php vs python

[Max M]

Re: php vs python

Jerry Stuckle skrev:

Ivan Illarionov wrote:

I repeat. The language has nothing to do with it. Good programmers
write good code. Lousy programmers write bad code.

That is simply not true!

The languag has a lot to do with what you can do in any given time.

You can write good code in a bad language. But it will take lot more
time. And so it will not be done.

Your argument, if it was true, would mean that I could just as well
write a blog in c or even assembler, and still write optimal code.


php is a terrible language and I cringe whenever I have to use it. In
fact I have turned down many jobs because they were written in php. It
is simply to frustrating.


--

hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark

http://www.mxm.dk/

IT's Mad Science

[Ivan Illarionov]

Re: php vs python

On Mon, 26 May 2008 10:11:22 +0200, Max M wrote:

Jerry Stuckle skrev:

>Ivan Illarionov wrote:

>

>I repeat. The language has nothing to do with it. Good programmers
>write good code. Lousy programmers write bad code.

>
That is simply not true!
>
The languag has a lot to do with what you can do in any given time.
>
You can write good code in a bad language. But it will take lot more
time. And so it will not be done.
>
Your argument, if it was true, would mean that I could just as well
write a blog in c or even assembler, and still write optimal code.
>
>
php is a terrible language and I cringe whenever I have to use it. In
fact I have turned down many jobs because they were written in php. It
is simply to frustrating.

I want to cite Paul Graham on this topic:

"it's all based on one unspoken assumption, and that assumption turns out
to be false. The pointy-haired boss believes that all programming
languages are pretty much equivalent. If that were true, he would be
right on target. If languages are all equivalent, sure, use whatever
language everyone else is using.

But all languages are not equivalent, and I think I can prove this to you
without even getting into the differences between them. If you asked the
pointy-haired boss in 1992 what language software should be written in,
he would have answered with as little hesitation as he does today.
Software should be written in C++. But if languages are all equivalent,
why should the pointy-haired boss's opinion ever change? In fact, why
should the developers of Java have even bothered to create a new language?

Presumably, if you create a new language, it's because you think it's
better in some way than what people already had. And in fact, Gosling
makes it clear in the first Java white paper that Java was designed to
fix some problems with C++. So there you have it: languages are not all
equivalent. If you follow the trail through the pointy-haired boss's
brain to Java and then back through Java's history to its origins, you
end up holding an idea that contradicts the assumption you started with.

So, who's right? James Gosling, or the pointy-haired boss? Not
surprisingly, Gosling is right. Some languages are better, for certain
problems, than others. And you know, that raises some interesting
questions. Java was designed to be better, for certain problems, than C+
+. What problems? When is Java better and when is C++? Are there
situations where other languages are better than either of them?"
and so on at

http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html

I tend to share PG's opinions on the subject (though I think that Python
is superior to Lisp :-).

The argument that "the language has nothing to do with it" is an old
pointy-haired boss argument. I doubt that a person who think this way can
be a really good programmer.

Ivan

[Michael Fesser]

Re: php vs python

..oO(Ivan Illarionov)

>On Sun, 25 May 2008 17:09:43 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

>Not at all. I do it every day.
>>
>And BTW - yes, I write Python, also. But I find I can write better,
>faster code in PHP.

>
>I find I can write better code in Python. Maybe it's just a matter of
>personal preference?

Exactly.

>Do you write PHP?

>I did. And I hated it very much.

See, for me it's the other way round. I really hate Python syntax.
I only touch it for scripting Paint Shop Pro or if some third-party
Python script lacks proper documentation and I have to wade through
the sources to find the informations I need.

So where does this leave us? Nowhere. A language is just a tool and a
tool is just as good as the one who uses it. This was said often enough.

If you hate PHP, that's OK, but it doesn't make PHP a bad or even
inferior language.

Micha

[Curtis]

Re: php vs python

Paul Rubin wrote:

notbob <notbob@nothome .comwrites:

>Well, that's my actual question, then. Is php really so bad I'm just
>wasting my time? Or is it really the quickest way to blog functionality?

>
php is very easy to get started with and some big sites have been
written in it. There is lots of low cost php hosting available. It
is not as good a language as Python. However, Python's advantages are
strongest in more complex projects. For simple stuff, php is frankly
less hassle just because of its wide deployment and that extensive
function library that the blog post your quoted described as a bad
thing. Python's libraries are not bad, but php's are more intensely
focused on web apps and includes what you need as part of the standard
build. With Python, if you want a database adapter or web template
framework, you have to choose between a bunch of different ones and
download and configure it which often involves head scratching when
the auto-install stuff hits some quirk of your system. With php, it's
all right there when you flip the switch.
>
Knowing lots of languages is good for you. php is probably your
quickest route to getting a rudimentary web app running. Python
is a longer term project. Do both.

PHP is more than capable for handling large projects, not just small
scripting jobs. However, Paul's right about PHP being more driven
toward web development, where as Python may be better for different
types of apps.

Even then, I think your first reply was best, it just comes down to
what you have more fun writing. Both languages are equally capable of
getting the job done.

--
Curtis

[Jerry Stuckle]

Re: php vs python

Curtis wrote:

Paul Rubin wrote:

>notbob <notbob@nothome .comwrites:

>>Well, that's my actual question, then. Is php really so bad I'm just
>>wasting my time? Or is it really the quickest way to blog
>>functionality ?

>>
>php is very easy to get started with and some big sites have been
>written in it. There is lots of low cost php hosting available. It
>is not as good a language as Python. However, Python's advantages are
>strongest in more complex projects. For simple stuff, php is frankly
>less hassle just because of its wide deployment and that extensive
>function library that the blog post your quoted described as a bad
>thing. Python's libraries are not bad, but php's are more intensely
>focused on web apps and includes what you need as part of the standard
>build. With Python, if you want a database adapter or web template
>framework, you have to choose between a bunch of different ones and
>download and configure it which often involves head scratching when
>the auto-install stuff hits some quirk of your system. With php, it's
>all right there when you flip the switch.
>>
>Knowing lots of languages is good for you. php is probably your
>quickest route to getting a rudimentary web app running. Python
>is a longer term project. Do both.

>
PHP is more than capable for handling large projects, not just small
scripting jobs. However, Paul's right about PHP being more driven toward
web development, where as Python may be better for different types of apps.
>
Even then, I think your first reply was best, it just comes down to what
you have more fun writing. Both languages are equally capable of getting
the job done.
>
--
Curtis

Not true. PHP is quite capable of writing large, non-web based
projects. While it's non-browser based display capabilities are
somewhat lacking (although there are third party libraries which help a
lot), I've written some pretty complicated batch scripts in the past.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Curtis]

Re: php vs python

I V wrote:

On Sun, 25 May 2008 21:41:09 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

>The the good programmers are able to adapt to the language and make the
>most of whatever language they're using. The result is good code. OTOH,
>poor programmers I have known have found all kinds of excuses - from the
>language itself to lack of requirements, to anything else they can
>blame, except the real root of the problem.

>
That's true - but I wonder if there might not be differences at the
margins. Some languages (and, which is not quite the same but not easy to
fully distinguish either, the communities around some languages) may
encourage mediocre programmers to produce slightly more or less mediocre
programs.
>
Some features of Python (the one that really stands out for me is not
default-initializing variables on first use; the comparatively clean
standard library might be another), and some features of the Python
community (which, IME, has more members more explicitly committed to
writing clean code) I think do make Python a better environment for us
mediocre programmers.

If you set PHP to show notices, it will tell you of such cases.
However, the way I learned good programming practice was talking with
other programmers, and trying different languages. I think if you have
a real desire to write good code, and work at it, you can accomplish
your task, regardless of the language.

However, there is definitely a prevalent amount of poorly written PHP
on the Web, so it can be easy for a newcomer to pick up some bad
practices. This isn't a fault of the design of the language, though.

But maybe I'm wrong - I've never been paid to write Python programs,
whereas I have been paid to write PHP, so I might just be projecting my
frustrations with work onto the language. I've also not used PHP5 much in
anger, which does look to be a lot nicer than earlier versions.

Yeah, PHP5 is awesome, and PHP4 is dead/dying.

--
Curtis

[Curtis]

Re: php vs python

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Curtis wrote:

>Paul Rubin wrote:

>>notbob <notbob@nothome .comwrites:
>>>Well, that's my actual question, then. Is php really so bad I'm just
>>>wasting my time? Or is it really the quickest way to blog
>>>functionalit y?
>>>
>>php is very easy to get started with and some big sites have been
>>written in it. There is lots of low cost php hosting available. It
>>is not as good a language as Python. However, Python's advantages are
>>strongest in more complex projects. For simple stuff, php is frankly
>>less hassle just because of its wide deployment and that extensive
>>function library that the blog post your quoted described as a bad
>>thing. Python's libraries are not bad, but php's are more intensely
>>focused on web apps and includes what you need as part of the standard
>>build. With Python, if you want a database adapter or web template
>>framework, you have to choose between a bunch of different ones and
>>download and configure it which often involves head scratching when
>>the auto-install stuff hits some quirk of your system. With php, it's
>>all right there when you flip the switch.
>>>
>>Knowing lots of languages is good for you. php is probably your
>>quickest route to getting a rudimentary web app running. Python
>>is a longer term project. Do both.

>>
>PHP is more than capable for handling large projects, not just small
>scripting jobs. However, Paul's right about PHP being more driven
>toward web development, where as Python may be better for different
>types of apps.
>>
>Even then, I think your first reply was best, it just comes down to
>what you have more fun writing. Both languages are equally capable of
>getting the job done.
>>
>--
>Curtis

>
Not true. PHP is quite capable of writing large, non-web based
projects. While it's non-browser based display capabilities are
somewhat lacking (although there are third party libraries which help a
lot), I've written some pretty complicated batch scripts in the past.
>

Yeah, I see I may have spoken too soon. When I think about it, the PHP
extensions available do cover a lot of ground. I've played around with
php-gtk in the past, but nothing major.

To clarify: what I meant to say is that php is especially well suited
for web development, I didn't mean that it wasn't capable of doing
non-web based development.

--
Curtis

[AnrDaemon]

Re: php vs python

Greetings, Ivan Illarionov.
In reply to Your message dated Monday, May 26, 2008, 04:47:00,

>As I've said before - good programmers can write good code in any
>language.

Yes, they can. But it may be harder to do for them in one language and
easier in another.

It's obvious lie. If you have clear mind and you know language you're using,
there are absolutely NOTHING can deny you to write clear code.
Even using forth postfix notation, I have no problem writing good code, it's
as easy as writing bad code. And yes, I do see the difference.


--
Sincerely Yours, AnrDaemon <anrdaemon@free mail.ru>

[Ivan Illarionov]

Re: php vs python

On Wed, 28 May 2008 05:10:20 +0400, AnrDaemon wrote:

Greetings, Ivan Illarionov.
In reply to Your message dated Monday, May 26, 2008, 04:47:00,
>

>>As I've said before - good programmers can write good code in any
>>language.

>

>Yes, they can. But it may be harder to do for them in one language and
>easier in another.

>
It's obvious lie. If you have clear mind and you know language you're
using, there are absolutely NOTHING can deny you to write clear code.
Even using forth postfix notation, I have no problem writing good code,
it's as easy as writing bad code. And yes, I do see the difference.

No. Language does matter.

[Ivan Illarionov]

Re: php vs python

On Wed, 28 May 2008 01:32:24 +0000, Ivan Illarionov wrote:

On Wed, 28 May 2008 05:10:20 +0400, AnrDaemon wrote:
>

>Greetings, Ivan Illarionov.
>In reply to Your message dated Monday, May 26, 2008, 04:47:00,
>>

>>>As I've said before - good programmers can write good code in any
>>>language.

>>

>>Yes, they can. But it may be harder to do for them in one language and
>>easier in another.

>>
>It's obvious lie. If you have clear mind and you know language you're
>using, there are absolutely NOTHING can deny you to write clear code.
>Even using forth postfix notation, I have no problem writing good code,
>it's as easy as writing bad code. And yes, I do see the difference.

>
No. Language does matter.

I want to add
TROLL WARNING:
this message is cross-posted between comp.lang.pytho n and comp.lang.php
Let's stop.

[Jerry Stuckle]

Re: php vs python

Ivan Illarionov wrote:

On Wed, 28 May 2008 05:10:20 +0400, AnrDaemon wrote:
>

>Greetings, Ivan Illarionov.
>In reply to Your message dated Monday, May 26, 2008, 04:47:00,
>>

>>>As I've said before - good programmers can write good code in any
>>>language.
>>Yes, they can. But it may be harder to do for them in one language and
>>easier in another.

>It's obvious lie. If you have clear mind and you know language you're
>using, there are absolutely NOTHING can deny you to write clear code.
>Even using forth postfix notation, I have no problem writing good code,
>it's as easy as writing bad code. And yes, I do see the difference.

>
No. Language does matter.

Not for a good programmer. Only for half-assed ones.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Ivan Illarionov]

Re: php vs python

On Tue, 27 May 2008 21:47:55 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Ivan Illarionov wrote:

>On Wed, 28 May 2008 05:10:20 +0400, AnrDaemon wrote:
>>

>>Greetings, Ivan Illarionov.
>>In reply to Your message dated Monday, May 26, 2008, 04:47:00,
>>>
>>>>As I've said before - good programmers can write good code in any
>>>>language.
>>>Yes, they can. But it may be harder to do for them in one language
>>>and easier in another.
>>It's obvious lie. If you have clear mind and you know language you're
>>using, there are absolutely NOTHING can deny you to write clear code.
>>Even using forth postfix notation, I have no problem writing good
>>code, it's as easy as writing bad code. And yes, I do see the
>>difference.

>>
>No. Language does matter.

>
Not for a good programmer. Only for half-assed ones.

No. Language does matter

[Jerry Stuckle]

Re: php vs python

Ivan Illarionov wrote:

On Tue, 27 May 2008 21:47:55 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>

>Ivan Illarionov wrote:

>>On Wed, 28 May 2008 05:10:20 +0400, AnrDaemon wrote:
>>>
>>>Greetings, Ivan Illarionov.
>>>In reply to Your message dated Monday, May 26, 2008, 04:47:00,
>>>>
>>>>>As I've said before - good programmers can write good code in any
>>>>>language .
>>>>Yes, they can. But it may be harder to do for them in one language
>>>>and easier in another.
>>>It's obvious lie. If you have clear mind and you know language you're
>>>using, there are absolutely NOTHING can deny you to write clear code.
>>>Even using forth postfix notation, I have no problem writing good
>>>code, it's as easy as writing bad code. And yes, I do see the
>>>difference .
>>No. Language does matter.

>Not for a good programmer. Only for half-assed ones.

>
No. Language does matter

Only to half-assed programmers. Good programmers can write good code in
any language they know.

Ever seen good assembler? It can be done - really! Also fortran,
cobol, forth... the list goes on.


--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Ivan Illarionov]

Re: php vs python

On Tue, 27 May 2008 22:27:40 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Ivan Illarionov wrote:

>On Tue, 27 May 2008 21:47:55 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>

>>Ivan Illarionov wrote:
>>>On Wed, 28 May 2008 05:10:20 +0400, AnrDaemon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Greetings , Ivan Illarionov.
>>>>In reply to Your message dated Monday, May 26, 2008, 04:47:00,
>>>>>
>>>>>>As I've said before - good programmers can write good code in any
>>>>>>languag e.
>>>>>Yes, they can. But it may be harder to do for them in one language
>>>>>and easier in another.
>>>>It's obvious lie. If you have clear mind and you know language
>>>>you're using, there are absolutely NOTHING can deny you to write
>>>>clear code. Even using forth postfix notation, I have no problem
>>>>writing good code, it's as easy as writing bad code. And yes, I do
>>>>see the difference.
>>>No. Language does matter.
>>Not for a good programmer. Only for half-assed ones.

>>
>No. Language does matter

>
Only to half-assed programmers. Good programmers can write good code in
any language they know.
>
Ever seen good assembler? It can be done - really! Also fortran,
cobol, forth... the list goes on.

Yeah,
mov eax, Jerry
mov killfile, eax

[Jerry Stuckle]

Re: php vs python

Ivan Illarionov wrote:

On Tue, 27 May 2008 22:27:40 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>

>Ivan Illarionov wrote:

>>On Tue, 27 May 2008 21:47:55 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>
>>>Ivan Illarionov wrote:
>>>>On Wed, 28 May 2008 05:10:20 +0400, AnrDaemon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Greeting s, Ivan Illarionov.
>>>>>In reply to Your message dated Monday, May 26, 2008, 04:47:00,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>As I've said before - good programmers can write good code in any
>>>>>>>language .
>>>>>>Yes, they can. But it may be harder to do for them in one language
>>>>>>and easier in another.
>>>>>It's obvious lie. If you have clear mind and you know language
>>>>>you're using, there are absolutely NOTHING can deny you to write
>>>>>clear code. Even using forth postfix notation, I have no problem
>>>>>writing good code, it's as easy as writing bad code. And yes, I do
>>>>>see the difference.
>>>>No. Language does matter.
>>>Not for a good programmer. Only for half-assed ones.
>>No. Language does matter

>Only to half-assed programmers. Good programmers can write good code in
>any language they know.
>>
>Ever seen good assembler? It can be done - really! Also fortran,
>cobol, forth... the list goes on.

>
Yeah,
mov eax, Jerry
mov killfile, eax

Stoopid troll. But we already know you can't write good code. No
surprise there.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attgl obal.net
=============== ===