Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

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  • Barbara de Zoete

    #61
    Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

    On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 14:32:35 -0500, Harlan Messinger
    <hmessinger.rem ovethis@comcast .net> wrote:
    [color=blue]
    > Barbara de Zoete wrote:[color=green]
    >> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 13:51:35 -0500, Harlan Messinger
    >> <hmessinger.rem ovethis@comcast .net> wrote:
    >>[color=darkred]
    >>> me wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> As a visitor to my site you will be expected to abide by my rules.[/color]
    >>[color=darkred]
    >>> As someone who presumably *wants* people to visit his site, your attitude
    >>> seems counterproducti ve. If every time friends of yours visited your home,
    >>> you confronted them at the door with "As long as you are in my house you
    >>> will abide by my rules, and if you don't want to, then you can leave," and
    >>> then told them they had to take off their shoes and wash their hands, how
    >>> many of them do you think would stick around?[/color]
    >>
    >> I automatically adapt to house rules of people I visit, if I can make them
    >> out.[/color]
    >
    > So do I. It doesn't follow from that, that I would continue to be friends with
    > someone who feels that it's appropriate to treat *his* friends as I described
    > above.
    >[/color]

    Well s/he has te be a very very good friend for me to be able to cope with an
    attitude like that :-) But even if not made explicite, are house rules not very
    strict sometimes? If only I take a couple of friends with kids in mind, and see
    how it changed house rules. As a visitor you are expected to abide, even if you
    didn't take part in the evolution of the new set of rules, but just drop in
    every odd few months or so.
    Other rules are very implicite but never the less very strict too: you can look
    all you want, but never take with you (books, CD's, pictures, paintings,
    silverware, the master bedroom furniture for all I care :-) There are places you
    don't go without your hosts, like the bedrooms, the kitchen (initially; if a
    closer relationship evolves you can start going there on your own).

    Just saying that a lot of rules are very very strict and you do abide by them
    and never mock them, or only on a rare occation. You probably have lots of them
    too, applicable to your home (which just happens to be your castle). And
    wouldn't the joke be on you if someone came by and walked off with a book of
    yours or with your blue jeans and underpants. :-)

    There is this general understanding that you don't take what is not yours to
    have. I recon this counts for pictures on the internet. It annoys me too that
    some code monkey at Microsoft thought of this toolbar, that makes it very easy
    to copy any picture on my site. It is almost an invitation to copy. I don't
    think copying should or even can be prevented, but a blunt invitation goes too
    far IMO.

    So I too hid that darn toolbar using the peace of code that is fully understood
    by IE. Appearently Microsoft doesn't really mind me doing that.

    <hides/>
    [color=blue]
    > There is the occasional person who has one or two special requirements. Such a
    > person says, apologetically, "I hope you don't mind, but my carpetting gets
    > soiled easily and is really hard to clean. Would you mind taking off your
    > shoes before coming inside?"[/color]

    Wow, you have polite friends :-)
    [color=blue]
    > Which is very different from the attitude expressed by "me".[/color]

    Well, that bit I agree with fully. Attitude of this 'me' person is not very
    friendly.

    --
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    | weblog | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html |
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    `-------------------------------------------------- --<--@ ------------'

    Comment

    • Harlan Messinger

      #62
      Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

      Barbara de Zoete wrote:[color=blue]
      > On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 14:32:35 -0500, Harlan Messinger
      > <hmessinger.rem ovethis@comcast .net> wrote:
      >[color=green]
      >> Barbara de Zoete wrote:[color=darkred]
      >>>
      >>> I automatically adapt to house rules of people I visit, if I can make
      >>> them out.[/color]
      >>
      >> So do I. It doesn't follow from that, that I would continue to be
      >> friends with someone who feels that it's appropriate to treat *his*
      >> friends as I described above.[/color]
      >
      > Well s/he has te be a very very good friend for me to be able to cope
      > with an attitude like that :-) But even if not made explicite, are
      > house rules not very strict sometimes? If only I take a couple of
      > friends with kids in mind, and see how it changed house rules. As a
      > visitor you are expected to abide, even if you didn't take part in the
      > evolution of the new set of rules, but just drop in every odd few
      > months or so.[/color]

      I just noticed that we're failing to make the distinction between rules
      about how the visitor behaves in the host's home and what the host
      expects to do to the visitor. It's one thing to ask me to put my glass
      on a coaster or stay off the phone. It's another thing for my host to
      spray me with deodorant, to bind my hands to keep me from touching his
      belongings, or bathe the room in a magnetic field that disrupts my
      watch. The latter actions are more comparable to what we were discussing
      with respect to visiting a web site.

      [snip]
      [color=blue]
      >[color=green]
      >> There is the occasional person who has one or two special
      >> requirements. Such a person says, apologetically, "I hope you don't
      >> mind, but my carpetting gets soiled easily and is really hard to
      >> clean. Would you mind taking off your shoes before coming inside?"[/color]
      >
      > Wow, you have polite friends :-)[/color]

      Generally I do, yes.

      Comment

      • kchayka

        #63
        Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

        Harlan Messinger wrote:[color=blue]
        > me wrote:[color=green]
        >>
        >> As a visitor to my site you will be expected to abide by my rules.[/color]
        >
        > If every time friends of yours visited your home...[/color]

        This might be an OK analogy if it's a personal web site, but not if it's
        a business site.

        In that case, it would be like a customer going to someone's office or
        brick-and-morter store. There, the visitor is more likely to be
        kow-towed to rather than the other way around.

        --
        Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
        Please reply to the group so everyone can share.

        Comment

        • Jan Roland Eriksson

          #64
          Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

          On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:46:26 -0600, "me" <anonymous@_.co m> wrote:

          [...]
          [color=blue]
          >As a visitor to my site you will be expected to abide by my rules.[/color]

          You have got this all backwards.

          One of the original ideas for defining what was to become the www was
          that it is the www authors "creation" that gets invited to visit a
          clients home and browser.

          Analogous; if you get invited to visit some ones home you are supposed
          to show up with a polite behavior. You are not expected to start telling
          your host that s/he needs to repaint the interior, change carpets on the
          floor, replace their choice of artwork etc.

          The www works the same, after all it is based on client server
          technology i.e. the client rules, not the server.
          [color=blue]
          >Disabling the IE image bar is one consequence of this.[/color]

          Nothing ever presented on the www, with an authors argument that it
          needs to be protected, is worth protecting in the first place.
          [color=blue]
          >Since this condition only lasts for the duration of your visit...[/color]

          Beep! Error! YM "for the duration of /your visit/" in someone else's
          domain.

          --
          Rex


          Comment

          • Barbara de Zoete

            #65
            Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

            On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 21:29:36 +0100, Jan Roland Eriksson <jrexon@newsguy .com>
            wrote:
            [color=blue]
            > On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:46:26 -0600, "me" <anonymous@_.co m> wrote:
            >[/color]

            [ nice arguments about who is visiting who ]
            [color=blue][color=green]
            >> Disabling the IE image bar is one consequence of this.[/color]
            >
            > Nothing ever presented on the www, with an authors argument that it
            > needs to be protected, is worth protecting in the first place.[/color]

            By disabling the toolbar, the image is not copy protected at all. If someone
            feels a need to copy, they can do.
            IMO disabling that image toolbar is not about protection. It is about deleting
            an invitation to do something I don't like. Even if I'm in someones home, I
            don't like them browsing my purse or picking my pockets. This darn toolbar tells
            them it is technically very simple to do so.


            --
            ,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.
            | weblog | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html |
            | webontwerp | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html |
            |zweefvliegen | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html |
            `-------------------------------------------------- --<--@ ------------'

            Comment

            • me

              #66
              Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

              "Darin McGrew" <mcgrew@stanfor dalumni.org> wrote in message
              news:d07jq5$ngb $1@blue.rahul.n et...[color=blue]
              > "Harlan Messinger" <hmessinger.rem ovethis@comcast .net> wrote:[color=green][color=darkred]
              > >> Therein lies the problem: You think my browser becomes part of your[/color][/color][/color]
              site[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
              > >> when I visit it. It doesn't. And I don't know before reaching your
              > >> site that you plan to muck with my stuff when I get there.[/color][/color]
              >
              > me <anonymous@_.co m> wrote:[color=green]
              > > As a visitor to my site you will be expected to abide by my rules.[/color][/color]
              Disabling[color=blue][color=green]
              > > the IE image bar is one consequence of this. Since this condition only[/color][/color]
              lasts[color=blue][color=green]
              > > for the duration of your visit you will not suffer any permanent harm.[/color]
              >
              > As a visitor to my browser, your site will be expected to abide by my
              > rules. Remaining subject to features built into my browser (whatever they
              > might be) is one consequence of this. Since this condition only lasts for
              > the duration of your site's visit, you will not suffer any permanent harm.
              > Welcome to the WWW.[/color]

              Humorous but missguided since I pay the hosting fee, create/provide the
              content and you are a visitor.
              [color=blue]
              > See also http://webtips.dantobias.com/force.html[/color]

              It is possible to "force" some of that with IE and as long as it's not done
              in a malicious manner I see nothing wrong with that. As a professional
              designer (yes I do get paid occasionally) I want to control the look of my
              site as much as possible. If I can also take some non invasive steps to
              protect my IP such as using a script that alerts the user that they must pay
              for my photos then I see no harm in that eithier. IMO any browser that
              prevents these simple measures is broken but YMMV and it obviously does..

              Disabling the image toolbar or respecting my copyright by not stealing my IP
              are piddling things to ask of any visitor. I don't install cookies or
              anything else nor do I violate my visitors privacy like many (most?) sites
              do. I fail to see why there is so much whining about such inconsequential
              matters.
              Signed,
              me


              Comment

              • kaeli

                #67
                Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

                In article <opsm2x0hnfx5vg ts@zoete_b>, b_de_zoete@hotm ail.com enlightened us
                with...[color=blue]
                > By disabling the toolbar, the image is not copy protected at all. If someone
                > feels a need to copy, they can do.
                > IMO disabling that image toolbar is not about protection. It is about deleting
                > an invitation to do something I don't like. Even if I'm in someones home, I
                > don't like them browsing my purse or picking my pockets. This darn toolbar tells
                > them it is technically very simple to do so.
                >[/color]

                why don't you just use MSIE code to do it then?

                You can make your page not display the image toolbar on an image-by-image
                basis by adding GALLERYIMG="no" to the <IMG> tag, as shown in the following
                code example:

                <IMG SRC="mypicture. jpg" HEIGHT="100px" WIDTH="100px" GALLERYIMG="no" >

                --
                --
                ~kaeli~
                Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishab le
                from magic.



                Comment

                • kaeli

                  #68
                  Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

                  In article <11297h29fko8sb 2@corp.supernew s.com>, anonymous@_.com enlightened
                  us with...[color=blue]
                  > How do I prevent the save/print/email/mypictures toolbar from popping up
                  > when IE users place their cursor over photos at my website? Thank you in
                  > advance for your help.
                  > Signed,
                  > me
                  >
                  >
                  >[/color]

                  Try

                  [quote src="http://blogs.msdn.com/lisawoll/archive/2004/11/09/254733.aspx"]
                  You can make your page not display the image toolbar on an image-by-image
                  basis by adding GALLERYIMG="no" to the <IMG> tag, as shown in the following
                  code example:

                  <IMG SRC="mypicture. jpg" HEIGHT="100px" WIDTH="100px" GALLERYIMG="no" >
                  [/quote]

                  --
                  --
                  ~kaeli~
                  Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishab le
                  from magic.



                  Comment

                  • Rob_W

                    #69
                    Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

                    me wrote:
                    {snipped][color=blue]
                    > It is possible to "force" some of that with IE and as long as it's not done
                    > in a malicious manner I see nothing wrong with that. As a professional
                    > designer (yes I do get paid occasionally) I want to control the look of my
                    > site as much as possible.
                    >
                    >[/color]

                    Did you ever read this article?:
                    Web designers often bemoan the malleable nature of the web, which seems to defy our efforts at strict control over layout and typography. But maybe the problem is not the web. Maybe the problem is …


                    If you'd care to read it, I'd like to know your views about the subject;
                    it's about "Controllin g Web Pages"

                    Rob

                    Comment

                    • Els

                      #70
                      Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

                      kaeli wrote:
                      [color=blue]
                      > In article <opsm2x0hnfx5vg ts@zoete_b>,
                      > b_de_zoete@hotm ail.com enlightened us with...[color=green]
                      >> By disabling the toolbar, the image is not copy protected
                      >> at all. If someone feels a need to copy, they can do.
                      >> IMO disabling that image toolbar is not about protection.
                      >> It is about deleting an invitation to do something I
                      >> don't like. Even if I'm in someones home, I don't like
                      >> them browsing my purse or picking my pockets. This darn
                      >> toolbar tells them it is technically very simple to do
                      >> so.
                      >>[/color]
                      >
                      > why don't you just use MSIE code to do it then?
                      >
                      >
                      > You can make your page not display the image toolbar on an
                      > image-by-image basis by adding GALLERYIMG="no" to the <IMG>
                      > tag, as shown in the following code example:
                      >
                      > <IMG SRC="mypicture. jpg" HEIGHT="100px" WIDTH="100px"
                      > GALLERYIMG="no" >
                      >
                      >
                      [/color]

                      That's a lot of extra code if you have 20 images on a page.
                      Why not just
                      <meta http-equiv="imagetoo lbar" content="no"> ?


                      --
                      Els http://locusmeus.com/
                      Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
                      - Renato Russo -
                      Now playing: Deep Purple - Pictures Of Home

                      Comment

                      • Barbara de Zoete

                        #71
                        Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

                        On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:23:04 -0600, kaeli <tiny_one@NOSPA M.comcast.net> wrote:
                        [color=blue]
                        > In article <opsm2x0hnfx5vg ts@zoete_b>, b_de_zoete@hotm ail.com enlightened us
                        > with...[color=green]
                        >> By disabling the toolbar, the image is not copy protected at all. If someone
                        >> feels a need to copy, they can do.
                        >> IMO disabling that image toolbar is not about protection. It is about deleting
                        >> an invitation to do something I don't like. Even if I'm in someones home, I
                        >> don't like them browsing my purse or picking my pockets. This darn toolbar
                        >> tells
                        >> them it is technically very simple to do so.
                        >>[/color]
                        >
                        > why don't you just use MSIE code to do it then?
                        >[/color]

                        <snip example>

                        I might, but then again I can easily forget. The <meta> is standard in the head
                        element of my pages, I cannot forget.
                        Besides, I like to keep the use of attributes to a bare minimum. Only use
                        attributes that are really needes to get the content across. Clutter in the head
                        element seems less of a mess than clutter on element tag level.


                        --
                        ,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.
                        | weblog | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html |
                        | webontwerp | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html |
                        |zweefvliegen | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html |
                        `-------------------------------------------------- --<--@ ------------'

                        Comment

                        • me

                          #72
                          Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

                          "Jan Roland Eriksson" <jrexon@newsguy .com> wrote in message
                          news:u8se21dhv6 ac8bpqamekohou3 el6783oq0@4ax.c om...[color=blue]
                          > On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:46:26 -0600, "me" <anonymous@_.co m> wrote:
                          >
                          > [...]
                          >[color=green]
                          > >As a visitor to my site you will be expected to abide by my rules.[/color]
                          >
                          > You have got this all backwards.
                          >
                          > One of the original ideas for defining what was to become the www was
                          > that it is the www authors "creation" that gets invited to visit a
                          > clients home and browser.[/color]

                          Thats funny, I thought visitors must first enter a URL in the address bar of
                          their browser and then press a button before they can visit a website. Does
                          this mean that those TOS notices I see at many (all?) sites are null?

                          [snip]
                          [color=blue]
                          > The www works the same, after all it is based on client server
                          > technology i.e. the client rules, not the server.[/color]

                          You are forgetting CGI, server permissions etc. I guess you wouldn't mind
                          then if I visit your server and do as I please?
                          [color=blue][color=green]
                          > >Disabling the IE image bar is one consequence of this.[/color]
                          >
                          > Nothing ever presented on the www, with an authors argument that it
                          > needs to be protected, is worth protecting in the first place.[/color]

                          In your opinion. IMO I suspect you may feel that way because you might be
                          unable to create anything of value. ;-)
                          [color=blue][color=green]
                          > >Since this condition only lasts for the duration of your visit...[/color]
                          >
                          > Beep! Error! YM "for the duration of /your visit/" in someone else's
                          > domain.[/color]

                          A browser has a domain! WOW! Please tell me how I can get my site to visit a
                          users browser? Would that be push technology? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA !
                          Signed,
                          me


                          Comment

                          • Barbara de Zoete

                            #73
                            Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

                            On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:00:48 -0600, me <anonymous@_.co m> wrote:
                            [color=blue]
                            > "Jan Roland Eriksson" <jrexon@newsguy .com> wrote in message
                            > news:u8se21dhv6 ac8bpqamekohou3 el6783oq0@4ax.c om...
                            >[color=green]
                            >> Beep! Error! YM "for the duration of /your visit/" in someone else's
                            >> domain.[/color]
                            >
                            > A browser has a domain! WOW! Please tell me how I can get my site to visit a
                            > users browser? Would that be push technology? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA !
                            > Signed,
                            > me[/color]

                            Man, does your attitude suck, as does your reading capability. Luser *plonk*


                            --
                            ,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.
                            | weblog | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html |
                            | webontwerp | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html |
                            |zweefvliegen | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html |
                            `-------------------------------------------------- --<--@ ------------'

                            Comment

                            • Steve Pugh

                              #74
                              Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

                              "me" <anonymous@_.co m> wrote:[color=blue]
                              >"Jan Roland Eriksson" <jrexon@newsguy .com> wrote in message
                              >news:u8se21dhv 6ac8bpqamekohou 3el6783oq0@4ax. com...[color=green]
                              >> On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:46:26 -0600, "me" <anonymous@_.co m> wrote:
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> One of the original ideas for defining what was to become the www was
                              >> that it is the www authors "creation" that gets invited to visit a
                              >> clients home and browser.[/color]
                              >
                              >Thats funny, I thought visitors must first enter a URL in the address bar of
                              >their browser and then press a button before they can visit a website.[/color]

                              Yes. When the button is pressed the browser send out the invitation
                              mentioned above. If it accepts that invitation then the server sends
                              out the web page to the browser. The web page arrives in the user's
                              browser and is displayed there.
                              [color=blue]
                              > Does
                              >this mean that those TOS notices I see at many (all?) sites are null?[/color]

                              By and large yes. Thanks to search engines, links from other sites,
                              links in e-mails, etc. a user can arrive at any page of a site. There
                              is virtually nor reliable way of making a user agree to a site TOS
                              before they view a web page.
                              [color=blue][color=green]
                              >> The www works the same, after all it is based on client server
                              >> technology i.e. the client rules, not the server.[/color]
                              >
                              >You are forgetting CGI, server permissions etc. I guess you wouldn't mind
                              >then if I visit your server and do as I please?[/color]

                              How do you compare hacking a server to viewing a web page in your own
                              browser?
                              [color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
                              >> >Disabling the IE image bar is one consequence of this.[/color]
                              >>
                              >> Nothing ever presented on the www, with an authors argument that it
                              >> needs to be protected, is worth protecting in the first place.[/color]
                              >
                              >In your opinion. IMO I suspect you may feel that way because you might be
                              >unable to create anything of value. ;-)[/color]

                              And are you willing to put your work where your mouth is?
                              [color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
                              >> >Since this condition only lasts for the duration of your visit...[/color]
                              >>
                              >> Beep! Error! YM "for the duration of /your visit/" in someone else's
                              >> domain.[/color]
                              >
                              >A browser has a domain! WOW! Please tell me how I can get my site to visit a
                              >users browser?[/color]

                              He was using domain in the everday use of the word not the technical
                              use. Which I suspect you knew and hence...
                              [color=blue]
                              >BWAHAHAHAHAHAH A![/color]

                              Ah, the trollishness is coming through. Time for the pills.

                              Steve

                              --
                              "Grab reality by the balls and squeeze." - Tempus Thales

                              Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net > <http://steve.pugh.net/>

                              Comment

                              • me

                                #75
                                Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

                                "Rob_W" <robwaaijenberg @hotmail.com> wrote in message
                                news:4227831d$0 $43074$e4fe514c @news.xs4all.nl ...[color=blue]
                                > me wrote:
                                > {snipped][color=green]
                                > > It is possible to "force" some of that with IE and as long as it's not[/color][/color]
                                done[color=blue][color=green]
                                > > in a malicious manner I see nothing wrong with that. As a professional
                                > > designer (yes I do get paid occasionally) I want to control the look of[/color][/color]
                                my[color=blue][color=green]
                                > > site as much as possible.
                                > >
                                > >[/color]
                                >
                                > Did you ever read this article?:
                                > http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dao/
                                >
                                > If you'd care to read it, I'd like to know your views about the subject;
                                > it's about "Controllin g Web Pages"
                                >
                                > Rob[/color]

                                I read that article or something similar long ago. I also long ago spent
                                quite some time consider all the ramifications too. My conclusion is that my
                                clients want what they want, they don't care about accessibility they want
                                total control of the look of their sites and since they pay the bill I'm
                                obliged to satisfy their needs. If that means I have to use tables, fixed
                                font sizes, flash, CSS or any other bells and whistles you can bet that's
                                exactly what I'm going to do. If I don't you can be sure there are plenty of
                                other designers who are more that willing to give them what they want. If
                                you doubt the popularity of the such design methods just visit any of the
                                most poplar sites on the web, they're all *controlled*.
                                Signed,
                                me


                                Comment

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