Frames -- Disable/Enable Menus

[Jonathan N. Little]

Re: Frames -- Disable/Enable Menus

Jonathan N. Little wrote:

dorayme wrote:

>In article <e43ee$480eb9f0 $40cba7d0$30965 @NAXS.COM>,
> "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@centra l.netwrote:
>>

>>dorayme wrote:
>>>
>>>The development of the chain saw does not preclude the use of
>>>simpler or older tools.
>>>>
>>If the objective is to drop a tree, and there is an ax and a saw
>>before you, unless one is a masochist, the obvious choice is the
>>[chain] saw.

>
Actually just about *any* saw beats the ax in efficiency when felling a
tree.
>

Oh and additionally, now that server-side is so cheap, developed, and
now ubiquitous, server-side inclusion beats frames in efficiency and
function in the same manner...there is no reason in my opinion to ever
use frames unless your are stuck with hosting that doesn't even offer
server-side, (but even that is a lame excuse with so many free servers
with php out there).

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO

http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

[Chris Morris]

Re: Frames -- Disable/Enable Menus

"Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@centra l.netwrites:

Oh and additionally, now that server-side is so cheap, developed, and
now ubiquitous, server-side inclusion beats frames in efficiency and
function in the same manner...there is no reason in my opinion to ever
use frames unless your are stuck with hosting that doesn't even offer
server-side, (but even that is a lame excuse with so many free servers
with php out there).

That said, if you're only doing a bit of templating to replace frames,
an offline preprocessor is probably a better way to make the site. PHP
would be like using a chainsaw to chop through a twig, and about as
safe.

--
Chris

[Jonathan N. Little]

Re: Frames -- Disable/Enable Menus

Chris Morris wrote:

"Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@centra l.netwrites:

>Oh and additionally, now that server-side is so cheap, developed, and
>now ubiquitous, server-side inclusion beats frames in efficiency and
>function in the same manner...there is no reason in my opinion to ever
>use frames unless your are stuck with hosting that doesn't even offer
>server-side, (but even that is a lame excuse with so many free servers
>with php out there).

>
That said, if you're only doing a bit of templating to replace frames,
an offline preprocessor is probably a better way to make the site. PHP
would be like using a chainsaw to chop through a twig, and about as
safe.
>

If we have a 1/2 dozen pages maybe, but every time you make a change an
edit your have to re-preprocess and upload the entire site gets old
really fast.

<html>
<head>...</head>
<body>
<?php
include_once('i ncludes/banner.inc.php' );
include_once('i ncludes/nav.inc.php');
?>

.... rest of page ...

<?php include_once('i ncludes/footer.inc.php' ); ?>
</body>
</html>

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO

http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

[Bergamot]

Re: Frames -- Disable/Enable Menus


dorayme wrote:

In article <676505F2nqtelU 2@mid.individua l.net>,
Bergamot <bergamot@visi. comwrote:
>

>If you asked how you could shoot yourself in the foot, don't you think
>we'd rather talk you out of it than provide step-by-step instructions?

>
Welcome to the hysterical

Hysterical? Hardly. You're the one who sounds hysterical.

fundamentalisms that liken using frames to
shooting oneself.

Um, it was only an example that better illustrates the *discussion* part
of this discussion group than merely stating "frames are bad".

You're only whining about it because it was I who said it.

--
Berg

[Bergamot]

Re: Frames -- Disable/Enable Menus


Jonathan N. Little wrote:

Chris Morris wrote:

>>
>That said, if you're only doing a bit of templating to replace frames,
>an offline preprocessor is probably a better way to make the site.

>
If we have a 1/2 dozen pages maybe, but every time you make a change an
edit your have to re-preprocess and upload the entire site

FWIW, I've been using a preprocessor for years. It's great for small
sites that only get periodic content changes. You only need to
re-preprocess everything if you make a change to one of the common
libraries, like the navbar. Changing text on a single page only needs
that one page redone.

I wouldn't recommend a preprocessor for a large site, but it's great for
smaller ones.

<body>
<?php
include_once('i ncludes/banner.inc.php' );
include_once('i ncludes/nav.inc.php');
?>
>
... rest of page ...
>
<?php include_once('i ncludes/footer.inc.php' ); ?>
</body>

That's not really any different from my preprocessor includes, except
they're not php.

--
Berg

[Jonathan N. Little]

Re: Frames -- Disable/Enable Menus

Bergamot wrote:

That's not really any different from my preprocessor includes, except
they're not php.
>

And you don't have to pre-process...

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO

http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

[Petr Vileta]

Re: Frames -- Disable/Enable Menus

Bergamot wrote:

Petr Vileta wrote:

>Jonathan N. Little wrote:

>>>
>>http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...il&btnG=Search
>>why frames are evil - Google Search

>>
>Yes, I know it, but original question was be about "How to do for
>frames" ;-)

>
If you asked how you could shoot yourself in the foot, don't you think
we'd rather talk you out of it than provide step-by-step instructions?
>

Maybe my English is too bad but I don't understand what you wanted to say.
Somebody asked a solution for frame style pages and I wrote my ideas. What I
did wrong?
--
Petr Vileta, Czech republic
(My server rejects all messages from Yahoo and Hotmail. Send me your
mail from another non-spammer site please.)

Please reply to <petr AT practisoft DOT cz>

[Petr Vileta]

Re: Frames -- Disable/Enable Menus

Jonathan N. Little wrote:

Again with my favorite
analogy, why would a lumberjack cling to his ax after the development
of the chainsaw?

I don't know any lumberjack and don't know why he prefer to use ax instead of
chainsaw :-) Maybe he want to have well-developed body, maybe he don't like
roaring noise, maybe he don't have money to buy gasoline.
But back to IT world. Maybe author of question not have access to use server
side solution, maybe he not have knowledge to do it, maybe a pages are too
simple to solve it in other way then frames.
--
Petr Vileta, Czech republic
(My server rejects all messages from Yahoo and Hotmail. Send me your
mail from another non-spammer site please.)

Please reply to <petr AT practisoft DOT cz>

[Jonathan N. Little]

Re: Frames -- Disable/Enable Menus

Petr Vileta wrote:

But back to IT world. Maybe author of question not have access to use
server side solution,

Server side was rare and expensive in 1990s not common and cheap

maybe he not have knowledge to do it,

Tutorials up the "wazoo"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=php+tutorials&btnG=Search

php tutorials - Google Search

maybe a
pages are too simple to solve it in other way then frames.

<frameset cols = "25%,*">
<frame src ="menu.htm" />
<frame src ="content.ht m" />
</frameset>

vs

<?php include_once('m enu.htm'); ?>
<div id="content">
<p>This page's content....






--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO

http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

[dorayme]

Re: Frames -- Disable/Enable Menus

In article <1acb4$480f3b8e $40cba7b9$16079 @NAXS.COM>,
"Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@centra l.netwrote:

dorayme wrote:

In article <e43ee$480eb9f0 $40cba7d0$30965 @NAXS.COM>,
"Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@centra l.netwrote:

dorayme wrote:
>
>The development of the chain saw does not preclude the use of simpler or
>older tools.
>>
If the objective is to drop a tree, and there is an ax and a saw before
you, unless one is a masochist, the obvious choice is the [chain] saw.

>
Actually just about *any* saw beats the ax in efficiency when felling a
tree.

Personally, I prefer to carry an axe around wherever I go. Saw's are so
cumbersome, hard to sharpen, awkward to use, they simply do not have
that quick draw, ever ready to kill, quality about them that I need at
all times when I am away from my computer. Above all, you can't throw a
saw. Very important.

I am sorry, you really ought to allow a few nice frames sites to exist
and not stamp them out. Tell you what, as a special offer for 3 days
only, you can get a membership to Framepeace for $US 8.50. After you
have read the literature it puts out, carefully (there is a little
examination on this, small fee of $US 3.50 for entry) and your heart is
not shattered by some of the sad stories of once proud framed sites, I
will give you your money back (save a small admin fee, that is only
fair.)

--
dorayme

[dorayme]

Re: Frames -- Disable/Enable Menus

In article <679cphF2nsqmjU 1@mid.individua l.net>,
Bergamot <bergamot@visi. comwrote:

dorayme wrote:

In article <676505F2nqtelU 2@mid.individua l.net>,
Bergamot <bergamot@visi. comwrote:

If you asked how you could shoot yourself in the foot, don't you think
we'd rather talk you out of it than provide step-by-step instructions?

Welcome to the hysterical idea that making the odd improvement
to an old framed site is like shooting oneself!

>
Hysterical? Hardly. You're the one who sounds hysterical.
>

Have you ever pondered the interesting distinction between being
hysterical and sounding so? A serious minded, compact delivery can be
the tip of an iceberg whose nature is very different. And vice versa.

--
dorayme

[dorayme]

Re: Frames -- Disable/Enable Menus

In article <fuomak$2mf7$2@ ns.felk.cvut.cz >,
"Petr Vileta" <stoupa@practis oft.czwrote:

Jonathan N. Little wrote:

Again with my favorite
analogy, why would a lumberjack cling to his ax after the development
of the chainsaw?

I don't know any lumberjack and don't know why he prefer to use ax instead of
chainsaw :-) Maybe he want to have well-developed body, maybe he don't like
roaring noise, maybe he don't have money to buy gasoline.
But back to IT world. Maybe author of question not have access to use server
side solution, maybe he not have knowledge to do it, maybe a pages are too
simple to solve it in other way then frames.

Maybe the chap already has a framed site and it is nice enough and he
just wants to make it a bit better. What's the matter with everyone when
it comes to frames. People seem to get all emotional! Chainsaws, axes,
guns. For God's sake, fellers, get a grip! It is just a website! Let OP
have it and help him.

Talking about helping, if OP is still around, I recommend he reads:

<http://www.markparnell .com.au/articles/frames.php>

--
dorayme

[dorayme]

Re: Frames -- Disable/Enable Menus

In article <aa68a$480fe881 $40cba7ca$17151 @NAXS.COM>,
"Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@centra l.netwrote:

Petr Vileta wrote:
>

But back to IT world. Maybe author of question not have access to use
server side solution,

>
Server side was rare and expensive in 1990s not common and cheap
>

maybe he not have knowledge to do it,

>
Tutorials up the "wazoo"
>
>

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=php+tutorials&btnG=Search

php tutorials - Google Search
>

maybe a
pages are too simple to solve it in other way then frames.

>
<frameset cols = "25%,*">
<frame src ="menu.htm" />
<frame src ="content.ht m" />
</frameset>
>
vs
>
<?php include_once('m enu.htm'); ?>
<div id="content">
<p>This page's content....

I just love how folks fail to address the fact that frames keeps the
menu from scrolling away in a natural manner. You can't simply say use
includes and walk away!

--
dorayme

[Chris Morris]

Re: Frames -- Disable/Enable Menus

"Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@centra l.netwrites:

Chris Morris wrote:

"Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@centra l.netwrites:
That said, if you're only doing a bit of templating to replace
frames, an offline preprocessor is probably a better way to make
the site. PHP would be like using a chainsaw to chop through a
twig, and about as safe.

>
If we have a 1/2 dozen pages maybe, but every time you make a change
an edit your have to re-preprocess and upload the entire site gets old
really fast.

Perhaps. The 'make' command comes in very useful. Set up the
dependencies, only rebuild the changed pages, and then automatically
move the new pages into place. The largest site I've maintained by
preprocessing had a few hundred pages and was easy enough to do.

--
Chris

[Bergamot]

Re: Frames -- Disable/Enable Menus


Petr Vileta wrote:

Bergamot wrote:

>>
>If you asked how you could shoot yourself in the foot, don't you think
>we'd rather talk you out of it than provide step-by-step instructions?
>>

Maybe my English is too bad but I don't understand what you wanted to say.

Sorry. "Shoot yourself in the foot" means you are doing something bad to
yourself.

The point is that this is a discussion group, not a help desk. If
somebody posts a question about how to do something that we consider a
bad practice, most of the regular posters here would rather tell them
why it is bad and show them better solutions instead of giving the
answer they wanted to hear.

Somebody asked a solution for frame style pages and I wrote my ideas.

We don't want to encourage frames. There are almost always better ways
to do whatever the poster wants to do.

--
Berg