Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

[Steve Pugh]

Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

"me" <anonymous@_.co m> wrote:[color=blue]
>"Darin McGrew" <mcgrew@stanfor dalumni.org> wrote in message
>news:d0508d$gr 8$1@blue.rahul. net...[color=green]
>> me <anonymous@_.co m> wrote:[color=darkred]
>> > I already have a script installed that displays a message when the user
>> > right clicks[/color]
>>
>> Maybe. Maybe not. Better browsers don't let pages disable the context
>> menu.
>>[color=darkred]
>> > and the photos popup in a non resizeable window[/color]
>>
>> Maybe. Maybe not. Better browsers allow the user to resize any window.
>>[color=darkred]
>> > with no toolbars.[/color]
>>
>> Maybe. Maybe not. Better browsers--I'm sure you get the idea...[/color]
>
>The title of my OP defines the target browser.[/color]

The title of this newsgroup defines the scope of discussions that take
place here. If you're not talking about authoring for the world wide
web then you're in the wrong place.

Steve

--
"Grab reality by the balls and squeeze." - Tempus Thales

Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net > <http://steve.pugh.net/>

[me]

Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

"Harlan Messinger" <hmessinger.rem ovethis@comcast .net> wrote in message
news:38mq4aF5or aplU2@individua l.net...[color=blue]
> me wrote:[color=green]
> > "Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown @fastmail.fm> wrote in message
> > news:38m6nrF5qa s0eU1@individua l.net...
> >[color=darkred]
> >>"C A Upsdell" wrote in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html:
> >>
> >>>Bullshit. I am normally in favour of letting the user have control[/color][/color][/color]
over[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>>their browser, but the image toolbar is an exception. In the first
> >>>place, for MOST pages there is no reasonable likelihood that users[/color][/color][/color]
would[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>>want to use this toolbar's functions, and for such sites the toolbar is
> >>>EXTREMELY intrusive.
> >>
> >>Then let the user decide to disable it. The author has no right to
> >>decide the uer interface of the user's browser.[/color]
> >
> > Dear Mr. Brown:
> > Please cite proof (i.e. documentation in print or online) of your[/color][/color]
assertion[color=blue][color=green]
> > that it is illegal, immoral or unethical for a website author to decide[/color][/color]
what[color=blue][color=green]
> > functions a visitor should or should not have while visiting the[/color][/color]
author's[color=blue][color=green]
> > website.[/color]
>
> He should provide proof of a personal opinion?[/color]

Since Mr. Brown declared that I had no right to decide what functions a
visitor should or should not have while visiting my site I inquired if it
was his opinion (as I stated in a prior post but snipped from this post) or
on what grounds he made his assertion.
[color=blue]
> I likewise feel, without
> any proof whatsoever, that you have no business maximizing my window,
> changing my scrollbar color, or blocking operation of my context menu.[/color]

You are entitled to your opinion. You also have the right to avoid any site
that you find objectionable, just as I have the right to configure my site
however I choose.
Signed,
me

[Stan Brown]

Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

"me" wrote in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html:[color=blue]
>True, it just makes it less convient.[/color]

"Convient"? ?
[color=blue]
>I already have a script installed that displays a message when the user
>right clicks and the photos popup in a non resizeable window with no
>toolbars.[/color]

I suppose it comforts you to believe that.
[color=blue]
>I understand that a detriment thief will find a way to steal if they really[/color]

A "detriment thief"??? If someone steals a detriment he' be worse
off than before, no?

--

Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA

http://OakRoadSystems.com/

[Stan Brown]

Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

"C A Upsdell" wrote in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html:[color=blue]
>The argument, therefore, that the meta tag should never be used, is
>fundamentall y flawed. There are many instances in which the toolbar
>will not appear: omitting the meta tag simply ensures that it is IE, and
>IE alone, that decides whether it will appear or not.[/color]

Your argument seems to be that because users my not immediately be
aware of the criteria by which IS decides hether to display the
toolbar, authors should make it even more arbitrary and less
predictable.

Sorry, that dog won't hunt.

--

Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA

http://OakRoadSystems.com/

[me]

Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

"Steve Pugh" <steve@pugh.net > wrote in message
news:jffc211o02 ca7ksf3cgbpuoqv 11chu4lvf@4ax.c om...[color=blue]
> "me" <anonymous@_.co m> wrote:[color=green]
> >"Darin McGrew" <mcgrew@stanfor dalumni.org> wrote in message
> >news:d0508d$gr 8$1@blue.rahul. net...[color=darkred]
> >> me <anonymous@_.co m> wrote:
> >> > I already have a script installed that displays a message when the[/color][/color][/color]
user[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> > right clicks
> >>
> >> Maybe. Maybe not. Better browsers don't let pages disable the context
> >> menu.
> >>
> >> > and the photos popup in a non resizeable window
> >>
> >> Maybe. Maybe not. Better browsers allow the user to resize any window.
> >>
> >> > with no toolbars.
> >>
> >> Maybe. Maybe not. Better browsers--I'm sure you get the idea...[/color]
> >
> >The title of my OP defines the target browser.[/color]
>
> The title of this newsgroup defines the scope of discussions that take
> place here. If you're not talking about authoring for the world wide
> web then you're in the wrong place.
>
> Steve[/color]

If the discussion has gone OT it's not my doing, I was responding to
comments made about my OP. In any case I'm not entirely sure if this is OT
since some feel quite strongly about what authors are entitled to do with
their websites as in what code they should or should not use.
Signed,
me

[Uncle Pirate]

Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

me wrote:
[color=blue]
> "Brian" <usenet3@juliet remblay.com.inv alid> wrote in message
> news:HMpVd.6551 1$Dc.1083@trndd c06...
>[color=green]
>>me wrote:
>>
>>[color=darkred]
>>>Dear Mr. Brown:
>>>Please cite proof (i.e. documentation in print or online) of your
>>>assertion that it is illegal, immoral or unethical for a website
>>>author to decide what functions a visitor should or should not have[/color]
>>
>>Dear anonymous@_.com,
>>Please refrain from using such a condescending tone before you end up in
>>the killfiles.
>>
>>--
>>Signed,
>>Brian[/color]
>
>
> Dear Brian:
> You may, with my blessing, kill file me at your earliest opportunity.
> Condescendingly Yours,
> me
>
>[/color]
Me too? plonk

--
Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
Coordinator, Tularosa Basin Chapter, ABATE of NM; AMA#758681; COBB
'94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) :( http://motorcyclefun.org/Dcp_2068c.jpg
A zest for living must include a willingness to die. - R.A. Heinlein

[me]

Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown @fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:38mts1F5od 55qU3@individua l.net...[color=blue]
> "me" wrote in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html:[color=green]
> >True, it just makes it less convient.[/color]
>
> "Convient"? ?
>[color=green]
> >I already have a script installed that displays a message when the user
> >right clicks and the photos popup in a non resizeable window with no
> >toolbars.[/color]
>
> I suppose it comforts you to believe that.[/color]

We must take our comforts where ever we can find them. ;-)
[color=blue][color=green]
> >I understand that a detriment thief will find a way to steal if they[/color][/color]
really[color=blue]
>
> A "detriment thief"??? If someone steals a detriment he' be worse
> off than before, no?
>
> --
>
> Stan Brown[/color]

My bad, eyesight failing or spell checker malfunction: convenient,
determined. Happy now?
Signed,
me

[Steve Pugh]

Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

"me" <anonymous@_.co m> wrote:[color=blue]
>"Steve Pugh" <steve@pugh.net > wrote in message
>news:jffc211o0 2ca7ksf3cgbpuoq v11chu4lvf@4ax. com...[color=green]
>> "me" <anonymous@_.co m> wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>> >The title of my OP defines the target browser.[/color]
>>
>> The title of this newsgroup defines the scope of discussions that take
>> place here. If you're not talking about authoring for the world wide
>> web then you're in the wrong place.
>>[/color]
>If the discussion has gone OT it's not my doing,[/color]

If the discussion has always been OT, and your the one pointing out
the IE only part in your subject line, then it is your doing.
[color=blue]
> I was responding to comments made about my OP.[/color]

By pointing out that your OP was only about IE. So you're only
interested in preventing IE users from "stealing" your content? Does
that mean that your content is on an IE only intranet (and hence off
topic) or that you're happy for non-IE users to "steal" as much as
they like (in which case, huh?)?

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net > <http://steve.pugh.net/>

[Darin McGrew]

Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

I wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>> The basic problem is that it "prevents users from forming a robust
>> conceptual model of their systems" (to quote Jakob Nielsen slightly out of
>> context: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20011028.html).
>>
>> If the user interface behaviour is inexplicably different at some sites,
>> then the average user has more difficulty figuring out what the user
>> interface is supposed to be, and that affects the usability of all sites
>> (for that user). Leave the user interface alone, and average users will be
>> better off. Do whatever you want with your site, but leave the user
>> interface alone.[/color][/color]

me <anonymous@_.co m> wrote:[color=blue]
> IIUC your objection is philosophical[...][/color]

You do not understand correctly.
--
Darin McGrew, mcgrew@stanford alumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, darin@htmlhelp. com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"Do not look where you fell, but where you slipped." - African Proverb

[Jan Roland Eriksson]

Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

On 2 Mar 2005 19:12:35 GMT, Blinky the Shark <no.spam@box.in valid>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>Harlan Messinger wrote:[color=green]
>> Well, OK, but it's not so much like locking your front door
>> as it is like hanging a length of string across the entryway.[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
>You just made me think of this image:
>http://blinkynet.net/stuff/comp/winsecurity.jpg[/color]

ROTFL :-)

--
Rex

[Jan Roland Eriksson]

Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:28:45 -0600, "me" <anonymous@_.co m> wrote:
[color=blue]
>"Darin McGrew" <mcgrew@stanfor dalumni.org> wrote in message
>news:d0508d$gr 8$1@blue.rahul. net...[/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
>> me <anonymous@_.co m> wrote:[color=darkred]
>> > I already have a script installed that displays a message when the user
>> > right clicks[/color][/color][/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Maybe. Maybe not. Better browsers ...[/color][/color]

.... [ etc ] ...
[color=blue]
>The title of my OP defines the target browser.[/color]

Fair enough; but what Darin is trying to brief you about is that as soon
as you let one (ore more) of your pages "lose" on the www, you have at
the same instant "lost control" of how they will be received.

You just can not know how any one of a potential 6,5 billion humans
around this world will see what you have made available.

If you want to "target" a specific browser you are at the same time
saying "I don't care for the rest" who may want/need to use other
browsers.

--
Rex

[Alan J. Flavell]

Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Jan Roland Eriksson wrote:
[color=blue]
> If you want to "target" a specific browser you are at the same time
> saying "I don't care for the rest" who may want/need to use other
> browsers.[/color]

This seems to be the opposite of what the OP wants: he's asking to
apply a disability to IE, while leaving all the WWW-compatible
browsers fully-functional.

[me]

Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

"Darin McGrew" <mcgrew@stanfor dalumni.org> wrote in message
news:d05ih2$th1 $1@blue.rahul.n et...[color=blue]
> I wrote:[color=green][color=darkred]
> >> The basic problem is that it "prevents users from forming a robust
> >> conceptual model of their systems" (to quote Jakob Nielsen slightly out[/color][/color][/color]
of[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> context: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20011028.html).
> >>
> >> If the user interface behaviour is inexplicably different at some[/color][/color][/color]
sites,[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> then the average user has more difficulty figuring out what the user
> >> interface is supposed to be, and that affects the usability of all[/color][/color][/color]
sites[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> (for that user). Leave the user interface alone, and average users will[/color][/color][/color]
be[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> better off. Do whatever you want with your site, but leave the user
> >> interface alone.[/color][/color]
>
> me <anonymous@_.co m> wrote:[color=green]
> > IIUC your objection is philosophical[...][/color]
>
> You do not understand correctly.
> --
> Darin McGrew[/color]

I understand that you did not object on legal, moral or ethical grounds. If
those are not your reasons then clarify.
Sign,
me

[me]

Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

"Steve Pugh" <steve@pugh.net > wrote in message
news:17ic21lere gba6grfigeofi1l 0g3gu5eah@4ax.c om...[color=blue]
> "me" <anonymous@_.co m> wrote:[color=green]
> >"Steve Pugh" <steve@pugh.net > wrote in message
> >news:jffc211o0 2ca7ksf3cgbpuoq v11chu4lvf@4ax. com...[color=darkred]
> >> "me" <anonymous@_.co m> wrote:
> >>
> >> >The title of my OP defines the target browser.
> >>
> >> The title of this newsgroup defines the scope of discussions that take
> >> place here. If you're not talking about authoring for the world wide
> >> web then you're in the wrong place.
> >>[/color]
> >If the discussion has gone OT it's not my doing,[/color]
>
> If the discussion has always been OT, and your the one pointing out
> the IE only part in your subject line, then it is your doing.[/color]

You are freely participanting in this discussion that you call OT.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > I was responding to comments made about my OP.[/color]
>
> By pointing out that your OP was only about IE. So you're only
> interested in preventing IE users from "stealing" your content? Does
> that mean that your content is on an IE only intranet (and hence off
> topic) or that you're happy for non-IE users to "steal" as much as
> they like (in which case, huh?)?
>
> Steve[/color]

I wish to deter IE users from stealing from my site and since they represent
the vast majority of my visitors this will go a long way toward protecting
my IP. I'm not on an intranet. If you can suggest a way to prevent users of
other browsers from stealing my IP I'd like to hear about it.
Signed,
me

[Lachlan Hunt]

Re: Prevent IE users from copying or seeing copy toolbar?

C A Upsdell > wrote:[color=blue]
> Lachlan Hunt wrote:[color=green]
>> C A Upsdell > wrote:[color=darkred]
>>> <meta http-equiv="imagetoo lbar" content="no">[/color]
>>
>> You, as an author, have absolutely no right to disable a user's user agent
>> feature... Keep in mind that it is a *user agent*, not an author agent![/color]
>
> Bullshit.[/color]

I'm not exactly sure what this has to do with animal faeces, please keep
this dicussion on topic.
[color=blue]
> I am normally in favour of letting the user have control over
> their browser, but the image toolbar is an exception.[/color]

No it's not, the user agent provides it as a usability feature for the
user to perform common image related functions, why should it not be the
user agent/user that decides whether or not it displays?

[color=blue]
> In the first place, for MOST pages there is no reasonable likelihood
> that users would want to use this toolbar's functions[/color]

Based on what evidence? Who are you to decide what a user, other than
yourself, does or does not want?

[color=blue]
>, and for such sites the toolbar is EXTREMELY intrusive.[/color]

Intrusive for the user or intrusive for you, the author, because it's
displayed on top of your precious images? Some user's may find it
intrusive, but as already stated they have the option to disable it if
they choose.
[color=blue]
> In the second place, for most pages, in the very rare instances where a
> user might want to carry out such functions, there are other ways of doing
> them.[/color]


Indeed, but if that were a successful argument, the it would also apply
to the common practice of disabling the context menu. Functions such as
View Source, etc. are mostly available from the other menus, so based on
that logic it would be acceptable to do so. However, it is not because
it interferes with the way many users make use of the application.
Additionally a user that likes the image toolbar may be unaware of the
other methods to achieve these functions.
[color=blue]
> And in the third place, if there is a page in which there is a reasonable
> likelihood that the user would want to use the toolbar, it is easy to omit
> the meta tag for that page.[/color]

Again, who are you to decide what a user, other than yourself, does or
does not want?
[color=blue]
> The bottom line on this is that IE (the only browser to support such a
> toolbar)[/color]

Precisely, it is the *only* user agent to support such a feature, so if
IE had a much smaller market share (eg. < 5%), would you still promote
the use of this proprietary markup to disable the feature?
[color=blue]
> [IE} is too stupid to tell whether or not a given image should have
> such a toolbar, and therefore it is reasonable for the designer to help
> IE out by supplying the intelligence that IE lacks.[/color]

The user agent's logic for determining whether or not to display it for
a certain image may not be the best and it would probably be better if
the user could configure the conditions under which it appeared.
However, that still does not give any right to the author to interfere
with a user agents function intended as a feature for the user!

--
Lachlan Hunt

http://lachy.id.au/

http://GetFirefox.com/ Rediscover the Web
http://GetThunderbird.com/ Reclaim your Inbox