php vs python

[inhahe]

Re: php vs python

PHP can do that. There are also a number of templating engines
available. The nice thing about PHP is you have a choice.

i just meant that php is sort of invented to combine html and code, so if
you use python instead you should use a templating engine. but i suppose
it's useful for php too.

[Michael Fesser]

Re: php vs python

..oO(Nick Craig-Wood)

>Damon Getsman <dgetsman@amire hab.netwrote:

>PHP has great support for accessing a MySQL database,

>
>Actually I'd say PHP's mysql support is lacking a very important
>feature. mysql_query() doesn't support parameters (or placeholders,
>usually '?')

Where were you the last couple of years? It's lacking a lot more
features, but that's not the fault of the MySQL extension, which is
quite old. Meanwhile we have the improved MySQL extension and PDO.

>It is not a big deal, but I've had it drummed into me to always use
>parameters for user input and I was really suprised PHP didn't have
>them.

PHP supports them since _years_, you just have to choose the right
database interface.

Micha

[Andrew Lee]

Re: php vs python

notbob wrote:

I'm not posting this just to initiate some religious flame war, though it's
the perfect subject to do so. No, I actaully want some serious advice about
these two languages and since I think usenet is the best arena to find it,
here ya' go.
>
So, here's my delimna: I want to start a blog. Yeah, who doesn't. Yet, I
want learn the guts of it instead of just booting up some wordwank or
whatever. I started to learn python, but heard php was easier or faster or
more like shell scripting or... fill in the blank. Anyway, so I change over
to learning php. Then I run across that blog, Coding Horror, and start
reading articles like this:
>

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001119.html

>
Now what? Go back to python. Soldier on with php? What do I know? Not
much. I can setup mysql and apache,, but don't know how to use 'em, really.
I use emacs and run slackware and can fumble my way through bash scripts,
but I can't really write them or do lisp. I've taken basic basic and basic
C, but am barely literate in html. Sometimes it seems overwhelming, but I
persevere because it's more fun/challenging than video games, which bore me
to tears.
>
Well, that's my actual question, then. Is php really so bad I'm just
wasting my time? Or is it really the quickest way to blog functionality?
Would I be better served in the long run learning python, which claims to be
easy as pie to learn/program (still looks hard to me). I admit I'm no code
geek. But, I'm not completely brain dead, either, and I need something to
keep my geezer brain sparking. What say ye?
>
nb

Personally, I believe PHP would get you more productive more quickly for
a blog, but it is a potentially brain damaging language in terms of
really getting your juices flowing with programming. It is not a
general purpose language and suffers from all the limitations of of a
tool designed for one job. If you are interested in programming and the
blog is your path to that, stick with Python! In particular, immerse
yourself in mod_python or look at a framework like Django or Pylons --
the learning curve is steep for any of these technologies but they are a
full meal compared to saltine cracker and water of PHP.

[Erwin Moller]

Re: php vs python

Andrew Lee schreef:

notbob wrote:

>I'm not posting this just to initiate some religious flame war, though
>it's
>the perfect subject to do so. No, I actaully want some serious advice
>about
>these two languages and since I think usenet is the best arena to find
>it,
>here ya' go.
>>
>So, here's my delimna: I want to start a blog. Yeah, who doesn't.
>Yet, I
>want learn the guts of it instead of just booting up some wordwank or
>whatever. I started to learn python, but heard php was easier or
>faster or
>more like shell scripting or... fill in the blank. Anyway, so I
>change over
>to learning php. Then I run across that blog, Coding Horror, and start
>reading articles like this:
>>
>http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001119.html
>>
>Now what? Go back to python. Soldier on with php? What do I know? Not
>much. I can setup mysql and apache,, but don't know how to use 'em,
>really.
>I use emacs and run slackware and can fumble my way through bash scripts,
>but I can't really write them or do lisp. I've taken basic basic and
>basic
>C, but am barely literate in html. Sometimes it seems overwhelming,
>but I
>persevere because it's more fun/challenging than video games, which
>bore me
>to tears.
>Well, that's my actual question, then. Is php really so bad I'm just
>wasting my time? Or is it really the quickest way to blog functionality?
>Would I be better served in the long run learning python, which claims
>to be
>easy as pie to learn/program (still looks hard to me). I admit I'm no
>code
>geek. But, I'm not completely brain dead, either, and I need
>something to
>keep my geezer brain sparking. What say ye?
>>
>nb

>
Personally, I believe PHP would get you more productive more quickly for
a blog, but it is a potentially brain damaging language in terms of
really getting your juices flowing with programming. It is not a
general purpose language and suffers from all the limitations of of a
tool designed for one job. If you are interested in programming and the
blog is your path to that, stick with Python! In particular, immerse
yourself in mod_python or look at a framework like Django or Pylons --
the learning curve is steep for any of these technologies but they are a
full meal compared to saltine cracker and water of PHP.

Some statement Andrew.
Care to clarify that a little?
I don't know much Python (aside from a little in ZOPE), but I did a lot
of Java, Perl, VB/ASP (juck), and a little C before I learned PHP.
I stopped using all in favor of PHP.

If your statement says PHP is abused a lot, yes. Because it is
relatively easy to learn for new programmers, a lot of bad PHP coders
exist.
But I saw them too in Java/Perl/etc.
And I am sure you can find them too coding Python.

It is perfectly possible to write clean good code in PHP.

Why do you say it 'tastes less' then Python?
I don't want to start a religious war, but am curious.
Who knows, maybe I'll dump PHP and start using Python after your
answer. ;-)

Regards,
Erwin Moller

[Jerry Stuckle]

Re: php vs python

inhahe wrote:

>PHP can do that. There are also a number of templating engines
>available. The nice thing about PHP is you have a choice.

>
i just meant that php is sort of invented to combine html and code, so if
you use python instead you should use a templating engine. but i suppose
it's useful for php too.
>
>

Not at all. With PHP, it's possible to do so, but not required. With
Python, OTOH, you pretty much have to use a templating engine.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Jerry Stuckle]

Re: php vs python

Andrew Lee wrote:

notbob wrote:

>I'm not posting this just to initiate some religious flame war, though
>it's
>the perfect subject to do so. No, I actaully want some serious advice
>about
>these two languages and since I think usenet is the best arena to find
>it,
>here ya' go.
>>
>So, here's my delimna: I want to start a blog. Yeah, who doesn't.
>Yet, I
>want learn the guts of it instead of just booting up some wordwank or
>whatever. I started to learn python, but heard php was easier or
>faster or
>more like shell scripting or... fill in the blank. Anyway, so I
>change over
>to learning php. Then I run across that blog, Coding Horror, and start
>reading articles like this:
>>
>http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001119.html
>>
>Now what? Go back to python. Soldier on with php? What do I know? Not
>much. I can setup mysql and apache,, but don't know how to use 'em,
>really.
>I use emacs and run slackware and can fumble my way through bash scripts,
>but I can't really write them or do lisp. I've taken basic basic and
>basic
>C, but am barely literate in html. Sometimes it seems overwhelming,
>but I
>persevere because it's more fun/challenging than video games, which
>bore me
>to tears.
>Well, that's my actual question, then. Is php really so bad I'm just
>wasting my time? Or is it really the quickest way to blog functionality?
>Would I be better served in the long run learning python, which claims
>to be
>easy as pie to learn/program (still looks hard to me). I admit I'm no
>code
>geek. But, I'm not completely brain dead, either, and I need
>something to
>keep my geezer brain sparking. What say ye?
>>
>nb

>
Personally, I believe PHP would get you more productive more quickly for
a blog, but it is a potentially brain damaging language in terms of
really getting your juices flowing with programming. It is not a
general purpose language and suffers from all the limitations of of a
tool designed for one job. If you are interested in programming and the
blog is your path to that, stick with Python! In particular, immerse
yourself in mod_python or look at a framework like Django or Pylons --
the learning curve is steep for any of these technologies but they are a
full meal compared to saltine cracker and water of PHP.

And what job is that? I have a lot of batch scripts written in PHP, for
instance.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Michael Fesser]

Re: php vs python

..oO(Andrew Lee)

>Personally, I believe PHP would get you more productive more quickly for
>a blog, but it is a potentially brain damaging language in terms of
>really getting your juices flowing with programming. It is not a
>general purpose language

Please elaborate.

>and suffers from all the limitations of of a
>tool designed for one job.

Please elaborate.

And what "one" job are you talking about? There are many things possible
with PHP: web apps, shell scripts, daemons, GUI apps ...

>If you are interested in programming and the
>blog is your path to that, stick with Python!

<flame>Where whitespace is more important than the code.</flame>

Seriously, it's just a question of personal taste and preferences. In
terms of capabilities there's absolutely no difference between PHP and
Python. You need a good understanding of programming in general for
both, the rest is just syntax and the available standard libraries.

>In particular, immerse
>yourself in mod_python or look at a framework like Django or Pylons --
>the learning curve is steep for any of these technologies but they are a
>full meal compared to saltine cracker and water of PHP.

If you don't like PHP, that's perfectly OK. But you should accept that
it's only a tool and just as good as the one who uses it. For me and
many others it's a quite good language, we're able to write clean and
efficient code with it in a rather short time.

PHP is much more than just crackers and water. Of course you should know
how to cook.

Micha

[Duncan Booth]

Re: php vs python

Erwin Moller
<Since_humans_r ead_this_I_am_s pammed_too_much @spamyourself.c omwrote:

Why do you say it 'tastes less' then Python?
I don't want to start a religious war, but am curious.
Who knows, maybe I'll dump PHP and start using Python after your
answer. ;-)

I may not be a good person to answer this since I don't know PHP: I don't
have any religious objection to it, but I just never found it intuitive in
the way I found Python fits my mindset.

On those rare occasions when I've helped someone who wanted advice I've
found that my Python oriented viewpoint can be quite hard to translate to
PHP. For example I'd suggest 'oh you just encode that as utf8' only to be
told that there's no easy way to do that (have just Google'd it looks like
there is now a way to do that but with a big red warning about it being
EXPERIMENTAL and only use at your own risk).

(Looking at the example given for unicode_encode it appears to depend for
its working on a global setting which isn't included in the example. I may
have misunderstood the example but if I read that correctly its a good
example of why PHP doesn't fit my brain.)

Anyway Google should find you plenty of articles comparing the languages.
I'd say you use whichever feels right to you. I would also suggest you
should try Python at least a bit (but since I don't intend to do the same
for PHP you may not count my advice for much).

I found these pretty quickly:

http://python.about.com/od/gettingstarted/ss/whatispython_4.htm

http://wiki.w4py.org/python-vs-php.html

--
Duncan Booth http://kupuguy.blogspot.com

[Michael Fesser]

Re: php vs python

..oO(Duncan Booth)

>On those rare occasions when I've helped someone who wanted advice I've
>found that my Python oriented viewpoint can be quite hard to translate to
>PHP. For example I'd suggest 'oh you just encode that as utf8' only to be
>told that there's no easy way to do that (have just Google'd it looks like
>there is now a way to do that but with a big red warning about it being
>EXPERIMENTAL and only use at your own risk).
>
>(Looking at the example given for unicode_encode it appears to depend for
>its working on a global setting which isn't included in the example. I may
>have misunderstood the example but if I read that correctly its a good
>example of why PHP doesn't fit my brain.)

The only little problem is that PHP doesn't have native Unicode support
yet, which will change with PHP 6. But of course you can still use UTF-8
without any trouble, I do it all the time. You just have to keep in mind
that many string functions still work on bytes, not on characters, but
this can almost always be solved with the Multibyte extension. Apart
from that there's no problem with PHP and UTF-8. It's also easily
possible to convert between various encodings using the iconv extension.

Micha

[Duncan Booth]

Re: php vs python

Michael Fesser <netizen@gmx.de wrote:

.oO(Duncan Booth)
>

>>On those rare occasions when I've helped someone who wanted advice
>>I've found that my Python oriented viewpoint can be quite hard to
>>translate to PHP. For example I'd suggest 'oh you just encode that as
>>utf8' only to be told that there's no easy way to do that (have just
>>Google'd it looks like there is now a way to do that but with a big
>>red warning about it being EXPERIMENTAL and only use at your own
>>risk).
>>
>>(Looking at the example given for unicode_encode it appears to depend
>>for its working on a global setting which isn't included in the
>>example. I may have misunderstood the example but if I read that
>>correctly its a good example of why PHP doesn't fit my brain.)

>
The only little problem is that PHP doesn't have native Unicode
support yet, which will change with PHP 6. But of course you can still
use UTF-8 without any trouble, I do it all the time. You just have to
keep in mind that many string functions still work on bytes, not on
characters, but this can almost always be solved with the Multibyte
extension. Apart from that there's no problem with PHP and UTF-8. It's
also easily possible to convert between various encodings using the
iconv extension.
>

As I remember it the problem was that the data was stored in a database
in latin-1 but the HTML page had to be in utf-8 (because the rest of the
server and therefore all the page skins were already in utf-8). In
python that would be a trivial conversion but I was told that in PHP it
wasn't.

Also it was PHP4 and as I understand it updating to a more recent
version was non-trivial. Of course sometimes updating Python code to a
newer version is also non-trivial: Zope in particular is very version
specific but in most cases anything written in pure Python will be
compatible with more recent versions.

But one small example isn't really the point. It's that the whole way
Python works seems *to me* to make sense and (mostly) fits together
cleanly and consistently. YMMV

--
Duncan Booth http://kupuguy.blogspot.com

[Michael Fesser]

Re: php vs python

..oO(Duncan Booth)

>Michael Fesser <netizen@gmx.de wrote:
>

>The only little problem is that PHP doesn't have native Unicode
>support yet, which will change with PHP 6. But of course you can still
>use UTF-8 without any trouble, I do it all the time. You just have to
>keep in mind that many string functions still work on bytes, not on
>characters, but this can almost always be solved with the Multibyte
>extension. Apart from that there's no problem with PHP and UTF-8. It's
>also easily possible to convert between various encodings using the
>iconv extension.
>>

>As I remember it the problem was that the data was stored in a database
>in latin-1 but the HTML page had to be in utf-8 (because the rest of the
>server and therefore all the page skins were already in utf-8). In
>python that would be a trivial conversion but I was told that in PHP it
>wasn't.

It would have been trivial in PHP as well, assuming the DB was MySQL,
which could have done this conversion automatically when sending the
data to the script.

>But one small example isn't really the point. It's that the whole way
>Python works seems *to me* to make sense and (mostly) fits together
>cleanly and consistently. YMMV

Fair enough. The nature of PHP as being a grown language has its
advantages, but also a lot of drawbacks, which are hard to solve.

Micha

[Arnaud Delobelle]

Re: php vs python

Michael Fesser <netizen@gmx.de writes:

you don't like PHP, that's perfectly OK. But you should accept that
it's only a tool and just as good as the one who uses it. For me and
many others it's a quite good language, we're able to write clean and
efficient code with it in a rather short time.

I'm sure that anyone who is competent enough can write clean code in
any language (in the case of PHP, I am only familiar with one
significant example: I use and have written a few simple extensions
for mediawiki, and I find it quite easy to understand and navigate the
code).

However, while I feel that most languages are quite neutral about
this, I find that Python *encourages* me to write better code. In
other words, Python is not only a tool, it's also a lovely language.

Languages are a bit like shoes. You probably wouldn't want to wear the pair
I'm most comfortable in!

--
Arnaud

[Lie]

Re: php vs python

On May 22, 12:28 pm, NC <n...@iname.com wrote:

On May 21, 1:10 pm, notbob <not...@nothome .comwrote:
>
>
>

So, here's my delimna: I want to start a blog.  Yeah, who doesn't.
Yet, I want learn the guts of it instead of just booting up some
wordwank or whatever.

>
Here's a simple computation to consider...  WordPress' codebase is
approximately a megabyte of PHP code and megabyte of JavaScript code.
Assuming that the average line of that code is 50 characters long, you
are looking at 20,000 lines of code in PHP and as many in JavaScript.
Based on the notion that the average developer out there writes 100
lines a day, either you're in for a two-year project or your product
is going to have seriously reduced functionality compared to something
that's been freely available for years.  What's your choice?

Nope, the core functionality of a blogging software could be
replicated in just a few lines of PHP codes, in the range of tens to
hundreds of lines. If you're creating your own blogging software, you
wouldn't seriously think you'd recreate all those things such as
pingbacks, commenting system, etc, etc, etc. No, you'd start with some
basic core functionalities : a few simple server side includes only.

[Lie]

Re: php vs python

On May 22, 3:10 am, notbob <not...@nothome .comwrote:

I'm not posting this just to initiate some religious flame war, though it's
the perfect subject to do so.  No, I actaully want some serious advice about
these two languages and since I think usenet is the best arena to find it,
here ya' go.
>
So, here's my delimna: I want to start a blog.  Yeah, who doesn't.  Yet, I
want learn the guts of it instead of just booting up some wordwank or
whatever.  I started to learn python, but heard php was easier or fasteror
more like shell scripting or... fill in the blank.  Anyway, so I change over
to learning php.  Then I run across that blog, Coding Horror, and start
reading articles like this:
>

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001119.html

>
Now what?  Go back to python.  Soldier on with php?  What do I know? Not
much.  I can setup mysql and apache,, but don't know how to use 'em, really.
I use emacs and run slackware and can fumble my way through bash scripts,
but I can't really write them or do lisp.  I've taken basic basic and basic
C, but am barely literate in html.  Sometimes it seems overwhelming, butI
persevere because it's more fun/challenging than video games, which bore me
to tears.  
>
Well, that's my actual question, then.  Is php really so bad I'm just
wasting my time?  Or is it really the quickest way to blog functionality?
Would I be better served in the long run learning python, which claims to be
easy as pie to learn/program (still looks hard to me).  I admit I'm no code
geek.  But, I'm not completely brain dead, either, and I need something to
keep my geezer brain sparking.  What say ye?
>
nb

My advice? Mix a bit of both. PHP's pros is it's tight integration
with HTML, it's really easy to slip small, short PHP snippets here and
there. Server side includes for example, is a short one-liner, in
python it would involve reading the original file, finding where and
what to slip, then reading the include file then concatenates the
files then send it to the requester, or you could setup an engine for
you which might take some time and patience.

On the other hand, python is a general-purpose language, and is a
better designed language. Writing the blog back-end in Python is
probably easier than in PHP while writing the interface-related codes
is probably easier in PHP. You might also consider calling python code
from the PHP.

[Jerry Stuckle]

Re: php vs python

Lie wrote:

On May 22, 12:28 pm, NC <n...@iname.com wrote:

>On May 21, 1:10 pm, notbob <not...@nothome .comwrote:
>>
>>
>>

>>So, here's my delimna: I want to start a blog. Yeah, who doesn't.
>>Yet, I want learn the guts of it instead of just booting up some
>>wordwank or whatever.

>Here's a simple computation to consider... WordPress' codebase is
>approximatel y a megabyte of PHP code and megabyte of JavaScript code.
>Assuming that the average line of that code is 50 characters long, you
>are looking at 20,000 lines of code in PHP and as many in JavaScript.
>Based on the notion that the average developer out there writes 100
>lines a day, either you're in for a two-year project or your product
>is going to have seriously reduced functionality compared to something
>that's been freely available for years. What's your choice?

>
Nope, the core functionality of a blogging software could be
replicated in just a few lines of PHP codes, in the range of tens to
hundreds of lines. If you're creating your own blogging software, you
wouldn't seriously think you'd recreate all those things such as
pingbacks, commenting system, etc, etc, etc. No, you'd start with some
basic core functionalities : a few simple server side includes only.

As he said - it's either a two man-year project or your product is going
to have seriously reduced functionality. It looks like you are opting
for the latter.

Also, you still need to write the server-side includes. But they won't
do nearly enough for everything WordPress does.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attgl obal.net
=============== ===