How to detect table width or height?

[Brian]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Dennis wrote:[color=blue]
>
> The problem of getting multiple columns of text in the
> viewport (that prompted me to start this thread) has led me to decide
> on using Flash as my main medium.[/color]

You're kidding, right?
[color=blue]
> I think Flash will do what CSS is
> too immature to yet do.[/color]

Hmm. Maybe you're actually serious.
[color=blue]
> Now, when CSS "catches up", it will surpass Flash[/color]

They are not competing technologies.
[color=blue]
> if you were to use Flash, you'd
> know at every moment the height and width of the viewer's browser
> window. So you could either just download the image that best fits
> their screen or let the Flash player scale whatever size image you
> use.[/color]

Yep, you are serious. Well, that's a swell "solution." A site
presented in Flash is my cue to hit the back button. I suppose I
ought to thank Macromedia for saving me the trouble of messing with
the site any more than that. I see that "get the plug-in" window, and
it's alt-left arrow, and onto something worth my time.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[kchayka]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Dennis wrote:[color=blue]
>
> The problem of getting multiple columns of text in the
> viewport (that prompted me to start this thread) has led me to decide
> on using Flash as my main medium.[/color]

You have decided that this look you envision is more important than
usability and accessibility? Just what we need, another unusable Flash
site. <heavy sigh>

--
To email a reply, remove (dash)un(dash). Mail sent to the un
address is considered spam and automatically deleted.

[Stan Brown]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

In article <623sov8vmb8d9u kjuuqcdpb6idb00 k01gs@4ax.com> in
comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html, Dennis
<theonlyDennis@ removeForSpam_m indspring.com> wrote:[color=blue]
>The problem of getting multiple columns of text in the
>viewport (that prompted me to start this thread) has led me to decide
>on using Flash as my main medium. I think Flash will do what CSS is
>too immature to yet do.[/color]

It will, for people who have Flash installed and turned on.

Many people don't have it installed; many who do have it installed
have turned it off because so much Flash is just annoying time-
wasting "kewl" visual effect.

So your choice by using Flash is for complete success or complete
failure, as opposed to 100% success or partial success if you don't
use Flash.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA

http://OakRoadSystems.com/

HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

[Dennis]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 05:24:48 GMT, Brian
<usenet1@mangym utt.com.invalid-remove-this-part> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Dennis wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> The problem of getting multiple columns of text in the
>> viewport (that prompted me to start this thread) has led me to decide
>> on using Flash as my main medium.[/color]
>
>You're kidding, right?
>[color=green]
>> I think Flash will do what CSS is
>> too immature to yet do.[/color]
>
>Hmm. Maybe you're actually serious.
>[color=green]
>> Now, when CSS "catches up", it will surpass Flash[/color]
>
>They are not competing technologies.
>[color=green]
>> if you were to use Flash, you'd
>> know at every moment the height and width of the viewer's browser
>> window. So you could either just download the image that best fits
>> their screen or let the Flash player scale whatever size image you
>> use.[/color]
>
>Yep, you are serious. Well, that's a swell "solution." A site
>presented in Flash is my cue to hit the back button. I suppose I
>ought to thank Macromedia for saving me the trouble of messing with
>the site any more than that. I see that "get the plug-in" window, and
>it's alt-left arrow, and onto something worth my time.[/color]

Look at your words carefully. Your only criticism of Flash is that
you don't like it and avoid it. That's hardly a "criticism" , or maybe
you are just venting your feelings. Sorry I upset you.

[Dennis]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 07:26:10 -0500, kchayka <kcha-un-yka@sihope.com>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>You have decided that this look you envision is more important than
>usability and accessibility?[/color]

No. I am doing it in Flash precisely for usability. A page is more
usable if the user can see at a glance where everything is and not
have to scroll around to find it. And steps can be taken to make it
also accessible.
[color=blue]
> Just what we need, another unusable Flash
>site. <heavy sigh>[/color]

This reminds me of Emerson's comment, "Foolish consistency is the
hobgoblin of little minds." Take out the question-begging word
"foolish" and it loses its force. Take out "unusable" from your
comment and it too loses its force.

Dennis

[Dennis]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:50:26 -0400, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown @fastmail.fm> wrote:
[color=blue]
>It will, for people who have Flash installed and turned on.
>
>Many people don't have it installed; many who do have it installed
>have turned it off because so much Flash is just annoying time-
>wasting "kewl" visual effect.
>
>So your choice by using Flash is for complete success or complete
>failure, as opposed to 100% success or partial success if you don't
>use Flash.[/color]

Something like 97% of web surfers out there do. And those few who
don't can easily get it. End of problem.

Dennis

[EightNineThree]

Re: How to detect table width or height?


"Dennis" <theonlyDennis@ removeForSpam_m indspring.com> wrote in message
news:si61pvsk6i 4vp8sueh05h15po vlo4esrrl@4ax.c om...[color=blue]
> On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 07:26:10 -0500, kchayka <kcha-un-yka@sihope.com>
> wrote:
>[color=green]
> >You have decided that this look you envision is more important than
> >usability and accessibility?[/color]
>
> No. I am doing it in Flash precisely for usability. A page is more
> usable if the user can see at a glance where everything is and not
> have to scroll around to find it. And steps can be taken to make it
> also accessible.[/color]

You obviously don't have the slightest clue about what usability is.

--
Karl Core

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not
cease to be insipid.
Friedrich Nietzsche

eightninethree AT eightninethree. com

[Tina Holmboe]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Dennis <theonlyDennis@ removeForSpam_m indspring.com> exclaimed in <si61pvsk6i4vp8 sueh05h15povlo4 esrrl@4ax.com>:
[color=blue]
> No. I am doing it in Flash precisely for usability. A page is more
> usable if the user can see at a glance where everything is and not
> have to scroll around to find it. And steps can be taken to make it[/color]

You are right; a page is more usable if the user can see at a glance
where everything is and not have to scroll around it.

Your mistake is making the assumption that you are able to ensure that
this is the case.

Your job is making sure the document itself can adapt to the users
situation. Assuming you know anything at all regarding said situation
is arrogant and a pointless waste of time.

Naturally, the choice of what to do is up to you.

--
- Tina Holmboe Greytower Technologies
tina@greytower. net http://www.greytower.net/
[+46] 0708 557 905

[Tina Holmboe]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Dennis <theonlyDennis@ removeForSpam_m indspring.com> exclaimed in <5281pvk3bu9udn l822tpg25vucctb sovv7@4ax.com>:
[color=blue]
> Something like 97% of web surfers out there do. And those few who
> don't can easily get it. End of problem.[/color]

Flash is not available for all users or all UAs. Depending on it is
not useful.

Of course, with the arrogance your posting shows, "useful" wouldn't
be your first priority.

--
- Tina Holmboe Greytower Technologies
tina@greytower. net http://www.greytower.net/
[+46] 0708 557 905

[Brian]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Dennis wrote:[color=blue]
>
> Something like 97% of web surfers out there do.[/color]

Source, please. Or did you just make this up?
[color=blue]
> And those few who don't can easily get it.[/color]

If it's available, they can consider getting it. Whether they
actually go to the trouble of downloading and installing software for
your content is another matter.
[color=blue]
> End of problem.[/color]

Keep deluding yourself.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[Brian]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Dennis wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>>
>> Well, that's a swell "solution." A site presented in Flash is my
>> cue to hit the back button.[/color]
>
> Look at your words carefully. Your only criticism of Flash is that
> you don't like it and avoid it.[/color]

What's to like? It's used only for ads and gratuitous "kewl" effects.
[color=blue]
> That's hardly a "criticism" , or maybe you are just venting your
> feelings. Sorry I upset you.[/color]

No sweat off my nose. Keep up the cluelessness.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[kchayka]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

Dennis wrote:[color=blue]
> On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 07:26:10 -0500, kchayka <kcha-un-yka@sihope.com>
> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>You have decided that this look you envision is more important than
>>usability and accessibility?[/color]
>
> No. I am doing it in Flash precisely for usability. A page is more
> usable if the user can see at a glance where everything is and not
> have to scroll around to find it.[/color]

You are mistaken if you think Flash is the answer. You cannot predict
what the user's preferred window size, text size, or any other
environmental variable may be. The very nature of Flash encourages
inaccessible, inflexible layouts. The user's preference settings are
not part of the equation, thus Flash cannot adapt to the user's settings.

This means that you will create a site that only "works" in a very
narrow band of screen resolution, window size and text size. The rest
of us will be out of luck. If your goal is usability, then your best
bet is a liquid layout that adjusts well to different window and text
sizes. This Flash cannot do, at least I have never seen it done.
[color=blue]
> And steps can be taken to make it also accessible.[/color]

Whatever you do on this front will be inadequate, since Flash's
accessibility features on the authoring side are inadequate.
Accessibility features in the Flash player are pretty much non-existent,
so we users are at your mercy.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Just what we need, another unusable Flash site. <heavy sigh>[/color]
>
> Take out "unusable" from your comment and it too loses its force.[/color]

I have yet to find a Flash site that is usable for me. I am not very
optimistic that whatever you come up with will be any different.

--
To email a reply, remove (dash)un(dash). Mail sent to the un
address is considered spam and automatically deleted.

[Stan Brown]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

In article <5281pvk3bu9udn l822tpg25vucctb sovv7@4ax.com> in
comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html, Dennis
<theonlyDennis@ removeForSpam_m indspring.com> wrote:[color=blue]
>On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:50:26 -0400, Stan Brown
><the_stan_brow n@fastmail.fm> wrote:[color=green]
>>So your choice by using Flash is for complete success or complete
>>failure, as opposed to 100% success or partial success if you don't
>>use Flash.[/color]
>
>Something like 97% of web surfers out there do. And those few who
>don't can easily get it. End of problem.[/color]

97%, huh? Why did you make up that particular number? Why didn't you
say 95%? or 99.2% or 67.1%?

But what will _really_ happen is that people will go to your site,
see that it depends on Flash, and go elsewhere, unless you offer
content that they want and can't get anywhere else, which seems
unlikely.

Why do you post here if you don't want to listen to the feedback you
get?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA

http://OakRoadSystems.com/

HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

[Dennis]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:29:01 -0400, "EightNineThree " <uce@ftc.gov>
wrote:

[color=blue]
>You obviously don't have the slightest clue about what usability is.[/color]

Obviously.

[Dennis]

Re: How to detect table width or height?

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 03:02:52 GMT, tina@greytower. net (Tina Holmboe)
wrote:
[color=blue]
> You are right; a page is more usable if the user can see at a glance
> where everything is and not have to scroll around it.
>
> Your mistake is making the assumption that you are able to ensure that
> this is the case.[/color]

No authoring environment (flash, CSS, DHTML, straight HTML) can fit
more onto the screen than the screen can hold, so you can't blame me
for not ensuring that. But with Flash, I have complete control in
filling up the window that the user gives me. There are 2 relevant
Flash ActionScript commands, stage.width and stage.height. These tell
you within a pixel how big the user's window is. If the window is big
enough to hold the content, I can put the content wherever I choose to
make it easiest to see. If the content is too great for the window, I
can either put multiple "pages" in or put in good old fashioned scroll
bars --horizontal or vertical as I choose. It's like CSS on steroids.[color=blue]
>
> Your job is making sure the document itself can adapt to the users
> situation. Assuming you know anything at all regarding said situation
> is arrogant and a pointless waste of time.[/color]

I agree! I don't assume to know the user's situation (eg. window
size) is, but I can program Flash for WHATEVER it might be. That's my
whole point. Without Flash (or a more mature CSS) I have to aim at the
middle of the bell curve (what, 800 by 600?) and let automatic
scrolling and huge empty borders do the rest. It's very ironic
because I attempting to accomplish in a more thoroughgoing way
precisely what you are saying that I am ignoring.

Dennis