How to detect table width or height?

[Mark Parnell]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Sometime around Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:17:39 -0800, Dennis is reported to have
stated:
[color=blue]
> On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 12:46:51 +1000, Mark Parnell
> <webmaster@clar kecomputers.com .au> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>Not at all. The web is fluid by nature. If you don't specify fixed sizes,
>>then the page will flow automatically.[/color]
>
> While that is true, you must admit that most all the top websites opt
> for an "800-wide non-horizontal flowing" format (typically aligned
> left) and let any flowing happen vertically (and waste all the rest of
> the horizontal space). Why is that?[/color]

Yes, they do. So? As to why - who knows? Because they are too
narrow-minded, and stuck in the mid 90's? IMHO, much of the reason that
the large sites still have fixed-width, table-based layouts is simply
because of the time and effort that would be required to change it. That's
how sites were done in 1996, when many of these sites were done. Yes, many
of them may have changed the look of their sites since then, but not done a
complete redesign. We, however, have the opportunity to do things right
from the start.

The question you should be asking is not what do the major sites do, but
what is the best thing to do? The two are not necessarily the same. If
you have the ability to do something properly, why do it badly, just
because that's what everyone else does?
[color=blue][color=green]
>>And what of the users that don't have Flash? You are ignoring them?[/color]
>
> 97%+ of web users have Flash installed[/color]

Macromedia's figures, which are dubious at best. And what of search
engines? They don't have Flash installed. How are your potential visitors
going to find you in the first place?
[color=blue]
> and the rest can get it for free with a single click.[/color]

Not necessarily. What if they are at work, and the system administrator
does not allow them to download and install any software for security
reasons? What if they are blind, so use a speech browser? What if they
are on a slow connection, so cannot afford the time or money to download
Flash (or the animations once Flash is installed, for that matter).
[color=blue]
> Anyone who knowingly doesn't have it is
> just being honery. And for them, I'd say get PopUpCop.[/color]

If I knew what honery meant, I might be offended. :-)

Why pay money for a program that stops _some_ flash ads, when I can
uninstall Flash for free and miss them all? I have seen very few
legitimate uses for Flash, and many mis-uses, so see no reason to have it
installed. If that means I miss out on your site, fine. I'll just go to
the next one, that actually allows me to access the content.

--
Mark Parnell

http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au

[Dennis]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:08:33 -0500, kchayka <kcha-un-yka@sihope.com>
wrote:

[color=blue]
>
>With HTML, I have control over text size. I can make text whatever size
>it needs to be for me to read it. Flash can't do that.
>[/color]

You can put your own font buttons on your flash movie and change the
font size that way. Admitedly, it would be slicker if the user's
existing browser settings would do that automatically. But just out
of curiosity, what do you do about graphics?

Dennis

[Brian]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Dennis wrote:[color=blue]
>
> 97%+ of web users have Flash installed[/color]

Yeah, that's according to Macromedia, right?
[color=blue]
> and the rest can get it for
> free with a single click. Anyone who knowingly doesn't have it[/color]

"knowingly doesn't have it?" What, is it a crime?
[color=blue]
> is just being honery.[/color]

Here you've stumped me. I checked my dictionary, even checked 3
online references. No "honery." Did you mean ornery?

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[Dennis]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:23:01 +0300, Mikko Rantalainen <mira@st.jyu.fi >
wrote:
[color=blue]
>Well, color me skeptical but I have yet to see Flash used in such a way
>that the usability is *better* than without Flash. Could you give us a
>hint and throw us an URL to *any* site that uses Flash and has good
>usability in your opinion. I haven't yet seen any. [1]
>
>If there aren't any such site in existence yet, how did you figure out
>that you can come up with one or that even trying to do that with Flash
>would be a great idea?[/color]

I've used Flash for several years now to author a math book I'm
making. I'm doing the graphics in Flash. I just like it better than
other vector drawing programs. I've written a program in Visual
Foxpro that takes the Flash output (wmf's) into Corel Draw and
programatically puts the pages together using OLE Automation. (yeah,
it's quite a soup) Well, I started to make a "web application" that
performed like a windows app, and that's when I found out what Flash
can do in a browser. Flash was the only way I could "take over" the
user's screen from corner to corner the way an application does. I
can't give you websites that use Flash in the way I'm describing, so I
guess I'm talking about something new. But the capabilities of the
program are there.[color=blue]
>
>
>[1] The only thing that has even remotely nice features and uses Flash
>is http://www.kartoo.com/. I think that the usability could be much
>better but using Flash makes some sense in this case. (HTML version
>could be much better though, so the comparision between the Flash and
>HTML versions of that site isn't fair.)[/color]

Thanks for that katroo link. It sure looks great --about using it, I
don't know, I'll have to dig into it. At first glance, the art does
seem gratuituous but I'll have to dig into it to be fair.

Dennis

[Dennis]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:26:13 GMT, tina@greytower. net (Tina Holmboe)
wrote:
[color=blue]
>Dennis <theonlyDennis@ removeForSpam_m indspring.com> exclaimed in <1nj6pvomj5sh8q mcir4p148ido40h h3p9j@4ax.com>:
>[color=green]
>> I was wrong, it's 98.6%. And if that isn't enough, those other 1.4%
>> are not locked out in any way. All they have to do is click on a link[/color]
>
> You are wrong, yes. It isn't 98.6% - noone *know* how much it is.[/color]

Laura Gutman in Inside Dreamweaver (New Riders, 2002) says,"Macromedi a
claims that 98.6% of browsers have the Flash plugin, which is a
phenomenal number." I saw 97% indicated at MM's website.[color=blue][color=green]
>>
>> that says "get Flash." But I would be very appreciative if you could
>> elaborate on my "arrogance. " I really don't understand the hostility
>> I have generated in this NG. How am I being arrogant?[/color]
>
> Because you are saying: "I want to use a technology which is not part of
> the standard web tools. Anyone else should just adapt to me"[/color]

Not part of the standard web tools? Any thing that's got 97-98.6%
market penetration is pretty "standard".[color=blue]
>
> Consider this. If every TV broadcast were, suddenly, in HDTV format
> and the TV companies told you that "Oh, but all you have to do is get
> a new TV set!" you'd be pretty miffed.[/color]

Not if a new HDTV was free of charge.

Dennis

[Mark Parnell]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Sometime around Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:52:49 -0800, Dennis is reported to have
stated:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Consider this. If every TV broadcast were, suddenly, in HDTV format
>> and the TV companies told you that "Oh, but all you have to do is get
>> a new TV set!" you'd be pretty miffed.[/color]
>
> Not if a new HDTV was free of charge.
>[/color]

But I have no way of getting it home. Or it won't fit in my loungeroom.

--
Mark Parnell

http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au

[Erik Funkenbusch]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:29:34 -0800, Dennis wrote:
[color=blue]
> But are
> you familiar with the zoom feature in Flash? With it you can make
> EVERYTHING larger, not just text. So images (which aren't affected by
> the user's preferred text size) also get magnified for the user's
> benefit. It seems like kind of a wash in my opinion.[/color]

Actually, it's very easy to design your site to scale images along with the
text based on the users preferred text size. You just specify your image
sizes in em's instead of pixels. I believe Eric Meyer had an article about
this that I read somewhere. Of course this technique isn't as precise as
pixels.

[Dennis]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:01:54 +1000, Mark Parnell
<webmaster@clar kecomputers.com .au> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Sometime around Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:17:23 -0700, Dennis is reported to have
>stated:
>[color=green]
>> http://www.macromedia.com/software/p...s/flashplayer/[/color]
>
>This report has been discussed here previously. The statistics are based
>on 2000 participants - not a very large number considering the total number
>of internet users - who are supposedly a "representa tive Internet sample".[/color]

Oh come on.[color=blue]
>
>And of course, no matter how accurate the figures might or might not be,
>they ignore one of the most important visitors to your site - the search
>engine robots. I guarantee they don't have Flash installed. :-)[/color]

Google reads <a href> links in a swf (flash) file but it doesn't index
the general text that appears. You're right, that's a HUGE downside.
In fact, I have to make my home page in HTML so google can see it.
After that, I can branch out to the flash pages. In the meantime,
Google and the other robots out there ought to increase their
vocabulary and start reading those swf files!

Dennis

[Dennis]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:00:01 -0400, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown @fastmail.fm> wrote:
[color=blue]
>In article <4dl6pvoelutu67 7s8qt5nmrslke4k c83ie@4ax.com> in
>comp.infosyste ms.www.authoring.html, Dennis
><theonlyDennis @removeForSpam_ mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>Stan Brown had written:[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>But what will _really_ happen is that people will go to your site,
>>>see that it depends on Flash, and go elsewhere, unless you offer
>>>content that they want and can't get anywhere else, which seems
>>>unlikely.[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
>>OK Mr. Statistics, how many web surfers turn away when they see a
>>Flash site? Give us a source and not just a personal opinion.[/color]
>
>I don't have a number -- unlike you, I'm willing to admit that I
>don't know.
>But several people in this very thread have said they do not have
>flash or do not routinely use it. That should tell you something.[/color]


I did provide a number. Now maybe Macromedia cooked it a little, but
with a figure as high as 97%, even if they cooked it a lot, it would
still be a very high percentage of users. My remark was to the point
that I suspect that users of this NG --affecionados of the web-- are
not typical of your average user. In my experience watching high
school age people surf the web, they LOVE the flash sites --even if
for all the "wrong reasons". My point is, I don't think most people
tun away from a flash site just becuase it's flash --unless you have
evidence to the contrary.
[color=blue]
>"He who has ears to hear, let him hear."[/color]

One could say that to anybody about anything. Ergo, it doesn't mean a
lot dude.

Dennis

[Mark Parnell]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Sometime around Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:26:47 -0800, Dennis is reported to have
stated:[color=blue]
>
> I did provide a number. Now maybe Macromedia cooked it a little, but
> with a figure as high as 97%, even if they cooked it a lot, it would
> still be a very high percentage of users.[/color]

But still less than 100%.

--
Mark Parnell

http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au

[Dennis]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:29:31 +0100, "Barry Pearson"
<news@childsupp ortanalysis.co. uk> wrote:
[color=blue]
>The key is that they don't like it, not that they know how to disable it.
>Users who don't like Flash but can't disable it can often just go elsewhere,
>as I typically did before I disabled it.
>
>The point about the small sample is well made. Dennis is trying to solve
>problems with his web sites. Success or failure depends on what he does to the
>web sites, and how his target audience reacts to what he does. So Dennis'
>challenge is to get the best advice he can, develop his web sites accordingly,
>and hope that the target audience likes the result.[/color]

Ideally, my visitors won't even know they're seeing Flash. It it
loads quick and I design it right (use system fonts, etc), it will be
just another web site as far as they're is concerned.
[color=blue]
>Debates here don't influence his target audience. They will accept or reject
>his web sites completely oblivious to who has scored how many debating points
>in Usenet! So he needs to judge whether his potential users like Flash - not
>try to persuade people here to like Flash, or criticise them by implication.[/color]

On this topic, I got an excellent book, Inside Dreamweaver MX by Laura
Gutman, Patricia J. Ayers, Donald S. Booth (New Riders, 2002). In
chapter 8 - Design Issues- they make the distinction between a
user-centered versus a company-centered information structure. For
your website to be truly usable, you have to think about it from the
point of view of what the user wants from it --not how it is organized
in terms of departments and so on. (Or if it has Flash or CSS)
Conventional software often makes the same mistake of laying out a
program's functionality much too closely in terms of the subroutines
and functions that make it work. It's an engineer's sort of mistake.
Thinking about my site in terms of the different sorts of people who
will come to it (what they WANT) instead of in terms of what the site
has available, has changed the way I look at the site's structure.

I have to say, the notion of content being separate from presentation
--the fundamental CSS ethic if I can call it that-- has awesome
potential as far I can see it. We have graphic based HTML editors out
there --like Dreamweaver-- that take intuitive visual arrangements and
extricate from them the "ugly code" that is the lingua franca of
browsers. Cool. So now where are the "content editors" into which I
can drop my content (my innocent little lists that I want to see
wrapped in column form) and have software beasts churn out the ungodly
code? Give me that and I'll drop Flash in a second. Unless of
course the software spits out a swf!

Dennis

[Christoph Paeper]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

*Dennis* <theonlyDennis@ removeForSpam_m indspring.com>:[color=blue]
>
> Google and the other robots out there ought to increase their
> vocabulary and start reading those swf files![/color]

Yeah, right. Why should they? Most of current Flash content on the Web is
pink noise and there're no signs for it getting better, thus it would be
extremely stupid for a SE provider to put a lot of energy and money into
attempts to parse it properly.

--
"Music is essentially useless, as life is."
George Santayana

[Alan J. Flavell]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
[color=blue]
> Actually, it's very easy to design your site to scale images along with the
> text based on the users preferred text size. You just specify your image
> sizes in em's instead of pixels.[/color]

Indeed, though the quality of the results in popular browsers may
leave something to be desired.
[color=blue]
> Of course this technique isn't as precise as pixels.[/color]

It's more precisely based on the user's text size preference setting.
With display dpi settings varying over at least a 2:1 range - more in
some cases, and almost no display systems being calibrated by the user
to the correct physical size, what better measure of user
acceptability can you offer?

[Shawn K. Quinn]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Dennis wrote:
[color=blue]
> On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:50:26 -0400, Stan Brown
> <the_stan_brown @fastmail.fm> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>It will, for people who have Flash installed and turned on.
>>
>>Many people don't have it installed; many who do have it installed
>>have turned it off because so much Flash is just annoying time-
>>wasting "kewl" visual effect.
>>
>>So your choice by using Flash is for complete success or complete
>>failure, as opposed to 100% success or partial success if you don't
>>use Flash.[/color]
>
> Something like 97% of web surfers out there do.[/color]

You have no way of knowing this with any reasonable degree of confidence.
[color=blue]
> And those few who don't can easily get it.[/color]

Even on non-i386 Unix boxes? Text-only browsers? Mobile phones? PDAs? Aural
browsers? How about browsing situations where the user does not have
permission to install arbitrary third party software, where the Flash
plug-in, even if available for the given OS, is not installed?
[color=blue]
> End of problem.[/color]

No, sir. Beginning of problems. *Your* problems.

--
Shawn K. Quinn

[Mikko Rantalainen]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Dennis wrote:[color=blue]
> On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:08:33 -0500, kchayka <kcha-un-yka@sihope.com>
> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>With HTML, I have control over text size. I can make text whatever size
>>it needs to be for me to read it. Flash can't do that.[/color]
>
> You can put your own font buttons on your flash movie and change the
> font size that way. Admitedly, it would be slicker if the user's
> existing browser settings would do that automatically. But just out
> of curiosity, what do you do about graphics?[/color]

What graphics? Are you suggesting that somebody is still hardcoding
textual content inside images? In that case the correct way to read the
content with high accessibility is to turn off the images and read ALT
content instead. You know, the little part of the page that's *required
by the spec* and which is meant to be used if, for any reason, the
images cannot be used or understood.

Yes, you can do pretty much anything with flash, including implementing
your own user interface for accessibility, but no existing site does
that. I'm pretty sure that most of us trashing flash think that flash
should include that kind of features by default. Those features would be
required for pretty much any flash site and those controls are just a
little too important to look, feel and behave a little bit different on
every site. If those controls are implemented by *page author* at all,
that is.

In my experience, most of the time, flash is selected because it makes
easier for the content author to fix layout, allows animations and other
little gimmicks without much work. The key point here is that flash is
usually selected because it allows doing those things *easier* than with
some other method. If the tool is selected because it's easier, is it
any wonder that none of those authors did implement the accessibility
part that the flash plugin *should have been* already implemented.


In addition, if you decide to implement whole "site" with flash, you
have to provide something very special to keep the user long enough to
learn to use the interface you provide for adjusting the font size to
their liking. That is, if they have flash already installed before
entering the "site".

And no matter what you do, you'll break some of the user interface the
user is already familiar with; I've configured my browser the way I like
to use it. And if some site doesn't support *mouse wheel* (no flash
"site" has done that, this far), doesn't support my *mouse gestures* (no
flash "site" can support those, because the flash plugin captures the
mouse events but has no way to know what to do with those because I've
customized my gestures from default) and it doesn't support the normal
UI actions to change font size. Yes, for the average frustrated chump
playing whack-the-popup, your flash "site" might be a step up, but for
me, I believe a well done web site based on recommended (X)HTML
technology, gives me a better user experience.

(The reason I call those as flash "sites" is that I really cannot
consider something being a "site" if that has only one page. You know
what happens to your great application the moment user presses the back
button just once? The whole application vanishes without a warning! A
correctly designed web application -- that is, an application with user
interface implemented with (X)HTML -- allows the user to press his back
button any moment he sees fit and the application should return to
previous view or dialog. Also, the user should be allowed to branch the
session: many web applications break if you select "Open in a New
Window" on any link inside the application user interface and continue
to use paraller sessions of the application. Making browser based user
interfaces without resorting javascript hacks for a single browser brand
and still keeping the user interface looking nice is hard. Trust me,
I've done such work for a living for a couple of years.)

--
Mikko