MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

[Robert Kern]

Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

Alex Martelli wrote:
[color=blue]
> Jocular, but not sarcastic. I have no problems using mingw if that's
> what it takes -- the later instructions I saw were those suggesting the
> Toolkit instead, so those are the ones I'm trying to follow. What's the
> updated URL for the instructions about using mingw instead?[/color]

Oh, that's right, you need an import library for Python24.dll . If you build
numpy first, it will automatically build the import library for you. The
implementation is fairly simple if you would rather bodge a script together. The
driver is the function build_import_li brary() here:

http://svn.scipy.org/svn/numpy/trunk/numpy/distutils/mingw32ccompiler.py

This uses the following module:

http://svn.scipy.org/svn/numpy/trunk/numpy/distutils/lib2def.py

--
Robert Kern
robert.kern@gma il.com

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
an underlying truth."
-- Umberto Eco

[Ron Adam]

Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

Alex Martelli wrote:[color=blue]
> "Martin v. Löwis" <martin@v.loewi s.de> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Alex Martelli wrote:[color=darkred]
>>> As suggested to me by David Rushby 10 hours ago,
>>>
>>> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...72BE09D-40BB-4
>>> 9FD-9CB0-4BFA122FA91B&di splaylang=en
>>>
>>> does work.[/color]
>> Can you please try this again: I'm also getting the error message
>> that AIM is getting.[/color]
>
> Try tinyurl http://tinyurl.com/gv8wr please.[/color]


I still get the following with the tinyurl link:

~~~
The download you requested is unavailable. If you continue to see this
message when trying to access this download, go to the "Search for a
Download" area on the Download Center home page.
~~~


Pasting the above tinyurl into firefox results in the following link.

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en

Which appears to still be truncated. :-/


[color=blue]
> I've also tinyurl'd your URL for the 1.1 SDK, to
> http://tinyurl.com/5flob .[/color]

This one works.
[color=blue]
> ((I suspect the problem has to do with a limitation of 80
> characters/line in NNTP messages, which my favorite newsreader enforces
> unconditionally )).
>
> Alex[/color]

[Martin v. Löwis]

Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

Robert Kern wrote:[color=blue]
> Oh, that's right, you need an import library for Python24.dll .[/color]

That shouldn't be a problem: that library is included with Python.

Regards,
Martin

[Robert Kern]

Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

Martin v. Löwis wrote:[color=blue]
> Robert Kern wrote:
>[color=green]
>>Oh, that's right, you need an import library for Python24.dll .[/color]
>
> That shouldn't be a problem: that library is included with Python.[/color]

For mingw, too? I.e. a .a not a .lib?

--
Robert Kern
robert.kern@gma il.com

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
an underlying truth."
-- Umberto Eco

[Alex Martelli]

Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

Ron Adam <rrr@ronadam.co m> wrote:
...[color=blue]
> I still get the following with the tinyurl link:
>
> ~~~
> The download you requested is unavailable. If you continue to see this
> message when trying to access this download, go to the "Search for a
> Download" area on the Download Center home page.
> ~~~
>
>
> Pasting the above tinyurl into firefox results in the following link.
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...BE09D-40BB-4&d
> isplaylang=en
>
> Which appears to still be truncated. :-/[/color]

True, but here's the kicker: using the full URL, which I just dblchecked
from Rushby's original message as being (enclosing in <...>)...:

<http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...272BE09D-40BB-
49FD-9CB0-4BFA122FA91B&di splaylang=en>

NOW gives me the same error page too. When Rushby suggested it
yesterday I immediately used it, and it allowed me to download the
Toolkit 2003 just fine -- so, I guess Microsoft must have killed that
possibility shortly thereafter (who said they can't move fast?-).

As of now, I don't know any more of a URL that's usable to download
this, therefore:-(


Alex

[Andrew Trevorrow]

Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

Ron Adam wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
> > Try tinyurl http://tinyurl.com/gv8wr please.[/color]
>
> I still get the following with the tinyurl link:
>
> ~~~
> The download you requested is unavailable. If you continue to see this
> message when trying to access this download, go to the "Search for a
> Download" area on the Download Center home page.
> ~~~[/color]

Ditto for me. And like Ron, the URL (tiny or long) to the 1.1 SDK
*does* work.

This is really frustrating. I've tried different browsers (Safari and IE
on my Mac, IE on WinXP). I've tried emptying the browser cache.

I'm in Australia, so maybe it depends on where the request is coming from?
Any clues on this would be much appreciated.

Or maybe someone is willing to make their VCToolkitSetup. exe available
temporarily...

Andrew

[Alex Martelli]

Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

Edward Elliott <nobody@127.0.0 .1> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Alex Martelli wrote:[color=green]
> > the Windows version, despite the slight
> > overhead of running under Parallels' virtualization, is an impressive
> > 12%+ _faster_ than the "native" MacOSX Python 2.4.3 (I'm not quite sure
> > about how good Parallels' virtualization IS, but even if it's as
> > impressive as a mere 3% overhead, this still means that the Windows
> > version of Python on identical HW must be at least 15% faster than the
> > MacOSX version, compiled with gcc).[/color]
>
> Can you post the complete benchmark results from both systems on the
> Macbook? My understanding is that virtualization overhead is not a[/color]

OK, I've placed on http://www.aleax.it/Python/ the files that pybench
writes (with the -file option) for each machines, the names are
onmbp.txt and onwin2k.txt -- just 20k each (I'm not sure their format is
documented, but I guess that, worst case, one just needs to study
pybench's sources).
[color=blue]
> builder knew about, etc. I think Apple switched to the Intel compiler for
> x86 macs, was python built with that or with gcc?[/color]

The compiler Apple distributes freely is still gcc -- the intel compiler
(rumored to have better optimization) costs hundreds of dollars, so
Apple couldn't possibly distribute it for free with XCode.
[color=blue]
> In short, your results are interesting but I'm not sure what to make of
> them yet.[/color]

Consider me available if you need some other tests and don't have other
easy access to OSX and Windows running on the same HW.


Alex

[Alex Martelli]

Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

Andrew Trevorrow <andrew@trevorr ow.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Ron Adam wrote:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > Try tinyurl http://tinyurl.com/gv8wr please.[/color]
> >
> > I still get the following with the tinyurl link:
> >
> > ~~~
> > The download you requested is unavailable. If you continue to see this
> > message when trying to access this download, go to the "Search for a
> > Download" area on the Download Center home page.
> > ~~~[/color]
>
> Ditto for me. And like Ron, the URL (tiny or long) to the 1.1 SDK
> *does* work.
>
> This is really frustrating. I've tried different browsers (Safari and IE
> on my Mac, IE on WinXP). I've tried emptying the browser cache.
>
> I'm in Australia, so maybe it depends on where the request is coming from?
> Any clues on this would be much appreciated.[/color]

Nope: it's stopped working for me, too.

[color=blue]
> Or maybe someone is willing to make their VCToolkitSetup. exe available
> temporarily...[/color]

I suggest any such offers be made privately, since I'm pretty sure
they'd be illegal (at least in the US, dunno 'bout Oz law).


Alex

[Andrew Trevorrow]

Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

aleaxit@yahoo.c om (Alex Martelli) wrote:
[color=blue]
> Andrew Trevorrow <andrew@trevorr ow.com> wrote:[color=green]
> > Or maybe someone is willing to make their VCToolkitSetup. exe available
> > temporarily...[/color]
>
> I suggest any such offers be made privately, since I'm pretty sure
> they'd be illegal (at least in the US, dunno 'bout Oz law).[/color]

Oh, absolutely -- private offers only please. If it helps ease the
conscience af any prospective benefactors, I *did* have a copy of
VCToolkitSetup. exe at one point. I downloaded it about a year ago
and installed it on Win2000 under Virtual PC, but later trashed
it without making a backup, so that'll teach me.

Failing any offers of help, I guess my options are:

- Wait for Parallels to allow importing VPC disk images (I asked
them about this but it's not going to happen soon).

- Extract all the VC++ 2003 stuff from my VPC Win2000 system and
copy it over to my Parallels system. Sounds like fun...

- Look on ebay for a cheap copy of Visual Studio with VC++ 2003.

- Download VC++ 2005 Express. I'm not planning to build extensions
so I guess I don't really have to use VC++ 2003.

Andrew

[Martin v. Löwis]

Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

Robert Kern wrote:[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>> Oh, that's right, you need an import library for Python24.dll .[/color]
>> That shouldn't be a problem: that library is included with Python.[/color]
>
> For mingw, too? I.e. a .a not a .lib?[/color]

Right.

Martin

[Robert Kern]

Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

Martin v. Löwis wrote:[color=blue]
> Robert Kern wrote:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>>Oh, that's right, you need an import library for Python24.dll .
>>>
>>>That shouldn't be a problem: that library is included with Python.[/color]
>>
>>For mingw, too? I.e. a .a not a .lib?[/color]
>
> Right.[/color]

Woohoo!

--
Robert Kern
robert.kern@gma il.com

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
an underlying truth."
-- Umberto Eco

[Fredrik Lundh]

Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

Robert Kern wrote:
[color=blue]
> Martin v. Löwis wrote:[color=green]
> > Robert Kern wrote:
> >[color=darkred]
> >>Oh, that's right, you need an import library for Python24.dll .[/color]
> >
> > That shouldn't be a problem: that library is included with Python.[/color]
>
> For mingw, too? I.e. a .a not a .lib?[/color]

last time I tinkered with mingw, it could link directly against the DLL
file. see the last two minutes in "mingw from scratch in 20 minutes"
post:

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.general/388046

the MinGW FAQ says that you can use reimp in cases like this:

http://www.mingw.org/mingwfaq.shtml#faq-msvcdll

but that didn't seem to be necessary (I assume reimp or something
is now integrated in mingw, or maybe I have a magic computer...)

however, note that the FAQ entry says that you can use an existing
LIB file as well, so Python's standard import library should work.

</F>

[Ron Adam]

Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

Alex Martelli wrote:[color=blue]
> Ron Adam <rrr@ronadam.co m> wrote:
> ...[color=green]
>> I still get the following with the tinyurl link:
>>
>> ~~~
>> The download you requested is unavailable. If you continue to see this
>> message when trying to access this download, go to the "Search for a
>> Download" area on the Download Center home page.
>> ~~~
>>
>>
>> Pasting the above tinyurl into firefox results in the following link.
>>
>> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...BE09D-40BB-4&d
>> isplaylang=en
>>
>> Which appears to still be truncated. :-/[/color]
>
> True, but here's the kicker: using the full URL, which I just dblchecked
> from Rushby's original message as being (enclosing in <...>)...:[/color]

Yes, I tried the full url also, but was hoping I did something wrong.
Sigh... guess not.
[color=blue]
> <http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...272BE09D-40BB-
> 49FD-9CB0-4BFA122FA91B&di splaylang=en>
>
> NOW gives me the same error page too. When Rushby suggested it
> yesterday I immediately used it, and it allowed me to download the
> Toolkit 2003 just fine -- so, I guess Microsoft must have killed that
> possibility shortly thereafter (who said they can't move fast?-).
>
> As of now, I don't know any more of a URL that's usable to download
> this, therefore:-([/color]

And with a new version of windows due at the end of this year, it's
likely those who upgrade to Vista, will also need to upgrade to visual
studio 2005 or later.

I've seen this pattern before. :-/

Ron

[Edward Elliott]

Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

Alex Martelli wrote:[color=blue]
> OK, I've placed on http://www.aleax.it/Python/ the files that pybench
> writes (with the -file option) for each machines, the names are
> onmbp.txt and onwin2k.txt -- just 20k each (I'm not sure their format is
> documented, but I guess that, worst case, one just needs to study
> pybench's sources).[/color]

Nice, thank you. The files just contain pickled data, but you need pybench
installed to unpickle the classes. I used the command
pybench -s win2k.txt -c osx.txt
to compare the data sets. Here are the results. Left two columns are
Windows times, right column is change from OS X time. I resorted the tests
by percentage change (win2k slowest->fastest) to provide a better picture
of what's going on:

PYBENCH 1.0
Benchmark: /home/ed/python-w2k.txt (rounds=10, warp=20)
measured against: /home/ed/python-osx.txt (rounds=10, warp=20)
Tests: per run per oper. diff
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(slower on win2k)
StringMappings: 309.33 ms 2.46 us +112.53%
ConcatUnicode: 157.47 ms 1.05 us +77.43%
ConcatStrings: 103.57 ms 0.69 us +44.86%
DictWithFloatKe ys: 169.10 ms 0.28 us +21.52%
UnicodeProperti es: 86.00 ms 0.43 us +6.69%
PythonFunctionC alls: 85.83 ms 0.52 us +1.22%
UnicodeSlicing: 85.64 ms 0.49 us +0.16%
(faster on win2k)
IfThenElse: 70.38 ms 0.10 us -2.45%
SmallLists: 76.98 ms 0.30 us -4.44%
CompareUnicode: 85.22 ms 0.23 us -4.72%
StringPredicate s: 87.25 ms 0.31 us -6.13%
NestedForLoops: 38.47 ms 0.11 us -8.07%
CompareInterned Strings: 59.12 ms 0.12 us -8.12%
SimpleListManip ulation: 41.93 ms 0.16 us -8.55%
CreateStringsWi thConcat: 35.02 ms 0.18 us -9.16%
TryRaiseExcept: 49.62 ms 3.31 us -9.53%
StringSlicing: 63.61 ms 0.36 us -9.77%
SmallTuples: 68.65 ms 0.29 us -12.77%
CompareFloatsIn tegers: 72.31 ms 0.16 us -13.72%
Recursion: 45.88 ms 3.67 us -16.20%
CompareFloats: 51.26 ms 0.11 us -17.05%
CompareStrings: 76.14 ms 0.15 us -17.51%
PythonMethodCal ls: 60.74 ms 0.81 us -17.75%
CreateUnicodeWi thConcat: 90.22 ms 0.45 us -17.76%
BuiltinFunction Calls: 39.38 ms 0.31 us -17.79%
SimpleFloatArit hmetic: 57.72 ms 0.10 us -19.44%
SecondImport: 29.59 ms 1.18 us -19.71%
CreateInstances : 63.02 ms 1.50 us -21.08%
SimpleIntFloatA rithmetic: 55.92 ms 0.08 us -21.78%
SimpleComplexAr ithmetic: 42.40 ms 0.19 us -22.84%
BuiltinMethodLo okup: 78.26 ms 0.15 us -24.54%
UnicodePredicat es: 56.17 ms 0.25 us -24.75%
SpecialInstance Attribute: 117.49 ms 0.20 us -24.97%
DictWithStringK eys: 62.30 ms 0.10 us -26.18%
TupleSlicing: 73.63 ms 0.70 us -26.34%
NormalInstanceA ttribute: 65.19 ms 0.11 us -26.50%
UnicodeMappings : 65.20 ms 3.62 us -27.68%
SecondPackageIm port: 31.25 ms 1.25 us -28.74%
SpecialClassAtt ribute: 65.94 ms 0.11 us -30.30%
ListSlicing: 50.75 ms 14.50 us -31.37%
SecondSubmodule Import: 39.39 ms 1.58 us -31.98%
SimpleDictManip ulation: 37.88 ms 0.13 us -32.24%
NormalClassAttr ibute: 66.37 ms 0.11 us -33.40%
DictCreation: 36.66 ms 0.24 us -34.25%
DictWithInteger Keys: 54.73 ms 0.09 us -35.76%
SimpleLongArith metic: 27.03 ms 0.16 us -39.80%
TryExcept: 62.54 ms 0.04 us -42.17%
SimpleIntegerAr ithmetic: 42.88 ms 0.06 us -42.52%
CompareIntegers : 42.81 ms 0.05 us -45.54%
ForLoops: 25.72 ms 2.57 us -53.99%
CompareLongs: 25.45 ms 0.06 us -63.04%
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Average round time: 3847.99 ms -12.61%


None of these tests look to me like anything virtualization would affect.
Beyond that, I'm not sure what to make of it. The fastest gains on win2k
(>39%) seem to come from branching and arithmetic tests. Maybe the ms
compiler has significantly better branch prediction (might explain why
ForLoops and TryExcept have such large gains while NestedForLoops and
TryRaiseExcept are more modest). I can't postulate why some tests show[color=blue]
>20% gains, like the *Slicing and *InstanceAttrib utes ones. No idea why[/color]
the first group of tests came out faster on OS X.

I really don't have enough platform-specific knowledge to make sense of
what's going on. Maybe someone with more experience can comment? There
may just be too many factors at play to tease out causal relationships.

[color=blue]
> The compiler Apple distributes freely is still gcc -- the intel compiler
> (rumored to have better optimization) costs hundreds of dollars, so
> Apple couldn't possibly distribute it for free with XCode.[/color]

I know ICC is commercial and thus not in XCode, but I thought maybe Apple
was using ICC internally to compile some parts of OSX. I have no firm
basis for that belief, it's probably just a rumor I picked up somewhere.

[color=blue]
> Consider me available if you need some other tests and don't have other
> easy access to OSX and Windows running on the same HW.[/color]

Thanks.

[Martin v. Löwis]

Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

Fredrik Lundh wrote:[color=blue]
> however, note that the FAQ entry says that you can use an existing
> LIB file as well, so Python's standard import library should work.[/color]

Right. MingW (GNU ld) was (apparently) changed to support that shortly
after I started including libpython24.a files with the Windows
distributions.

Regards,
Martin