Flash, but normally, it is disabled.
And it'd take a lot to convince me to reenable it for some site.
[color=blue]
> Why do you run with it switched off?[/color]

Because it's only used for ads and silly gimmicks.

--
Brian
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[Brian]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Jonathan Snook wrote:[color=blue]
> "Brian" <usenet1@juliet remblay.com.inv alid-remove-this-part> wrote in
> message[/color]
[color=blue]
> My sites are written in HTML. No additional software required.
>
> Really? Cuz I had to download this thing called a "browser" to view it.[/color]

Please reread my post. "No additional software required." One is
unlikely to arrive at a website without a browser. Requiring someone,
after they already have a browser, to download more software is
something I avoid.
[color=blue]
> Seriously though, wouldn't it be better to try and educate the people who
> post questions[/color]

We are. Haven't you been reading?

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[Lauri Raittila]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

In article Jonathan Snook wrote:[color=blue]
> "Mikko Rantalainen" <mira@st.jyu.fi > wrote in message[color=green]
> > Well, color me skeptical but I have yet to see Flash used in such a way
> > that the usability is *better* than without Flash. Could you give us a
> > hint and throw us an URL to *any* site that uses Flash and has good
> > usability in your opinion. I haven't yet seen any. [1][/color]
>
> The charts on http://www.infosoftglobal.com/FusionCharts/Gallery.html can be
> an effective way of displaying tabular or more complex information.[/color]

It seems to be application of vector graphic. That is propably one reason
to use flash. Until SVG is implemented. I don't think that it is actually
much use here, since I still get horizontal scrollbar, and I can zoom
image far better (even if not as nicely) with browsers build in function
that flashes. (or maybe my flash is stupid because it only zooms in huge
steps?)
[color=blue]
> I've also seen a Flash-based application for reporting gate information
> for an airport.[/color]

No idea why it wouldn't be possible using HTML and server side
technology. Especially whithout URL to your example.
[color=blue]
> And I like the navigation on Macromedia.com.[/color]

Can you use all means possible to navigation there? With some browser
that has more than one way to navigate? Didn't visit it, I have done it
twice before, and both times I crashed my browser. With different major
versions of browser.
[color=blue]
> I've also seem some chat apps (like the one at teknision.com) that
> would be downright hideous in HTML.[/color]

Yes, I get "loading" sign for ten seconds on broadband... Then it don't
fit my window, put I don't have any means to scroll horizontally. I can
move that small window around inside my window, but can't drag it out of
it, so I can't relly understand why it is usefull for it to move at all

And lots of slow animation everywhere, so I need to wait before act.

It is popular too, 7 users online, If I'm not mistaken.

It might be somewhat hard to do same with DHMTL, especially so that it
would degrade well, but I think it would be worth it. Since current
implementation is pretty much unusable.


--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Saapi lähettää meiliä, jos aihe ei liity ryhmään, tai on yksityinen
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[Lauri Raittila]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

In article Barry Pearson wrote:[color=blue]
>
> The Macromedia site is just about one of the few sites that demands Flash that
> I can't walk away from. Grrrrggh![/color]

Well, there is no must to use macromedia products or site, not even if
you are doing Flash, IIANM.

--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Saapi lähettää meiliä, jos aihe ei liity ryhmään, tai on yksityinen
tjsp., mutta älä lähetä samaa viestiä meilitse ja ryhmään.

[Barry Pearson]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Lauri Raittila wrote:[color=blue]
> In article Barry Pearson wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> The Macromedia site is just about one of the few sites that demands
>> Flash that I can't walk away from. Grrrrggh![/color]
>
> Well, there is no must to use macromedia products or site, not even if
> you are doing Flash, IIANM.[/color]

Agreed - I don't even need to develop web sites!

But I happen to use Dreamweaver 4, and use extensions to make life easier. And
I now have to use Flash to navigate round. It could be done easier without
Flash. (I think they've screwed up the navigation a bit. Sometimes I can't
work out how to get back exactly where I want to get to, and end up back at
the start and re-do a lot of the context).

Most Flash sites don't have the same level of value to me, or else they
provide an alternative. The ones that really care about their viewers provide
an alternative. But Macromedia is a special case. They don't want to give the
impression that there are sensible alternatives!

--
Barry Pearson

http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/

http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/

http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/

[kchayka]

Re: How to detect table width or height?



Dennis wrote:[color=blue]
>
> There are 2 relevant
> Flash ActionScript commands, stage.width and stage.height. These tell
> you within a pixel how big the user's window is.[/color]

So what are the relevant commands that tell you what the user's
preferred text size is?

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[Lauri Raittila]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

In article Brian wrote:[color=blue]
> Jonathan Snook wrote:[color=green]
> > "Barry Pearson" <news@childsupp ortanalysis.co. uk> wrote in message
> > news:hINkb.254$ NJ1.320140@news fep2-gui.server.ntli .net...
> >[color=darkred]
> >>I have Flash installed. I also run with it switched off.[/color][/color][/color]

Me too.
[color=blue]
> And he's not alone. I also have Flash, but normally, it is disabled.
> And it'd take a lot to convince me to reenable it for some site.
>[color=green]
> > Why do you run with it switched off?[/color][/color]

Because every time some flash thingy loads, and works, it is annoying.
Before I used to close window, when finding useless flash. Now I only do
if there is no suitable content.

I only enable Flash when I want to see funny animations of G. Bush the
dumber etc. And I hardly ever want to see those embedded to HTML, so I
don't think it is suitable for example of good use of flash, any media
file would be as good.

--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Saapi lähettää meiliä, jos aihe ei liity ryhmään, tai on yksityinen
tjsp., mutta älä lähetä samaa viestiä meilitse ja ryhmään.

[Lauri Raittila]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

In article Jonathan Snook wrote:[color=blue]
> "Brian" <usenet1@juliet remblay.com.inv alid-remove-this-part> wrote in
> message > My sites are written in HTML. No additional software required.
>
> Really? Cuz I had to download this thing called a "browser" to view it. I
> suppose I could've just used Notepad to view your site but it seems that a
> "browser" enhances my ability to view your site.[/color]

True. But I think one could actually read Brians page with Notepad
whitout much problem. (Last time I read his code he didn't have much
textual content)

Can't say that from Flash.
[color=blue]
> Seriously though, wouldn't it be better to try and educate the people who
> post questions here instead of badgering them and scaring them off to less
> knowledgable sources that would actually encourage poor design.[/color]

Well, we are trying. Both to scare them not to use worse than useless
crap, and to educate them, why this and that is useless crap and what to
do instead. It tends to be easier to scare than educate, as people will
rather be scared, than educated...

(Take one poster that asks question about <evil thing>. Tell him that it
don't work and he might be sued. He may notice. Tell him that it would be
better to do <better thing>, and he keeps asking: "but how do I do <evil
thing>" )

--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Saapi lähettää meiliä, jos aihe ei liity ryhmään, tai on yksityinen
tjsp., mutta älä lähetä samaa viestiä meilitse ja ryhmään.

[Nick Kew]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

In article <hINkb.254$NJ1. 320140@newsfep2-gui.server.ntli .net>, one of infinite monkeys
at the keyboard of "Barry Pearson" <news@childsupp ortanalysis.co. uk> wrote:
[color=blue]
> I now tend to assume that Flash is used as a substitute for valuable content,[/color]

Bingo!

Welcome to the Experienced Users club. Now you too can take your share of
abuse from the "but everyone has XYZ..." brigade.

--
Nick Kew

In urgent need of paying work - see http://www.webthing.com/~nick/cv.html

[Tina Holmboe]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Dennis <theonlyDennis@ removeForSpam_m indspring.com> exclaimed in <4dl6pvoelutu67 7s8qt5nmrslke4k c83ie@4ax.com>:
[color=blue]
> OK Mr. Statistics, how many web surfers turn away when they see a
> Flash site? Give us a source and not just a personal opinion.[/color]

He won't, and he can't. And neither can *you* - which is the entire
point. The web, statistically, isn't accurate, and there is no way
to improve upon it.

Let us take the "fact" that IE is the most popular browser there is. If
you run a site with alot of visitors, look at your server logs, and
notice that IE has 80% of the market, you'd be well advised to remember
that there is *no way* you can know whether or not those 80% are not
really Lynx with a faked UA string.

You can assume it as likely, but you cannot *know*.

How about the statement "Most people use 800x600", which is often
taken at face value ? Well, the method used to *determine* this is to
ask the UA using Javascript. This means that:

(a) A site need to install the Javascript,
(b) An UA need to visit that site,
(c) The UA need to have Javascript enabled.

Sites like thecounter.com claim that, in some months, as many as 13% run
without Javascript enabled. This leaves us with several interesting
variables for (a), (b) and (c) above:

- Are sites that install the counter script typical of websites ?
- Are visitors to these sites typical of users ?
- What about the 13% that might have Javascript turned on or off ?

Those 13% are also determined by way of Javascript, btw ... you SURE
you want to trust statistics gathered on use of various web technologies ?



[color=blue][color=green]
>>Why do you post here if you don't want to listen to the feedback you
>>get?[/color]
>
> What have I said that makes you think that I don't want to listen? Is
> that I am taking a view different from the mainstream in this NG? Is
> that "not wanting to listen"?[/color]

It has less to do with "mainstream " and more to do with the topic of
these newsgroups. Mainly we deal with technical, objective, issues.

You're basically saying that the Earth is flat after testing the theory
with your Captain Zoom's Elite Corps of Engineers Chronoscope. It's not
going to win a popularity contest amongs a bunch of astronomers, I can
tell'ya.

--
- Tina Holmboe Greytower Technologies
tina@greytower. net http://www.greytower.net/
[+46] 0708 557 905

[Tina Holmboe]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Dennis <theonlyDennis@ removeForSpam_m indspring.com> exclaimed in <1nj6pvomj5sh8q mcir4p148ido40h h3p9j@4ax.com>:
[color=blue]
> I was wrong, it's 98.6%. And if that isn't enough, those other 1.4%
> are not locked out in any way. All they have to do is click on a link[/color]

You are wrong, yes. It isn't 98.6% - noone *know* how much it is.


[color=blue]
> that says "get Flash." But I would be very appreciative if you could
> elaborate on my "arrogance. " I really don't understand the hostility
> I have generated in this NG. How am I being arrogant?[/color]

Because you are saying: "I want to use a technology which is not part of
the standard web tools. Anyone else should just adapt to me"

Consider this. If every TV broadcast were, suddenly, in HDTV format
and the TV companies told you that "Oh, but all you have to do is get
a new TV set!" you'd be pretty miffed.

The analogy isn't perfect, of course, but think about it.


--
- Tina Holmboe Greytower Technologies
tina@greytower. net http://www.greytower.net/
[+46] 0708 557 905

[Alan J. Flavell]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Nick Kew wrote:
[color=blue]
> Welcome to the Experienced Users club. Now you too can take your share of
> abuse from the "but everyone has XYZ..." brigade.[/color]

Quite. However, "everyone has it" can be as much a threat as a
promise. If it was only those who really wanted "it" that had "it",
(for quite a number of different values of "it"), then one could
incorporate "it" with merry abandon, knowing that only those who
wanted it would get it.

But when "it" has been forced down everyone's throat, despite a clear
proportion of users hating "it", one needs to take much more care in
how one uses "it". N'est-ce pas?

[Isofarro]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Barry Pearson wrote:
[color=blue]
> Mark Parnell wrote:[color=green]
>> And of course, no matter how accurate the figures might or might not
>> be, they ignore one of the most important visitors to your site - the
>> search engine robots. I guarantee they don't have Flash installed.
>> :-)[/color]
>
> I have Flash installed. I also run with it switched off.[/color]

This is such a useful tool for Firebird:

http://texturizer.net/firebird/extensions/#Flash%20Click%20To%20View

almost as good as HTTP Live Headers


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[Barry Pearson]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Isofarro wrote:[color=blue]
> Barry Pearson wrote:[/color]
[snip][color=blue][color=green]
>> I have Flash installed. I also run with it switched off.[/color]
>
> This is such a useful tool for Firebird:
> http://texturizer.net/firebird/exten...ck%20To%20View
>
> almost as good as HTTP Live Headers[/color]

Thank you! Very nice. Now installed in my Firebird 0.7.

--
Barry Pearson

http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/

http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/

http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/