How to detect table width or height?

[Mark Parnell]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Sometime around Sun, 19 Oct 2003 19:37:52 -0700, Dennis is reported to have
stated:[color=blue]
> Without Flash (or a more mature CSS) I have to aim at the
> middle of the bell curve (what, 800 by 600?) and let automatic
> scrolling and huge empty borders do the rest.[/color]

Not at all. The web is fluid by nature. If you don't specify fixed sizes,
then the page will flow automatically.
[color=blue]
> It's very ironic
> because I attempting to accomplish in a more thoroughgoing way
> precisely what you are saying that I am ignoring.[/color]

And what of the users that don't have Flash? You are ignoring them?

--
Mark Parnell

http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au

[Dennis]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 04:44:06 -0500, kchayka <kcha-un-yka@sihope.com>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>You are mistaken if you think Flash is the answer. You cannot predict
>what the user's preferred window size, text size, or any other
>environmenta l variable may be. The very nature of Flash encourages
>inaccessible , inflexible layouts. The user's preference settings are
>not part of the equation, thus Flash cannot adapt to the user's settings.
>
>This means that you will create a site that only "works" in a very
>narrow band of screen resolution, window size and text size. The rest
>of us will be out of luck. If your goal is usability, then your best
>bet is a liquid layout that adjusts well to different window and text
>sizes. This Flash cannot do, at least I have never seen it done.[/color]

Now I think I see the problem. You and others at this NG have seen so
much bad Flash out there that you have a misunderstandin gs about the
program itself. For instance, did you know that you can stretch the
Flash "object" to fill up the entire browser window? And the objects
in it won't themselves have to stretch. At any moment you have access
to the exact pixel dimensions of the user's window. You program Flash
to respond accordingly (if you're a good programmer and care about
what people of all browser sizes and shapes see). Alas, most Flash
uses are obnoxious ads (I use PopUp Cop!) or fixed size movies that
are centered in the browser window. It doesn't have to be that at
all.[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>> And steps can be taken to make it also accessible.[/color]
>
>Whatever you do on this front will be inadequate, since Flash's
>accessibilit y features on the authoring side are inadequate.
>Accessibilit y features in the Flash player are pretty much non-existent,
>so we users are at your mercy.[/color]

There are plusses and minuses on that and I think it comes out a
wash. For example, did you know that you can zoom in on a Flash
movie? I mean way close, and scroll through words 5 inches high.
HTML can't do that. As far as screen readers go, only one I know of
can read Flash movies now, but if someone has to use a screen reader
we're talking 100% text now and it wouldn't be hard to provide an
alternate link for that.
[color=blue]
>I have yet to find a Flash site that is usable for me. I am not very
>optimistic that whatever you come up with will be any different.[/color]

Keep an open mind, I'll be back with a URL before long....

Dennis

[Dennis]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 03:11:22 GMT, tina@greytower. net (Tina Holmboe)
wrote:
[color=blue]
>Dennis <theonlyDennis@ removeForSpam_m indspring.com> exclaimed in <5281pvk3bu9udn l822tpg25vucctb sovv7@4ax.com>:
>[color=green]
>> Something like 97% of web surfers out there do. And those few who
>> don't can easily get it. End of problem.[/color]
>
> Flash is not available for all users or all UAs. Depending on it is
> not useful.
>
> Of course, with the arrogance your posting shows, "useful" wouldn't
> be your first priority.[/color]

I was wrong, it's 98.6%. And if that isn't enough, those other 1.4%
are not locked out in any way. All they have to do is click on a link
that says "get Flash." But I would be very appreciative if you could
elaborate on my "arrogance. " I really don't understand the hostility
I have generated in this NG. How am I being arrogant?

Dennis

[Brian]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Dennis wrote:[color=blue]
>
> But with Flash, I have complete control in
> filling up the window that the user gives me.[/color]

That's swell. But since Flash has nothing to do with html, nor
stylesheets, why don't you bring your nifty "solution" elsewhere?

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[Dennis]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 05:51:20 GMT, Brian
<usenet1@juliet remblay.com.inv alid-remove-this-part> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Dennis wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> Something like 97% of web surfers out there do.[/color]
>
>Source, please. Or did you just make this up?[/color]

Here ya go,

http://www.macromedia.com/software/player_census/flashplayer/

[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>> And those few who don't can easily get it.[/color]
>
>If it's available, they can consider getting it. Whether they
>actually go to the trouble of downloading and installing software for
>your content is another matter.[/color]

Well all you can do is make something available to people. If they
refuse to use it, that's not your problem. The Flash player is free
and easy to get and install.[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>> End of problem.[/color]
>
>Keep deluding yourself.[/color]

How am I deluding myself?

[Dennis]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:00:43 -0400, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown @fastmail.fm> wrote:
[color=blue]
>In article <5281pvk3bu9udn l822tpg25vucctb sovv7@4ax.com> in
>comp.infosyste ms.www.authoring.html, Dennis
><theonlyDennis @removeForSpam_ mindspring.com> wrote:[color=green]
>>On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:50:26 -0400, Stan Brown
>><the_stan_bro wn@fastmail.fm> wrote:[color=darkred]
>>>So your choice by using Flash is for complete success or complete
>>>failure, as opposed to 100% success or partial success if you don't
>>>use Flash.[/color]
>>
>>Something like 97% of web surfers out there do. And those few who
>>don't can easily get it. End of problem.[/color]
>
>97%, huh? Why did you make up that particular number? Why didn't you
>say 95%? or 99.2% or 67.1%?
>[/color]
Guilty until proven innocent, huh? Alright, may it please the court:

http://www.macromedia.com/software/player_census/flashplayer/

[color=blue]
>But what will _really_ happen is that people will go to your site,
>see that it depends on Flash, and go elsewhere, unless you offer
>content that they want and can't get anywhere else, which seems
>unlikely.[/color]

OK Mr. Statistics, how many web surfers turn away when they see a
Flash site? Give us a source and not just a personal opinion.[color=blue]
>
>Why do you post here if you don't want to listen to the feedback you
>get?[/color]

What have I said that makes you think that I don't want to listen? Is
that I am taking a view different from the mainstream in this NG? Is
that "not wanting to listen"?

[Mark Parnell]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Sometime around Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:17:23 -0700, Dennis is reported to have
stated:
[color=blue]
> http://www.macromedia.com/software/p...s/flashplayer/[/color]

This report has been discussed here previously. The statistics are based
on 2000 participants - not a very large number considering the total number
of internet users - who are supposedly a "representa tive Internet sample".
I find that unlikely. I bet they all have perfect/near-perfect eyesight,
for starters.

And of course, no matter how accurate the figures might or might not be,
they ignore one of the most important visitors to your site - the search
engine robots. I guarantee they don't have Flash installed. :-)

--
Mark Parnell

http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au

[Brian]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Dennis wrote:[color=blue]
> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 05:51:20 GMT, Brian
> <usenet1@juliet remblay.com.inv alid-remove-this-part> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Dennis wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Something like 97% of web surfers out there do.[/color]
>>
>> Source, please. Or did you just make this up?[/color]
>
> Here ya go,
> http://www.macromedia.com/software/p...s/flashplayer/[/color]

rotfl
A real unbiased source that is!
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Whether they actually go to the trouble of downloading and
>> installing software for your content is another matter.[/color]
>
> Well all you can do is make something available to people.[/color]

My sites are written in HTML. No additional software required.
[color=blue]
> If they refuse to use it, that's not your problem.[/color]

It is if I want them to visit.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[Mikko Rantalainen]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Dennis wrote:[color=blue]
> On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 07:26:10 -0500, kchayka <kcha-un-yka@sihope.com>
> wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>>You have decided that this look you envision is more important than
>>usability and accessibility?[/color]
>
> No. I am doing it in Flash precisely for usability. A page is more
> usable if the user can see at a glance where everything is and not
> have to scroll around to find it. And steps can be taken to make it
> also accessible.[/color]

Well, color me skeptical but I have yet to see Flash used in such a way
that the usability is *better* than without Flash. Could you give us a
hint and throw us an URL to *any* site that uses Flash and has good
usability in your opinion. I haven't yet seen any. [1]

If there aren't any such site in existence yet, how did you figure out
that you can come up with one or that even trying to do that with Flash
would be a great idea?


[1] The only thing that has even remotely nice features and uses Flash
is http://www.kartoo.com/. I think that the usability could be much
better but using Flash makes some sense in this case. (HTML version
could be much better though, so the comparision between the Flash and
HTML versions of that site isn't fair.)

--
Mikko

[Barry Pearson]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Mark Parnell wrote:[color=blue]
> Sometime around Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:17:23 -0700, Dennis is reported
> to have stated:
>[color=green]
>> http://www.macromedia.com/software/p...s/flashplayer/[/color]
>
> This report has been discussed here previously. The statistics are
> based on 2000 participants - not a very large number considering the
> total number of internet users - who are supposedly a "representa tive
> Internet sample". I find that unlikely. I bet they all have
> perfect/near-perfect eyesight, for starters.
>
> And of course, no matter how accurate the figures might or might not
> be, they ignore one of the most important visitors to your site - the
> search engine robots. I guarantee they don't have Flash installed.
> :-)[/color]

I have Flash installed. I also run with it switched off. So statistics on
Flash availability may exaggerate its use.

I have only come across 2 sites in the last few months where this has been a
problem. In one case, I persuaded the site owner to add alternative links (it
used Flash buttons). The other case is ... Macromedia! I have to switch on
Flash to access the Dreamweaver extensions. It is the only case for a long
time where I have needed to use Flash.

I now tend to assume that Flash is used as a substitute for valuable content,
and treat the site accordingly. I may sometimes be wrong (eg. Macromedia), and
so miss something important. But there are millions of other sites out there,
and I can't evaluate each one thoroughly. So, like many people, I apply crude
measures - and that includes "Flash = bad news".

--
Barry Pearson

http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/

http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/

http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/

[Jonathan Snook]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

"Barry Pearson" <news@childsupp ortanalysis.co. uk> wrote in message
news:hINkb.254$ NJ1.320140@news fep2-gui.server.ntli .net...[color=blue]
> I have Flash installed. I also run with it switched off. So statistics on
> Flash availability may exaggerate its use.[/color]

Why do you run with it switched off?

[Jonathan Snook]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

"Brian" <usenet1@juliet remblay.com.inv alid-remove-this-part> wrote in
message > My sites are written in HTML. No additional software required.

Really? Cuz I had to download this thing called a "browser" to view it. I
suppose I could've just used Notepad to view your site but it seems that a
"browser" enhances my ability to view your site.

Seriously though, wouldn't it be better to try and educate the people who
post questions here instead of badgering them and scaring them off to less
knowledgable sources that would actually encourage poor design.

Jonathan

[Jonathan Snook]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

"Mikko Rantalainen" <mira@st.jyu.fi > wrote in message[color=blue]
> Well, color me skeptical but I have yet to see Flash used in such a way
> that the usability is *better* than without Flash. Could you give us a
> hint and throw us an URL to *any* site that uses Flash and has good
> usability in your opinion. I haven't yet seen any. [1][/color]

The charts on http://www.infosoftglobal.com/FusionCharts/Gallery.html can be
an effective way of displaying tabular or more complex information. I've
also seen a Flash-based application for reporting gate information for an
airport. And I like the navigation on Macromedia.com. I've also seem some
chat apps (like the one at teknision.com) that would be downright hideous in
HTML.

Your Jakob-ian response that because the technology is abused it shouldn't
be used is just as applicable to HTML.

Jonathan

[Barry Pearson]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Jonathan Snook wrote:[color=blue]
> "Barry Pearson" <news@childsupp ortanalysis.co. uk> wrote in message
> news:hINkb.254$ NJ1.320140@news fep2-gui.server.ntli .net...[color=green]
>> I have Flash installed. I also run with it switched off. So
>> statistics on Flash availability may exaggerate its use.[/color]
>
> Why do you run with it switched off?[/color]

Because I want as much control as possible over movement & delays. (Until
recently, when I was being a "web user" rather than a "web developer", I used
{IE 6 + Free Surfer + Google Toolbar}. Free Surfer also enabled me the inhibit
animated GIFs. Now I'm using {IE 6 + Avant Browser + Google Toolbar}, and
can't do this).

I am normally seeking information presented in a sensible way, not
entertainment or special effects. For the latter, I watch "Matrix Reloaded"
(wow!) or whatever. I want things that stay still, and stay quiet. (I dislike
being in the same office as a moving screen-saver, or the same room as a TV
with the sound turned down).

Flash is used for various purposes, from Flash Buttons (is there a point to
these?), through showing information in a value-added way, to showing
information that could at least as well be shown without Flash (in which case
some sites offer the option), to just demonstrating the size of the
developer's ego (enough said). The genuine "value-added" case appears to exist
for specialised purposes, but for some reason I am not interested those
particular specialisms.

The Macromedia site is just about one of the few sites that demands Flash that
I can't walk away from. Grrrrggh!

--
Barry Pearson

http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/

http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/

http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/

[Matthias Gutfeldt]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Jonathan Snook wrote:[color=blue]
> Seriously though, wouldn't it be better to try and educate the people who
> post questions here instead of badgering them and scaring them off to less[/color]

Is "badgering" the Word of the Week or something?


Matthias