php vs python

[Ivan Illarionov]

Re: php vs python

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Lie wrote:

On May 22, 12:28 pm, NC <n...@iname.com wrote:

On May 21, 1:10 pm, notbob <not...@nothome .comwrote:
>So, here's my delimna: I want to start a blog.  Yeah, who doesn't.
>Yet, I want learn the guts of it instead of just booting up some
>wordwank or whatever.
Here's a simple computation to consider...  WordPress' codebase is
approximately a megabyte of PHP code and megabyte of JavaScript code.
Assuming that the average line of that code is 50 characters long, you
are looking at 20,000 lines of code in PHP and as many in JavaScript.
Based on the notion that the average developer out there writes 100
lines a day, either you're in for a two-year project or your product
is going to have seriously reduced functionality compared to something
that's been freely available for years.  What's your choice?

>

Nope, the core functionality of a blogging software could be
replicated in just a few lines of PHP codes, in the range of tens to
hundreds of lines. If you're creating your own blogging software, you
wouldn't seriously think you'd recreate all those things such as
pingbacks, commenting system, etc, etc, etc. No, you'd start with some
basic core functionalities : a few simple server side includes only.

>
As he said - it's either a two man-year project or your product is going
to have seriously reduced functionality.  It looks like you are opting
for the latter.
>
Also, you still need to write the server-side includes.  But they won't
do nearly enough for everything WordPress does.

If the OP wants to learn the guts of the blog or to implement the blog
from scratch, Python/Django would be a better choice than PHP. The
reason is that he can reuse and customize existing high quality
components for all these auth/auth, admin, comments, etc, etc, etc.
Another reason is that Python and Django encourage very clean design
while PHP is too often ends up in "spaghetti SQL wrapped in spaghetti
PHP wrapped in spaghetti HTML". 2 man/year in PHP == 2 man/week in
Python/Django.

And there are Python/Django blog applications that already do almost
everything (and maybe more) that WordPress does. http://byteflow.su/
is one of them (IMHO the most promising).

Ivan

[Jerry Stuckle]

Re: php vs python

Ivan Illarionov wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

>Lie wrote:

>>On May 22, 12:28 pm, NC <n...@iname.com wrote:
>>>On May 21, 1:10 pm, notbob <not...@nothome .comwrote:
>>>>So, here's my delimna: I want to start a blog. Yeah, who doesn't.
>>>>Yet, I want learn the guts of it instead of just booting up some
>>>>wordwank or whatever.
>>>Here's a simple computation to consider... WordPress' codebase is
>>>approximatel y a megabyte of PHP code and megabyte of JavaScript code.
>>>Assuming that the average line of that code is 50 characters long, you
>>>are looking at 20,000 lines of code in PHP and as many in JavaScript.
>>>Based on the notion that the average developer out there writes 100
>>>lines a day, either you're in for a two-year project or your product
>>>is going to have seriously reduced functionality compared to something
>>>that's been freely available for years. What's your choice?
>>Nope, the core functionality of a blogging software could be
>>replicated in just a few lines of PHP codes, in the range of tens to
>>hundreds of lines. If you're creating your own blogging software, you
>>wouldn't seriously think you'd recreate all those things such as
>>pingbacks, commenting system, etc, etc, etc. No, you'd start with some
>>basic core functionalities : a few simple server side includes only.

>As he said - it's either a two man-year project or your product is going
>to have seriously reduced functionality. It looks like you are opting
>for the latter.
>>
>Also, you still need to write the server-side includes. But they won't
>do nearly enough for everything WordPress does.

>
If the OP wants to learn the guts of the blog or to implement the blog
from scratch, Python/Django would be a better choice than PHP. The
reason is that he can reuse and customize existing high quality
components for all these auth/auth, admin, comments, etc, etc, etc.
Another reason is that Python and Django encourage very clean design
while PHP is too often ends up in "spaghetti SQL wrapped in spaghetti
PHP wrapped in spaghetti HTML". 2 man/year in PHP == 2 man/week in
Python/Django.
>

You can do the same in PHP. And PHP doesn't create spaghetti code -
programmers do. Good programmers write good code in any language. Poor
programmers write lousy code - in any language.

And I'd love to see you write WordPress in 2 weeks in Python. That's
about 2K LOC. Can't be done with the same functionality - unless you
have some 50K lines.

It's going to be very close to the same 2 man years that PHP takes.

And there are Python/Django blog applications that already do almost
everything (and maybe more) that WordPress does. http://byteflow.su/
is one of them (IMHO the most promising).
>
Ivan
>

And there are many CMS's written in PHP which do much more than
WordPress does. Drupal, Joomla and Mambo come to mind.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[NC]

Re: php vs python

On May 25, 11:46 am, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario.. .@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
If the OP wants to learn the guts of the blog or to implement
the blog from scratch, Python/Django would be a better choice
than PHP. The reason is that he can reuse and customize existing
high quality components for all these auth/auth, admin, comments,
etc, etc, etc.

You are comparing apples to oranges... There are application
frameworks
for PHP as well (CakePHP and Symfony come to mind). CakePHP, if
memory
serves, actually has a development of a blog described in its
tutorial...

Another reason is that Python and Django encourage very clean design
while PHP is too often ends up in "spaghetti SQL wrapped in spaghetti
PHP wrapped in spaghetti HTML".

It's absolutely the same thing with PHP frameworks...

2 man/year in PHP == 2 man/week in Python/Django.

This, I daresay, is an exaggeration... Let's take your own example:

And there are Python/Django blog applications that already do almost
everything (and maybe more) that WordPress does.http://byteflow.su/
is one of them (IMHO the most promising).

A quick look at the revision log:

http://byteflow.su/log/

reveals that the initial commit of 60 or so files has been done on
08/14/07
(10 months ago), a second developer came on board 12/01/07 (seven+
months ago),
a third one, on 01/04/08 (six+ months ago), a fourth one, on 01/16/08
(also
six+ months ago). There are at least nine discernible contributors
overall.
Say what you will, but it still looks an awful lot like like two man-
years,
Django or no Django...

Cheers,
NC

[Ivan Illarionov]

Re: php vs python

On Sun, 25 May 2008 13:28:25 -0700, NC wrote:
[...]

A quick look at the revision log:
>

http://byteflow.su/log/

>
reveals that the initial commit of 60 or so files has been done on
08/14/07
(10 months ago), a second developer came on board 12/01/07 (seven+
months ago),
a third one, on 01/04/08 (six+ months ago), a fourth one, on 01/16/08
(also
six+ months ago). There are at least nine discernible contributors
overall.
Say what you will, but it still looks an awful lot like like two man-
years,
Django or no Django...

I bet that if they did this with PHP framework they where far from where
they are now.

I didn't say that it's not possible to write good code in PHP, I said
that Python and Django encourage cleaner code more than PHP and PHP
frameworks do.

IMHO Python language is better designed and this influences everything
written in it.

Yes, it's possible to write something clean in PHP but it would require a
lot more work.

Ivan

[Jerry Stuckle]

Re: php vs python

Ivan Illarionov wrote:

On Sun, 25 May 2008 13:28:25 -0700, NC wrote:
[...]

>A quick look at the revision log:
>>
>http://byteflow.su/log/
>>
>reveals that the initial commit of 60 or so files has been done on
>08/14/07
>(10 months ago), a second developer came on board 12/01/07 (seven+
>months ago),
>a third one, on 01/04/08 (six+ months ago), a fourth one, on 01/16/08
>(also
>six+ months ago). There are at least nine discernible contributors
>overall.
>Say what you will, but it still looks an awful lot like like two man-
>years,
>Django or no Django...

>
I bet that if they did this with PHP framework they where far from where
they are now.
>

Yep, I'd bet they would be much further along.

I didn't say that it's not possible to write good code in PHP, I said
that Python and Django encourage cleaner code more than PHP and PHP
frameworks do.
>

I repeat. The language has nothing to do with it. Good programmers
write good code. Lousy programmers write bad code.

IMHO Python language is better designed and this influences everything
written in it.
>

A lot of people don't share the opinion that it is "better designed".

Yes, it's possible to write something clean in PHP but it would require a
lot more work.
>

Not at all. I do it every day.

And BTW - yes, I write Python, also. But I find I can write better,
faster code in PHP.

Do you write PHP?

Ivan
>
>

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Ivan Illarionov]

Re: php vs python

On Sun, 25 May 2008 17:09:43 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Not at all. I do it every day.
>
And BTW - yes, I write Python, also. But I find I can write better,
faster code in PHP.

I find I can write better code in Python. Maybe it's just a matter of
personal preference?

Do you write PHP?

I did. And I hated it very much. I hated it so much that even I had few
Python scripts that generated PHP for me when it was possible.

[NC]

Re: php vs python

On May 25, 1:55 pm, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario.. .@gmail.comwrot e:

On Sun, 25 May 2008 13:28:25 -0700, NC wrote:
>

A quick look at the revision log:

>

http://byteflow.su/log/

>

reveals that the initial commit of 60 or so files has been done
on 08/14/07 (10 months ago), a second developer came on board
12/01/07 (seven+ months ago), a third one, on 01/04/08 (six+
months ago), a fourth one, on 01/16/08 (also six+ months ago).
There are at least nine discernible contributors overall. Say
what you will, but it still looks an awful lot like like two
man-years, Django or no Django...

>
I bet that if they did this with PHP framework they where far
from where they are now.

The question is, which way? :) Jerry Stuckle, with whom I
wholeheartedly argue about half the time we post to the same threads
and argue bitterly the other half of the time, thinks they would be
ahead of where they are now... :)

I didn't say that it's not possible to write good code in PHP,

Indeed you didn't. You did, however, say that development in Python/
Django is inherently faster than development in PHP (your exact words
were, "2 man/year in PHP == 2 man/week in Python/Django", implying a
50-fold difference). This claim has just been obliterated using the
example you (not I) provided; my estimate of two man-years for
developing WordPress turns out to be fairly close to what has actually
gone into the development of Byteflow. In other words, so far we have
discovered no evidence of Python's (or PHP's, to be fair) superiority
in terms of developer's productivity.

IMHO Python language is better designed

That is indeed a matter of opinion. You like (among other things)
immutable strings, the off-side rule, the idea that everything is an
object, and the fine distinction between mutable lists and immutable
tuples, and I have no problem with you liking these features, as long
as you agree that other people may have reasons to like the
alternatives better.

Yes, it's possible to write something clean in PHP but it
would require a lot more work.

In my opinion, it wouldn't, and in my experience, it doesn't. All you
need is to actually put a designer in charge of design. Additionally,
there are situations (rapid prototyping, for example) when
maintainability (the requirement behind the "clean code") is simply
not a concern.

Cheers,
NC

[Ivan Illarionov]

Re: php vs python

On Sun, 25 May 2008 16:23:12 -0700, NC wrote:

>I didn't say that it's not possible to write good code in PHP,

>
Indeed you didn't. You did, however, say that development in Python/
Django is inherently faster than development in PHP (your exact words
were, "2 man/year in PHP == 2 man/week in Python/Django", implying a
50-fold difference). This claim has just been obliterated using the
example you (not I) provided; my estimate of two man-years for
developing WordPress turns out to be fairly close to what has actually
gone into the development of Byteflow. In other words, so far we have
discovered no evidence of Python's (or PHP's, to be fair) superiority in
terms of developer's productivity.

In this case (excellent blogging tool), yes, I agree.

>IMHO Python language is better designed

>
That is indeed a matter of opinion. You like (among other things)
immutable strings, the off-side rule, the idea that everything is an
object, and the fine distinction between mutable lists and immutable
tuples, and I have no problem with you liking these features, as long as
you agree that other people may have reasons to like the alternatives
better.

I agree. We like different things and it's good.

>Yes, it's possible to write something clean in PHP but it would require
>a lot more work.

>
In my opinion, it wouldn't, and in my experience, it doesn't. All you
need is to actually put a designer in charge of design. Additionally,
there are situations (rapid prototyping, for example) when
maintainability (the requirement behind the "clean code") is simply not
a concern.

It's hard to me to write good PHP. I feel happy programming in Python and
I felt very unhappy when I had to program in PHP. I'm glad that you have
a different experience.

Ivan

[Jerry Stuckle]

Re: php vs python

Ivan Illarionov wrote:

On Sun, 25 May 2008 17:09:43 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

>Not at all. I do it every day.
>>
>And BTW - yes, I write Python, also. But I find I can write better,
>faster code in PHP.

>
I find I can write better code in Python. Maybe it's just a matter of
personal preference?
>

>Do you write PHP?

I did. And I hated it very much. I hated it so much that even I had few
Python scripts that generated PHP for me when it was possible.
>

So you really don't write PHP. Enough said.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Jerry Stuckle]

Re: php vs python

Ivan Illarionov wrote:

On Sun, 25 May 2008 16:23:12 -0700, NC wrote:
>

>>I didn't say that it's not possible to write good code in PHP,

>Indeed you didn't. You did, however, say that development in Python/
>Django is inherently faster than development in PHP (your exact words
>were, "2 man/year in PHP == 2 man/week in Python/Django", implying a
>50-fold difference). This claim has just been obliterated using the
>example you (not I) provided; my estimate of two man-years for
>developing WordPress turns out to be fairly close to what has actually
>gone into the development of Byteflow. In other words, so far we have
>discovered no evidence of Python's (or PHP's, to be fair) superiority in
>terms of developer's productivity.

>
In this case (excellent blogging tool), yes, I agree.
>

>>IMHO Python language is better designed

>That is indeed a matter of opinion. You like (among other things)
>immutable strings, the off-side rule, the idea that everything is an
>object, and the fine distinction between mutable lists and immutable
>tuples, and I have no problem with you liking these features, as long as
>you agree that other people may have reasons to like the alternatives
>better.

>
I agree. We like different things and it's good.
>

>>Yes, it's possible to write something clean in PHP but it would require
>>a lot more work.

>In my opinion, it wouldn't, and in my experience, it doesn't. All you
>need is to actually put a designer in charge of design. Additionally,
>there are situations (rapid prototyping, for example) when
>maintainabilit y (the requirement behind the "clean code") is simply not
>a concern.

>
It's hard to me to write good PHP. I feel happy programming in Python and
I felt very unhappy when I had to program in PHP. I'm glad that you have
a different experience.
>
Ivan
>

It's very easy for me to write good code in PHP. I can say the same for
a number of other good programmers I know.

As I've said before - good programmers can write good code in any language.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Ivan Illarionov]

Re: php vs python

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

As I've said before - good programmers can write good code in any
language.

Yes, they can. But it may be harder to do for them in one language and
easier in another.

Ivan

[Jerry Stuckle]

Re: php vs python

Ivan Illarionov wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>

>As I've said before - good programmers can write good code in any
>language.

>
Yes, they can. But it may be harder to do for them in one language and
easier in another.
>
Ivan

Not for a good programmer it isn't. I've known a few good programmers
in my 40+ years of programming. I've known a lot more poor programmers
who think they're good.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Ivan Illarionov]

Re: php vs python

On Sun, 25 May 2008 20:53:28 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Ivan Illarionov wrote:

>Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>

>>As I've said before - good programmers can write good code in any
>>language.

>>
>Yes, they can. But it may be harder to do for them in one language and
>easier in another.
>>
>Ivan

>
Not for a good programmer it isn't. I've known a few good programmers
in my 40+ years of programming. I've known a lot more poor programmers
who think they're good.

I can't argue with your experience. I don't think that I'm good
programmer. I want to be better. And I hope that when I'll have 48+ years
experience I won't have to use it as argumentum ad hominem.

[Jerry Stuckle]

Re: php vs python

Ivan Illarionov wrote:

On Sun, 25 May 2008 20:53:28 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>

>Ivan Illarionov wrote:

>>Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>
>>>As I've said before - good programmers can write good code in any
>>>language.
>>Yes, they can. But it may be harder to do for them in one language and
>>easier in another.
>>>
>>Ivan

>Not for a good programmer it isn't. I've known a few good programmers
>in my 40+ years of programming. I've known a lot more poor programmers
>who think they're good.

>
I can't argue with your experience. I don't think that I'm good
programmer. I want to be better. And I hope that when I'll have 48+ years
experience I won't have to use it as argumentum ad hominem.

No ad hominems on my part. I said nothing about you or your abilities.
I spoke only of programmers I have known, both good and poor.

The the good programmers are able to adapt to the language and make the
most of whatever language they're using. The result is good code.
OTOH, poor programmers I have known have found all kinds of excuses -
from the language itself to lack of requirements, to anything else they
can blame, except the real root of the problem.

If you take exception to that, then I'm sorry for you.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[I V]

Re: php vs python

On Sun, 25 May 2008 21:41:09 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

The the good programmers are able to adapt to the language and make the
most of whatever language they're using. The result is good code. OTOH,
poor programmers I have known have found all kinds of excuses - from the
language itself to lack of requirements, to anything else they can
blame, except the real root of the problem.

That's true - but I wonder if there might not be differences at the
margins. Some languages (and, which is not quite the same but not easy to
fully distinguish either, the communities around some languages) may
encourage mediocre programmers to produce slightly more or less mediocre
programs.

Some features of Python (the one that really stands out for me is not
default-initializing variables on first use; the comparatively clean
standard library might be another), and some features of the Python
community (which, IME, has more members more explicitly committed to
writing clean code) I think do make Python a better environment for us
mediocre programmers.

But maybe I'm wrong - I've never been paid to write Python programs,
whereas I have been paid to write PHP, so I might just be projecting my
frustrations with work onto the language. I've also not used PHP5 much in
anger, which does look to be a lot nicer than earlier versions.