Access vs SQL

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  • Scott M.

    #61
    Re: Access vs SQL

    > ¤ No actually here is what aatcbbtccctc@ya hoo.com said:[color=blue]
    > ¤
    > ¤ "Access is *not* a database."
    > ¤
    > ¤ He didn't say that an .mdb is not an Access file. My comments here and
    > ¤ earlier have been part of the discussion..
    >
    > Yes he did:
    >[color=green][color=darkred]
    >>>[/color][/color]
    > I suspect your mistake is in believing that an MDB file is an *Access*
    > file. It is not - it is a *Jet* file, in which Access is able to store
    > its own things (in addition to the standard Jet things).
    > <<[/color]

    My comments have all pertained to the "Access is *not* a database" remark.
    [color=blue]
    > For the last time...Access can operate on the database file directly. It
    > is not a wrapper.[/color]

    Well, for the last time, yes Access does wrap the JET data and provides a UI
    to that JET data. Microsoft say so much in the article I've provided.
    [color=blue]
    >Does Word wrap a .doc file? Does Excel wrap an .xls file?[/color]

    Your comments keep coming back to does the product wrap it's own file
    extension format file. I have not framed my comments in this way, so I
    don't believe we are discussing the same thing. As I've said over and over:
    Access's .mdb file format contains a JET database as well as Access specific
    items. In this way, Access wraps the JET database. This is the reason you
    can programmaticall y connect to an .mdb file and use the JET database
    contained within it with standard JET DAO's.
    [color=blue]
    > As I questioned in my other post, do we now call .doc and .xls OLE
    > Structure Storage files instead
    > of Word and Excel files because that is the API which is employed?[/color]

    I don't know. Do we? My point has been all along, that most of the time
    (99.9%), you can call it whatever you like. But when splitting hairs, you
    should call it what it is. Now, is OLE a data storage paradigm? No, it is
    a broad term regarding a set of interfaces that some object needs to provide
    to be OLE compliant. An apple can be bitten into and so can a bananna, but
    that doesn't make them both apples.
    [color=blue]
    > You may want to consider other sources beyond that article. Especially if
    > you're simply going to
    > ignore the fact that the Jet Database Engine provides only a subset of the
    > functionality that is
    > supported for an Access database. That is a technical fact that cannot be
    > disputed.[/color]

    You're absolutely correct and it has been my point all along! I haven't
    been ignoring this, it's been what I've been saying. An Access file
    contains a JET database as well as other Access-specific items and wraps it
    all up into an .mdb. The article is Microsoft's documentation on JET. What
    better article is there to discuss JET?


    Comment

    • Cor Ligthert

      #62
      Re: Access vs SQL

      Scott,
      [color=blue]
      > An apple can be bitten into and so can a bananna, but that doesn't make
      > them both apples.[/color]

      Exactly they both are fruit. Access is not SQL server however they both
      provide the developer database facilities, although there is maybe as much
      difference in that as in a banana and an apple.

      However that does not stop by that, using the Jet facilities you can use as
      well an Excell spreadsheet as a database.

      I think that you did describe it with this very well.

      Cor


      Comment

      • Scott M.

        #63
        Re: Access vs SQL

        Way to change the topic into something it's not Cor!

        My question wasn't "are they both fruit", my question was "are they both
        apples". I'm a human and so are you, but we are not both the SAME human.
        You've taken something I've written out of context and gone on to write
        about something very different from what I'm talking about (again, as
        usual).


        "Cor Ligthert" <notmyfirstname @planet.nl> wrote in message
        news:%23Ujm2ydQ FHA.3404@TK2MSF TNGP12.phx.gbl. ..[color=blue]
        > Scott,
        >[color=green]
        >> An apple can be bitten into and so can a bananna, but that doesn't make
        >> them both apples.[/color]
        >
        > Exactly they both are fruit. Access is not SQL server however they both
        > provide the developer database facilities, although there is maybe as much
        > difference in that as in a banana and an apple.
        >
        > However that does not stop by that, using the Jet facilities you can use
        > as well an Excell spreadsheet as a database.
        >
        > I think that you did describe it with this very well.
        >
        > Cor
        >
        >[/color]


        Comment

        • Cor Ligthert

          #64
          Re: Access vs SQL

          Scott,

          Somebody acting in this business would never ask if "true" can be the same
          as "false". However, it are both conditions that can exist.

          When you ask if an apple is not a banana (I assume that is what you mean
          with what you wrote as bananna, because I don't know that word in English),
          I answered you that they are both fruit.

          However better than answering you directly on the question if Access is a
          database, I can show you this link.



          Cor


          Comment

          • Scott M.

            #65
            Re: Access vs SQL

            And, again you are answering questions that were never asked.

            I'm sorry Cor, I have no more time to waste on you.

            "Cor Ligthert" <notmyfirstname @planet.nl> wrote in message
            news:eF9cALeQFH A.248@TK2MSFTNG P15.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
            > Scott,
            >
            > Somebody acting in this business would never ask if "true" can be the same
            > as "false". However, it are both conditions that can exist.
            >
            > When you ask if an apple is not a banana (I assume that is what you mean
            > with what you wrote as bananna, because I don't know that word in
            > English), I answered you that they are both fruit.
            >
            > However better than answering you directly on the question if Access is a
            > database, I can show you this link.
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database
            >
            > Cor
            >[/color]


            Comment

            • Paul Clement

              #66
              Re: Access vs SQL

              On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:45:01 -0400, "Scott M." <s-mar@nospam.nosp am> wrote:

              ¤ > ¤ No actually here is what aatcbbtccctc@ya hoo.com said:
              ¤ > ¤
              ¤ > ¤ "Access is *not* a database."
              ¤ > ¤
              ¤ > ¤ He didn't say that an .mdb is not an Access file. My comments here and
              ¤ > ¤ earlier have been part of the discussion..
              ¤ >
              ¤ > Yes he did:
              ¤ >
              ¤ >>>
              ¤ > I suspect your mistake is in believing that an MDB file is an *Access*
              ¤ > file. It is not - it is a *Jet* file, in which Access is able to store
              ¤ > its own things (in addition to the standard Jet things).
              ¤ > <<
              ¤
              ¤ My comments have all pertained to the "Access is *not* a database" remark.
              ¤

              Mine didn't. Access is an application that operates upon Access databases. An .mdb file is a
              legitimate native file type that is specific to this the program.

              ¤ > For the last time...Access can operate on the database file directly. It
              ¤ > is not a wrapper.
              ¤
              ¤ Well, for the last time, yes Access does wrap the JET data and provides a UI
              ¤ to that JET data. Microsoft say so much in the article I've provided.
              ¤

              It's not a wrapper. It makes calls to a database engine API in order to perform certain database
              operations to support functionality supported by the application. It also makes calls directly to
              the database - there is no wrapping involved.

              DAO is a wrapper which exposes Jet functionality. Access is not.

              ¤ >Does Word wrap a .doc file? Does Excel wrap an .xls file?
              ¤
              ¤ Your comments keep coming back to does the product wrap it's own file
              ¤ extension format file. I have not framed my comments in this way, so I
              ¤ don't believe we are discussing the same thing. As I've said over and over:
              ¤ Access's .mdb file format contains a JET database as well as Access specific
              ¤ items. In this way, Access wraps the JET database. This is the reason you
              ¤ can programmaticall y connect to an .mdb file and use the JET database
              ¤ contained within it with standard JET DAO's.
              ¤

              Nope. Access can use DAO, but it also has integrated database functionality. It has to in order to
              support certain features such as executing VBA code routines used in SQL or Access QueryDefs. Jet
              does not support this feature.

              ¤ > As I questioned in my other post, do we now call .doc and .xls OLE
              ¤ > Structure Storage files instead
              ¤ > of Word and Excel files because that is the API which is employed?
              ¤
              ¤ I don't know. Do we? My point has been all along, that most of the time
              ¤ (99.9%), you can call it whatever you like. But when splitting hairs, you
              ¤ should call it what it is. Now, is OLE a data storage paradigm? No, it is
              ¤ a broad term regarding a set of interfaces that some object needs to provide
              ¤ to be OLE compliant. An apple can be bitten into and so can a bananna, but
              ¤ that doesn't make them both apples.
              ¤

              No, it is an API and data storage mechanism just as Jet is.

              ¤ > You may want to consider other sources beyond that article. Especially if
              ¤ > you're simply going to
              ¤ > ignore the fact that the Jet Database Engine provides only a subset of the
              ¤ > functionality that is
              ¤ > supported for an Access database. That is a technical fact that cannot be
              ¤ > disputed.
              ¤
              ¤ You're absolutely correct and it has been my point all along! I haven't
              ¤ been ignoring this, it's been what I've been saying. An Access file
              ¤ contains a JET database as well as other Access-specific items and wraps it
              ¤ all up into an .mdb. The article is Microsoft's documentation on JET. What
              ¤ better article is there to discuss JET?
              ¤

              Access neither wraps nor contains a database.


              Paul
              ~~~~
              Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)

              Comment

              • Scott M.

                #67
                Re: Access vs SQL

                [color=blue]
                > It's not a wrapper. It makes calls to a database engine API in order to
                > perform certain database
                > operations to support functionality supported by the application. It also
                > makes calls directly to
                > the database - there is no wrapping involved.[/color]

                Well, I guess we've finally come to it. JET is not an API. JET is the
                database type. If you would just READ the Microsoft documentation on JET we
                wouldn't be going round and round on this.
                [color=blue]
                > DAO is a wrapper which exposes Jet functionality. Access is not.[/color]

                No, once again you have it backwards. DAO is an API, Access is a wrapper of
                JET.
                [color=blue]
                > No, it is an API and data storage mechanism just as Jet is.[/color]

                So, now you admit that JET is a data storage mechanism...you mean like ....
                a DATABASE?
                [color=blue]
                > Access neither wraps nor contains a database.[/color]

                And now you are saying that Access doesn't even contain a database? Hmmm.

                Hey, good luck to you. This sub-thread was always a matter of splitting
                hairs and I don't have too many left to split. I can't help if you won't
                even read the specs.


                Comment

                • Paul Clement

                  #68
                  Re: Access vs SQL

                  On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:43:06 -0400, "Scott M." <s-mar@nospam.nosp am> wrote:

                  ¤
                  ¤ > It's not a wrapper. It makes calls to a database engine API in order to
                  ¤ > perform certain database
                  ¤ > operations to support functionality supported by the application. It also
                  ¤ > makes calls directly to
                  ¤ > the database - there is no wrapping involved.
                  ¤
                  ¤ Well, I guess we've finally come to it. JET is not an API. JET is the
                  ¤ database type. If you would just READ the Microsoft documentation on JET we
                  ¤ wouldn't be going round and round on this.
                  ¤

                  Yes, Jet is an API. Microsoft does not publicly disclose

                  ¤ > DAO is a wrapper which exposes Jet functionality. Access is not.
                  ¤
                  ¤ No, once again you have it backwards. DAO is an API, Access is a wrapper of
                  ¤ JET.
                  ¤
                  ¤ > No, it is an API and data storage mechanism just as Jet is.
                  ¤
                  ¤ So, now you admit that JET is a data storage mechanism...you mean like ....
                  ¤ a DATABASE?
                  ¤
                  ¤ > Access neither wraps nor contains a database.
                  ¤
                  ¤ And now you are saying that Access doesn't even contain a database? Hmmm.
                  ¤
                  ¤ Hey, good luck to you. This sub-thread was always a matter of splitting
                  ¤ hairs and I don't have too many left to split. I can't help if you won't
                  ¤ even read the specs.
                  ¤

                  Paul
                  ~~~~
                  Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)

                  Comment

                  • Paul Clement

                    #69
                    Re: Access vs SQL

                    On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:43:06 -0400, "Scott M." <s-mar@nospam.nosp am> wrote:

                    ¤
                    ¤ > It's not a wrapper. It makes calls to a database engine API in order to
                    ¤ > perform certain database
                    ¤ > operations to support functionality supported by the application. It also
                    ¤ > makes calls directly to
                    ¤ > the database - there is no wrapping involved.
                    ¤
                    ¤ Well, I guess we've finally come to it. JET is not an API. JET is the
                    ¤ database type. If you would just READ the Microsoft documentation on JET we
                    ¤ wouldn't be going round and round on this.
                    ¤

                    Don't believe everything you read and don't read into everything you believe.

                    Jet *is* an API that is not publicly disclosed by Microsoft.

                    ¤ > DAO is a wrapper which exposes Jet functionality. Access is not.
                    ¤
                    ¤ No, once again you have it backwards. DAO is an API, Access is a wrapper of
                    ¤ JET.
                    ¤

                    DAO is also an API - it's a COM based API.

                    ¤ > No, it is an API and data storage mechanism just as Jet is.
                    ¤
                    ¤ So, now you admit that JET is a data storage mechanism...you mean like ....
                    ¤ a DATABASE?
                    ¤
                    ¤ > Access neither wraps nor contains a database.
                    ¤
                    ¤ And now you are saying that Access doesn't even contain a database? Hmmm.
                    ¤

                    Right. There is no containing. It's file I/O between the application and the
                    database.

                    ¤ Hey, good luck to you. This sub-thread was always a matter of splitting
                    ¤ hairs and I don't have too many left to split. I can't help if you won't
                    ¤ even read the specs.
                    ¤

                    I appreciate your concern and thanks for sharing your knowledge Scott. But I've
                    worked with Access for over a decade now and I'm fairly confident that those I
                    talk to at Microsoft know their product. ;-)


                    Paul
                    ~~~~
                    Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)

                    Comment

                    • Cor Ligthert

                      #70
                      Re: Access vs SQL

                      Scott,
                      [color=blue][color=green]
                      >> However better than answering you directly on the question if Access is a
                      >> database, I can show you this link.
                      >>
                      >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database[/color][/color]
                      [color=blue]
                      > And, again you are answering questions that were never asked.
                      >
                      > I'm sorry Cor, I have no more time to waste on you.
                      >[/color]

                      I know that you think that you are a superior person. You have often showed
                      that in these newsgroups. However, I wished that the content of your answers
                      are superior and not exist consequently from telling that somebody write not
                      good English or statements as above when somebody proofs you'r wrong.

                      About that English by the way, you write yourself sentences like beneath.
                      Maybe is it better that you first start learning to write good English
                      before you do those statements.
                      [color=blue]
                      >Your comments keep coming back to does the product wrap it's own file.[/color]


                      The way of your superiority style comes back in a sentence on Wikipidi, that
                      I showed you in my last message what is completely on topic of this thread.
                      However, probably not even opened by you.



                      From Wikipidi

                      (The terms database and database management system are sometimes
                      interchanged by students. In the professional argot, a database is always
                      the collection of facts, not the software program.)

                      Cor


                      Comment

                      • Cor Ligthert

                        #71
                        Re: Access vs SQL

                        Scott,

                        In my opinion is your problem that you have to short knowledge and start
                        writing.

                        For 90% of the Dutch speaking people (from the Netherlands, Belgium and
                        Suriname) (those 10% are the elder ones)speaks as well English. It is in the
                        Netherlands a second natural language (I write this not for Belgium and
                        Suriname because in those countries are official second natural languages,
                        however there it is probably the same). Most children in the Netherlands can
                        understand, speak, and read English when they are about 12.

                        As I once heard on BBC (That is the British Broad Casting Organization)
                        where is spoken in my opinion real good English, telling that the Dutch
                        English an English Dialect.

                        However, most of us do normally seldom write in English, so that goes mostly
                        with a lot of errors especially when we start or start again with it.

                        Maybe strange for you, however read next time something before you start
                        writing.

                        Cor


                        Comment

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