difference between h1 and title

[MozillaCensorsMe]

Re: difference between h1 and title

"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.nony.mous@ex ample.invalid> wrote in message news:<b8rBb.54$ JR3.1@twister.n yroc.rr.com>...[color=blue]
> Quoth the raven named MozillaCensorsM e:
>[color=green]
> > "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.nony.mous@ex ample.invalid> wrote in message news:<sObBb.196 348$ZC4.7048@tw ister.nyroc.rr. com>...
> >[color=darkred]
> >>Quoth the raven named andkonDOTcom:
> >>
> >>>There is no reason for hostility. If you take a look at any article on
> >>>my website (say the neutral flood one:
> >>>http://www.andkon.com/stuf/flood/flood.html) you will find that the h1
> >>>and title are the same.
> >>
> >>I'd recommend fixing that page before too many people have a look. The
> >>script at the end is not enclosed within the script tags.
> >>
> >><script type="text/javascript"></script>
> >>var menu=document.f orm.selectmenu; ...
> >>
> >>..thus showing the script in the browser.[/color]
> >
> > Where...?
> >
> > It's enclosed...[/color]
>
> Not in my browser. Here is your source, at the end of the page.
> Doesn't look as if it is finished.
>
> <script type="text/javascript"></script>
> var menu=document.f orm.selectmenu;
> var contentobj=docu ment.getElement ById('area');
> function whatsyour(pic){
> var message=menu.op tions[menu.selectedIn dex].value;
> var extension= message.substri ng(message.last IndexOf(".")+1) ;
> if (extension=="AV I"){
> contentobj.inne rHTML='
>
>
> http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagna...ges/andkon.jpg[/color]

I'm gonna guess that you are using a buggy/old version of Firebird...
I checked with "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.5)
Gecko/20030925 Firebird/0.7" and it works fine.

[Mark Parnell]

Re: difference between h1 and title

Sometime around Tue, 09 Dec 2003 21:28:39 GMT, Beauregard T. Shagnasty is
reported to have stated:
[color=blue]
> Quoth the raven named MozillaCensorsM e:
>[color=green]
>> "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.nony.mous@ex ample.invalid> wrote in message news:<sObBb.196 348$ZC4.7048@tw ister.nyroc.rr. com>...
>>[color=darkred]
>>>Quoth the raven named andkonDOTcom:
>>>
>>>>http://www.andkon.com/stuf/flood/flood.html)
>>>[/color][/color]
>
> http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagna...ges/andkon.jpg[/color]

Is fine here (Moz1.5). Source says:

<script type="text/javascript">
var menu=document.f orm.selectmenu;
var contentobj=docu ment.getElement ById('area');
function whatsyour(pic){
var message=menu.op tions[menu.selectedIn dex].value;
var extension= message.substri ng(message.last IndexOf(".")+1) ;
if (extension=="AV I"){
contentobj.inne rHTML='<embed src="'+pic+'" autoplay="false " loop="false"
volume="50" />';}
if (extension=="JP G"){
contentobj.inne rHTML='<img src="'+pic+'" height="384" alt="" />';}}
</script>

???

What happens when you actually view the source?

--
Mark Parnell

http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au

[Michael Bauser]

Re: difference between h1 and title

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Boy, this thread got bloody, and quickly.

mozillacensorsm e@yahoo.com (MozillaCensors Me) wrote in message
news:<39665a4.0 312072233.e2da3 fb@posting.goog le.com>...[color=blue]
> Hello,
>
> While I haven't finished my wonderful tutorial to save the world, I
> do have a simple question.
>
> What's the difference between h1 and the title tag?
>
> For me it seems as though both can be used interchangebly. For
> example, the articles on my site (andkon.com) have the same title
> as h1. Comments?[/color]

Sometimes the content of the title and h1 elements *should* be
different, because the content is seen (by users) in different
contexts. Look at it this way:

The title content is often seen in a context *outside of the page* --
it's often first seen (by users) in search engine result pages, for
instance. It's also used as the default label in browser bookmarks.
Other sites often use it as link text. Since the user isn't actually
looking at the page, the title needs to carry more information about
the page than h1 does.

The h1 content is (except in extraordinary circumstances) always seen
as part of the rendered page. The user has more context about the
page, so the h1 doesn't have to carry quite so much information.

The difference is more important with "inside pages" (deep links)
than the top pages of sites. For example, the "table of contents" for
example.com might use these two slightly different elements:

<title>Example. com Table of Contents</title>

<h1>Table of Contents</h1>

The title element "overexplai ns" because you don't want someone to
bookmark the page, then look at the bookmark months later and wonder
"Table of Contents for what?". It's a usability issue. (I almost
always put the site title in the "title" element, because of the
bookmark issue. Unique identifiers to create unique bookmarks.)

On the other hand, the h1 element can afford to "underexpla in",
because people actually reading the page have probably figured out
where they are already.

Does this help?

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iQA/AwUBP9bIm3KbhCU 9m6R7EQJG9gCgyr 8m5R5u3UPaf8Mqs g3QoI54v2AAoLt8
//q36M/qt5qI1MN+GI/ZMRTL
=Qbdn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Re: difference between h1 and title

Quoth the raven named Mark Parnell:
[color=blue]
> Sometime around Tue, 09 Dec 2003 21:28:39 GMT, Beauregard T. Shagnasty is
> reported to have stated:
>[color=green]
>>Quoth the raven named MozillaCensorsM e:
>>[color=darkred]
>>>"Beauregar d T. Shagnasty" <a.nony.mous@ex ample.invalid> wrote in message news:<sObBb.196 348$ZC4.7048@tw ister.nyroc.rr. com>...
>>>
>>>>Quoth the raven named andkonDOTcom:
>>>>
>>>>>http://www.andkon.com/stuf/flood/flood.html)
>>>>[/color]
>>http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagna...ges/andkon.jpg[/color]
>
> Is fine here (Moz1.5). Source says:
>
> <script type="text/javascript">
> var menu=document.f orm.selectmenu;
> var contentobj=docu ment.getElement ById('area');
> function whatsyour(pic){
> var message=menu.op tions[menu.selectedIn dex].value;
> var extension= message.substri ng(message.last IndexOf(".")+1) ;
> if (extension=="AV I"){
> contentobj.inne rHTML='<embed src="'+pic+'" autoplay="false " loop="false"
> volume="50" />';}
> if (extension=="JP G"){
> contentobj.inne rHTML='<img src="'+pic+'" height="384" alt="" />';}}
> </script>
>
> ???
>
> What happens when you actually view the source?[/color]

What you snipped is what I see, and copied from, in the source. My
Firebird is 0.7, and it is exactly the same - truncated - in Opera 7.2
and IE6. The document source ends with the single quote after the
first innerHTML. Oddly, it works ok in Netscape 7.01 and Mozilla 1.1.

Before my last post, I had looked only in F'bird 0.7 and IE6. Maybe
there is some hidden non-visible character in his document?

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: difference between h1 and title


"Michael Bauser" <michael@bauser .com> wrote in message
news:4d468dd6.0 312092318.28411 155@posting.goo gle.com...[color=blue]
>
> On the other hand, the h1 element can afford to "underexpla in",
> because people actually reading the page have probably figured out
> where they are already.
>[/color]

Or because the page has a graphic banner telling them!

[MozillaCensorsMe]

Re: difference between h1 and title

michael@bauser. com (Michael Bauser) wrote in message news:<4d468dd6. 0312092318.2841 1155@posting.go ogle.com>...[color=blue]
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Boy, this thread got bloody, and quickly.
>
> mozillacensorsm e@yahoo.com (MozillaCensors Me) wrote in message
> news:<39665a4.0 312072233.e2da3 fb@posting.goog le.com>...[color=green]
> > Hello,
> >
> > While I haven't finished my wonderful tutorial to save the world, I
> > do have a simple question.
> >
> > What's the difference between h1 and the title tag?
> >
> > For me it seems as though both can be used interchangebly. For
> > example, the articles on my site (andkon.com) have the same title
> > as h1. Comments?[/color]
>
> Sometimes the content of the title and h1 elements *should* be
> different, because the content is seen (by users) in different
> contexts. Look at it this way:
>
> The title content is often seen in a context *outside of the page* --
> it's often first seen (by users) in search engine result pages, for
> instance. It's also used as the default label in browser bookmarks.
> Other sites often use it as link text. Since the user isn't actually
> looking at the page, the title needs to carry more information about
> the page than h1 does.
>
> The h1 content is (except in extraordinary circumstances) always seen
> as part of the rendered page. The user has more context about the
> page, so the h1 doesn't have to carry quite so much information.
>
> The difference is more important with "inside pages" (deep links)
> than the top pages of sites. For example, the "table of contents" for
> example.com might use these two slightly different elements:
>
> <title>Example. com Table of Contents</title>
>
> <h1>Table of Contents</h1>
>
> The title element "overexplai ns" because you don't want someone to
> bookmark the page, then look at the bookmark months later and wonder
> "Table of Contents for what?". It's a usability issue. (I almost
> always put the site title in the "title" element, because of the
> bookmark issue. Unique identifiers to create unique bookmarks.)
>
> On the other hand, the h1 element can afford to "underexpla in",
> because people actually reading the page have probably figured out
> where they are already.
>
> Does this help?
>[/color]

Indeed.

[MozillaCensorsMe]

Re: difference between h1 and title

"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.nony.mous@ex ample.invalid> wrote in message news:<ROzBb.549 $JW3.24@twister .nyroc.rr.com>. ..[color=blue]
> Quoth the raven named Mark Parnell:
>[color=green]
> > Sometime around Tue, 09 Dec 2003 21:28:39 GMT, Beauregard T. Shagnasty is
> > reported to have stated:
> >[color=darkred]
> >>Quoth the raven named MozillaCensorsM e:
> >>
> >>>"Beauregar d T. Shagnasty" <a.nony.mous@ex ample.invalid> wrote in message news:<sObBb.196 348$ZC4.7048@tw ister.nyroc.rr. com>...
> >>>
> >>>>Quoth the raven named andkonDOTcom:
> >>>>
> >>>>>http://www.andkon.com/stuf/flood/flood.html)
> >>>>
> >>http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagna...ges/andkon.jpg[/color]
> >
> > Is fine here (Moz1.5). Source says:
> >
> > <script type="text/javascript">
> > var menu=document.f orm.selectmenu;
> > var contentobj=docu ment.getElement ById('area');
> > function whatsyour(pic){
> > var message=menu.op tions[menu.selectedIn dex].value;
> > var extension= message.substri ng(message.last IndexOf(".")+1) ;
> > if (extension=="AV I"){
> > contentobj.inne rHTML='<embed src="'+pic+'" autoplay="false " loop="false"
> > volume="50" />';}
> > if (extension=="JP G"){
> > contentobj.inne rHTML='<img src="'+pic+'" height="384" alt="" />';}}
> > </script>
> >
> > ???
> >
> > What happens when you actually view the source?[/color]
>
> What you snipped is what I see, and copied from, in the source. My
> Firebird is 0.7, and it is exactly the same - truncated - in Opera 7.2
> and IE6. The document source ends with the single quote after the
> first innerHTML. Oddly, it works ok in Netscape 7.01 and Mozilla 1.1.
>
> Before my last post, I had looked only in F'bird 0.7 and IE6. Maybe
> there is some hidden non-visible character in his document?[/color]

Really odd... Completely enclosed with Opera 7.23 for me.

[Daniel R. Tobias]

Re: difference between h1 and title

"Harlan Messinger" <h.messinger@co mcast.net> wrote in message news:<br7ffe$6p 96$1@ID-114100.news.uni-berlin.de>...[color=blue]
> "Michael Bauser" <michael@bauser .com> wrote in message
> news:4d468dd6.0 312092318.28411 155@posting.goo gle.com...[color=green]
> >
> > On the other hand, the h1 element can afford to "underexpla in",
> > because people actually reading the page have probably figured out
> > where they are already.[/color]
>
> Or because the page has a graphic banner telling them![/color]

If the graphic banner is serving as the main header, then it ought to
be within an <H1> element, with appropriate ALT text for the image.

--
Dan

[Mark Parnell]

Re: difference between h1 and title

Sometime around Wed, 10 Dec 2003 07:20:17 GMT, Beauregard T. Shagnasty is
reported to have stated:[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>>>>>http://www.andkon.com/stuf/flood/flood.html)[/color][/color]
> My
> Firebird is 0.7, and it is exactly the same - truncated - in Opera 7.2
> and IE6. The document source ends with the single quote after the
> first innerHTML. Oddly, it works ok in Netscape 7.01 and Mozilla 1.1.
>
> Before my last post, I had looked only in F'bird 0.7 and IE6. Maybe
> there is some hidden non-visible character in his document?[/color]

Weird. It works fine here in Moz1.5, IE6, O7.21, O6.04.

No stray scripts in Lynx, either (though of course, the scripts don't
actually work).

--
Mark Parnell

http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Re: difference between h1 and title

Quoth the raven named Mark Parnell:
[color=blue]
> Sometime around Wed, 10 Dec 2003 07:20:17 GMT, Beauregard T.
> Shagnasty is reported to have stated:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>>>>> http://www.andkon.com/stuf/flood/flood.html)[/color]
>>
>> My Firebird is 0.7, and it is exactly the same - truncated - in
>> Opera 7.2 and IE6. The document source ends with the single quote
>> after the first innerHTML. Oddly, it works ok in Netscape 7.01
>> and Mozilla 1.1.
>>
>> Before my last post, I had looked only in F'bird 0.7 and IE6.
>> Maybe there is some hidden non-visible character in his document?[/color]
>
> Weird. It works fine here in Moz1.5, IE6, O7.21, O6.04.[/color]

Weird is right. I have solved the mystery. It's my Kerio 4.0.7
firewall. On the Web tab, there is a checkbox for
[X] Enable web filtering I had it checked.
The only other options checked are to block VBScripts and ActiveX.

Unchecking the [ ] Enable web filtering allows andkon's page to
display normally, in all my browsers and in source.

I've been using this version of Kerio since a day or two after it was
released, and no other sites I've visited exhibit this phenomenon.

Further testing reveals that toggling the [X] Enable ActiveX is what
is preventing his page from working correctly. So... Kerio thinks that
script at the bottom of the page is an ActiveX control? How quaint!
[color=blue]
> No stray scripts in Lynx, either (though of course, the scripts
> don't actually work).[/color]

I copied the whole source of the flood page from the Sam Spade safe
browser to a page and put it on web spaces of mine (sans CSS and
graphics) and it works the same way.

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: difference between h1 and title


"Daniel R. Tobias" <dan@tobias.nam e> wrote in message
news:aab17256.0 312101354.5a737 346@posting.goo gle.com...[color=blue]
> "Harlan Messinger" <h.messinger@co mcast.net> wrote in message[/color]
news:<br7ffe$6p 96$1@ID-114100.news.uni-berlin.de>...[color=blue][color=green]
> > "Michael Bauser" <michael@bauser .com> wrote in message
> > news:4d468dd6.0 312092318.28411 155@posting.goo gle.com...[color=darkred]
> > >
> > > On the other hand, the h1 element can afford to "underexpla in",
> > > because people actually reading the page have probably figured out
> > > where they are already.[/color]
> >
> > Or because the page has a graphic banner telling them![/color]
>
> If the graphic banner is serving as the main header, then it ought to
> be within an <H1> element, with appropriate ALT text for the image.[/color]

I had never thought of that until I saw it alluded to here in the time I've
been in the newsgroup. Seems like a great idea. Just now I was thinking
there might be a problem, but I may also have just solved it. Typically, the
banner will be the name of the company or of the web site, and the first
text header will identify the particular page.

Banner: XYZ Industries
Text Header: Our Products

And typically "Our Products" would be <h1>, even before considering the idea
of putting the banner into an <h1> But there is usually stuff *between* the
banner and the text header--all the navigation links, for example. So the
banner and the text header would have to be in two separate <h1> tags, which
would imply that the page was being conceptually divided into two sections,
which of course it isn't.

So I guess the *solution* is to put "Our Products" into an <h2> instead of
<h1>. Does that seem right?

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Re: difference between h1 and title

"Harlan Messinger" <h.messinger@co mcast.net> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Typically, the
> banner will be the name of the company or of the web site, and the
> first text header will identify the particular page.
>
> Banner: XYZ Industries
> Text Header: Our Products
>
> And typically "Our Products" would be <h1>, even before considering
> the idea of putting the banner into an <h1>[/color]

Yes, the text that is descriptive of the overall content of the page
deserves to be marked up as <h1>. The role of the banner is more
debatable.
[color=blue]
> But there is usually
> stuff *between* the banner and the text header--all the navigation
> links, for example.[/color]

Unfortunately, yes. Navigation links shouldn't be there but at the end
of the page, perhaps positioned visually in the upper right corner or,
to follow suit when playing the Navigation Game, on the left. (That's
relatively easy to do using CSS.)
[color=blue]
> So the banner and the text header would have to
> be in two separate <h1> tags, which would imply that the page was
> being conceptually divided into two sections, which of course it
> isn't.[/color]

And the banner isn't really an <h1> header, especially not as a
separated element. If the banner is adjacent to the header, you could
use
<h1><small><i mg src="header.gif " alt="XYZ Industries>
[color=blue]
>
> So I guess the *solution* is to put "Our Products" into an <h2>
> instead of <h1>. Does that seem right?
>[/color]



--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Re: difference between h1 and title

"Harlan Messinger" <h.messinger@co mcast.net> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Typically, the
> banner will be the name of the company or of the web site, and the
> first text header will identify the particular page.
>
> Banner: XYZ Industries
> Text Header: Our Products
>
> And typically "Our Products" would be <h1>, even before considering
> the idea of putting the banner into an <h1>[/color]

Yes, the text that is descriptive of the overall content of the page
deserves to be marked up as <h1>. The role of the banner is more
debatable.
[color=blue]
> But there is usually
> stuff *between* the banner and the text header--all the navigation
> links, for example.[/color]

Unfortunately, yes. Navigation links shouldn't be there but at the end
of the page, perhaps positioned visually in the upper right corner or,
to follow suit when playing the Navigation Game, on the left. (That's
relatively easy to do using CSS.)
[color=blue]
> So the banner and the text header would have to
> be in two separate <h1> tags, which would imply that the page was
> being conceptually divided into two sections, which of course it
> isn't.[/color]

And the banner isn't really an <h1> header, especially not as a
separated element. If the banner is adjacent to the header, you could
use
<h1><small><i mg src="header.gif " alt="XYZ Industries></small><br>
Our Products</h1>
since the banner could be regarded as _part_ of the main heading just
as you should probably write
<title>Produc ts of XYZ Industries</title>.
But if the two are separated, it's a different issue. Again, you could
try and put the navigation last in HTML markup and position it visually
between the banner and the heading proper.
[color=blue]
> So I guess the *solution* is to put "Our Products" into an <h2>
> instead of <h1>. Does that seem right?[/color]

No, not at all. It's surely a first-level heading. The heading levels
are supposed to reflect the structure of the _page_, not of some site
that the page might be part of.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: difference between h1 and title


"Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tu t.fi> wrote in message
news:Xns944EBE4 32E94Fjkorpelac stutfi@193.229. 0.31...[color=blue]
> "Harlan Messinger" <h.messinger@co mcast.net> wrote:
>[color=green]
> > Typically, the
> > banner will be the name of the company or of the web site, and the
> > first text header will identify the particular page.
> >
> > Banner: XYZ Industries
> > Text Header: Our Products
> >
> > And typically "Our Products" would be <h1>, even before considering
> > the idea of putting the banner into an <h1>[/color]
>
> Yes, the text that is descriptive of the overall content of the page
> deserves to be marked up as <h1>. The role of the banner is more
> debatable.
>[color=green]
> > But there is usually
> > stuff *between* the banner and the text header--all the navigation
> > links, for example.[/color]
>
> Unfortunately, yes. Navigation links shouldn't be there but at the end
> of the page, perhaps positioned visually in the upper right corner or,
> to follow suit when playing the Navigation Game, on the left. (That's
> relatively easy to do using CSS.)[/color]

Granted. But in a world with Netscape 4.x ....
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > So the banner and the text header would have to
> > be in two separate <h1> tags, which would imply that the page was
> > being conceptually divided into two sections, which of course it
> > isn't.[/color]
>
> And the banner isn't really an <h1> header, especially not as a
> separated element. If the banner is adjacent to the header, you could
> use
> <h1><small><i mg src="header.gif " alt="XYZ Industries></small><br>
> Our Products</h1>
> since the banner could be regarded as _part_ of the main heading just
> as you should probably write
> <title>Produc ts of XYZ Industries</title>.
> But if the two are separated, it's a different issue. Again, you could
> try and put the navigation last in HTML markup and position it visually
> between the banner and the heading proper.
>[color=green]
> > So I guess the *solution* is to put "Our Products" into an <h2>
> > instead of <h1>. Does that seem right?[/color]
>
> No, not at all. It's surely a first-level heading. The heading levels
> are supposed to reflect the structure of the _page_, not of some site
> that the page might be part of.
>[/color]

Ah.

To summarize, you disagree with Daniel on the subject of putting the banner
into <h1>.

How about this? Don't put the banner in <h1>, and for the text header use

<h1 title="XYZ Industries: Our Products">Our Products</h1>

[Mark Parnell]

Re: difference between h1 and title

Sometime around Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:50:33 -0500, Harlan Messinger is
reported to have stated:[color=blue]
>
> To summarize, you disagree with Daniel on the subject of putting the banner
> into <h1>.
>[/color]

I think Daniel was referring more to if the banner was "Our Products",
rather than the site/company name.

"Our Products" is definitely the main heading for the page, so it should be
a <h1> (and you should only have 1 <h1> per page).

The company name would possibly be the main heading for the front page of
the site, but not subsequent pages.

--
Mark Parnell

http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au