MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

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  • Alex Martelli

    #1

    MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

    So, I thought I'd tool up to let me build and test Python extensions on
    Windows (as well as Mac and Linux) -- I'm trying out Parallels
    Workstation beta on my new Macbook Pro (and so far it seems to work very
    well), I bought and installed a Win2000 Pro on it (since according to
    the grapevine it works better than XP in various kinds of virtual
    machines, and almost all SW supports w2k anyway -- I also found out that
    one exception is the Google Pack, which does require XP), did all the
    upgrades (why MS forces you to do 8+ rounds of download-install, from an
    off-the-CD win2k SP2 to a fully upgraded win2k SP4, rather than offering
    a single-round option, I just don't undersand!), got Python 2.4.3 --
    phew, so far so good.

    So, I go to <http://www.vrplumber.c om/programming/mstoolkit/> and start
    following the instructions, beginning with the download of Visual C++
    Toolkit 2003... oops! I can't find that download any more at
    <http://msdn.microsoft. com/visualc/vctoolkit2003/> -- instead, what's at
    that URL is a page explaining that
    """
    The Visual C++ Toolkit 2003 has been replaced by Visual C++ 2005 Express
    Edition.
    """

    Hmmm -- I can't build extensions for the standard build of Python 2.4.3
    with VC++ 2005, can I? Express or other, they just use separate and
    incompatible C-runtime libraries, I believe.

    So -- does anybody know if the 2003-level Toolkit is STILL available for
    download somewhere, or can suggest other (legal;-) ways in which I can
    build and test Python extensions (with an optimizing compiler --
    NON-optimizing ones are right out;-) w/o shelling out beeg moolah to MS?
    So far my total investment is about $100 ($40 for Parallels Workstation,
    which I preordered after briefly checking out the free-for-1-month beta,
    since it worked so well; $60 for the cheapest legal CD+license of w2k I
    could find around) -- and I'm not complaining, since the current setup
    will still let me TEST many diverse things on Windows; to gain the
    further ability of *compiling* Python extensions, I'm not averse to
    spending a little more if needed, but certainly not as much as another
    $100 (I do prefer free to cheap, but for example the $40 Parallels
    product is well worth the money, to me, compared to the free 'Q',
    because the latter, while fun to hack around with, was absorbing
    countless hours of my time in many attempts to get everything working,
    while Parallels essentially "just worked" and saved me LOTS of time).


    Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Just to show that I'm an
    oldstyle Usenet dynosaur: suggestions in private mail are also welcome
    (but my real mailbox these days is at gmail, not as yahoo as the 'From'
    header above says), and I will undertake to summarize and post any
    suggestions thus received (unless the suggestions' authors request me to
    not repost).


    Alex
  • David Rushby

    #2
    Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

    Alex Martelli wrote:[color=blue]
    > So -- does anybody know if the 2003-level Toolkit is STILL available for
    > download somewhere...[/color]

    http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en

    Comment

    • Alex Martelli

      #3
      Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

      David Rushby <DavidRushby@gm ail.com> wrote:
      [color=blue]
      > Alex Martelli wrote:[color=green]
      > > So -- does anybody know if the 2003-level Toolkit is STILL available for
      > > download somewhere...[/color]
      >
      >
      >http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...272BE09D-40BB-
      >49FD-9CB0-4BFA122FA91B&di splaylang=en
      >[/color]

      Great, thanks, just what I was looking for!!!


      Alex

      Comment

      • AIM

        #4
        Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

        The site comes back with a message saying ...

        "The download you requested is unavailable. If you continue to see this
        message when trying to access this download, go to the "Search for a
        Download" area on the Download Center home page."

        Does anyone have any other ideas of where to look?

        Comment

        • Alex Martelli

          #5
          Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

          AIM <Andre_Mikulec@ Hotmail.com> wrote:
          [color=blue]
          > The site comes back with a message saying ...
          >
          > "The download you requested is unavailable. If you continue to see this
          > message when trying to access this download, go to the "Search for a
          > Download" area on the Download Center home page."
          >
          > Does anyone have any other ideas of where to look?[/color]

          As suggested to me by David Rushby 10 hours ago,

          http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...72BE09D-40BB-4
          9FD-9CB0-4BFA122FA91B&di splaylang=en

          does work.

          But, there's another problem -- helloworld.c compiles fine, but linking
          doesn't find MSVCRT.LIB -- apparently, the 2.0 .NET Framework SDK does
          NOT include this file for x86 (there _are_ a couple of versions under
          a64 and some other parallel directory, but I doubt they're good to use
          with an x86!-). As the already-quoted crucial URL
          <http://www.vrplumber.c om/programming/mstoolkit/> mentions:

          """
          # .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1

          Provides the core msvcrt.lib for msvcr71.dll against which to link
          your extensions. This is critically important, as without it you are
          going to wind up linking against the wrong run-time and will see crashes
          whenever a core object such as a file is shared across run-time
          barriers.

          The 2.0 beta also works according to reports, and may be required
          to build Numpy 23.6 (whereas 23.1 seems to work without it).
          """

          Whether the 2.0 beta also worked, the current definitive 2.0 seems NOT
          to work.

          Can anybody suggest where to get a Framework SDK 1.1., or any other
          legal way to get "the core msvcrt.lib for msvcr71.dll against which to
          link your extensions. This is critically important"...?? ?


          And, as an aside...:

          It's sure an interesting reflection, that impecunious or thrifty
          developers (ones not willing to shell out mucho $$$ to MS for a pro VS
          2003) must go through such gyrations as these in order to be able to
          build Python extensions on Windows. I'm sure my Windows-loving
          colleagues in the PSF (who got several free copies of VS 2003 from
          Microsoft, I believe -- at the time, I had zero Windows installations
          and zero interest in Windows, so I didn't sign up for one) have fully
          considered this recurring drama, and come to the decision of sticking
          with VS 2003 (avoiding any free-as-in-beer compilers such as VS 2005 or
          mingw) with thorough and wise deliberation.

          The optimizer in the C compiler used to build Python in Windows *IS*
          impressive: just today, I ran (and posted to it.comp.macinto sh) pybench
          on Python 2.4.3 on iBook G4 12", Macbook Pro 2.0 GHz, and Parallels
          Workstation VM with Win2000 on the same Macbook -- while the Macbook is
          4 times as fast as the iBook, the Windows version, despite the slight
          overhead of running under Parallels' virtualization, is an impressive
          12%+ _faster_ than the "native" MacOSX Python 2.4.3 (I'm not quite sure
          about how good Parallels' virtualization IS, but even if it's as
          impressive as a mere 3% overhead, this still means that the Windows
          version of Python on identical HW must be at least 15% faster than the
          MacOSX version, compiled with gcc).

          I can see the stance that such a speedup warrants using Microsoft's
          costly VS 2003 and imposing endless gyrations on developers trying to
          get it on the cheap -- being one of the latter developers, I'm inclined
          nevertheless to grumble, right now, of course;-)...


          Alex

          Comment

          • Edward Elliott

            #6
            Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

            Alex Martelli wrote:[color=blue]
            > the Windows version, despite the slight
            > overhead of running under Parallels' virtualization, is an impressive
            > 12%+ _faster_ than the "native" MacOSX Python 2.4.3 (I'm not quite sure
            > about how good Parallels' virtualization IS, but even if it's as
            > impressive as a mere 3% overhead, this still means that the Windows
            > version of Python on identical HW must be at least 15% faster than the
            > MacOSX version, compiled with gcc).[/color]

            Can you post the complete benchmark results from both systems on the
            Macbook? My understanding is that virtualization overhead is not a
            constant factor like 3%. Unprivileged instructions run unmodified; only
            privileged instructions like hardware accesses get trapped, adding
            overhead. Any percentage figure advertised by the manufacturer is most
            likely an average over some data set with both types of instructions.

            The types of tests mentioned on the pybench site -- function calls,
            lookups, exceptions, etc -- shouldn't incur any overhead from
            virtualization. It would be helpful to see exactly which tests were faster
            and by how much instead of an overall average result.

            The differences may be due to factors other than compiler optimizations.
            I've heard for instance the OS X virtual memory manager is not particularly
            speedy for large data sets. That could give the windows pybench a win on
            certain tests regardless of which compiler has better optimizations.

            Then you've got issues of whether the compilers are really competing on
            equal footing. Were similar options enabled for each build, does each
            build represent the best possible optimizations or only the ones the
            builder knew about, etc. I think Apple switched to the Intel compiler for
            x86 macs, was python built with that or with gcc?

            In short, your results are interesting but I'm not sure what to make of
            them yet.

            Comment

            • Robert Kern

              #7
              Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

              Edward Elliott wrote:[color=blue]
              > I think Apple switched to the Intel compiler for
              > x86 macs, was python built with that or with gcc?[/color]

              I'm pretty sure MacTel OS X still uses gcc 4 (although I think there is a beta
              version of the Intel compiler available). All of the Python builds floating
              around for it certainly use gcc.

              --
              Robert Kern
              robert.kern@gma il.com

              "I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
              that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
              an underlying truth."
              -- Umberto Eco

              Comment

              • Martin v. Löwis

                #8
                Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

                Alex Martelli wrote:[color=blue]
                > Can anybody suggest where to get a Framework SDK 1.1., or any other
                > legal way to get "the core msvcrt.lib for msvcr71.dll against which to
                > link your extensions. This is critically important"...?? ?[/color]

                From

                http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en
                [color=blue]
                > I'm sure my Windows-loving
                > colleagues in the PSF (who got several free copies of VS 2003 from
                > Microsoft, I believe -- at the time, I had zero Windows installations
                > and zero interest in Windows, so I didn't sign up for one) have fully
                > considered this recurring drama, and come to the decision of sticking
                > with VS 2003 (avoiding any free-as-in-beer compilers such as VS 2005 or
                > mingw) with thorough and wise deliberation.[/color]

                Not sure whether this mark was meant to be sarcastic: but why you don't
                want to use mingw to build extensions on Windows, I cannot understand.

                Regards,
                Martin

                Comment

                • Martin v. Löwis

                  #9
                  Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

                  Alex Martelli wrote:[color=blue]
                  > As suggested to me by David Rushby 10 hours ago,
                  >
                  > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...72BE09D-40BB-4
                  > 9FD-9CB0-4BFA122FA91B&di splaylang=en
                  >
                  > does work.[/color]

                  Can you please try this again: I'm also getting the error message
                  that AIM is getting.

                  Regards,
                  Martin

                  Comment

                  • JW

                    #10
                    Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

                    On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 21:15:23 -0700, Alex Martelli wrote:
                    [color=blue]
                    > As suggested to me by David Rushby 10 hours ago,
                    >
                    > ... < huge URL snipped > ...[/color]

                    Alas, somehow this URL was split in two, and all the kings horses and all
                    the kings men can't seem to put it back together again (at least in my
                    browser). Could someone post a tinyurl?
                    [color=blue]
                    > And, as an aside...:
                    >
                    > [Those] not willing to shell out mucho $$$ to MS for a pro VS
                    > 2003) must go through such gyrations as these in order to be able to
                    > build Python extensions on Windows. I'm sure my Windows-loving
                    > colleagues in the PSF (who got several free copies of VS 2003 from
                    > Microsoft, I believe -- at the time, I had zero Windows installations
                    > and zero interest in Windows, so I didn't sign up for one) have fully
                    > considered this recurring drama, and come to the decision of sticking
                    > with VS 2003 (avoiding any free-as-in-beer compilers such as VS 2005 or
                    > mingw) with thorough and wise deliberation.[/color]

                    Well, so long as there's a way to get the requisite tools. I'm sure
                    these Windows-loving colleagues confirmed these "free" tools worked under
                    WINE, else how would us cheap programmers with Windows-less boxes avoid
                    sending $$$ to the Great Satan?

                    Jim Wilson
                    Gainesville, FL

                    Comment

                    • Alex Martelli

                      #11
                      Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

                      JW <wilson1442@bel lsouth.net> wrote:
                      ...[color=blue][color=green]
                      > > As suggested to me by David Rushby 10 hours ago,
                      > >
                      > > ... < huge URL snipped > ...[/color]
                      >
                      > Alas, somehow this URL was split in two, and all the kings horses and all
                      > the kings men can't seem to put it back together again (at least in my
                      > browser). Could someone post a tinyurl?[/color]

                      http://tinyurl.com/gv8wr


                      Alex

                      Comment

                      • Alex Martelli

                        #12
                        Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

                        "Martin v. Löwis" <martin@v.loewi s.de> wrote:
                        [color=blue]
                        > Alex Martelli wrote:[color=green]
                        > > Can anybody suggest where to get a Framework SDK 1.1., or any other
                        > > legal way to get "the core msvcrt.lib for msvcr71.dll against which to
                        > > link your extensions. This is critically important"...?? ?[/color]
                        >
                        > From
                        >
                        >
                        >http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...9b3a2ca6-3647-
                        >4070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&di splaylang=en
                        >[/color]

                        Thanks! For the convenience of tinyurl-preferrers:

                        http://tinyurl.com/5flob

                        [color=blue][color=green]
                        > > I'm sure my Windows-loving
                        > > colleagues in the PSF (who got several free copies of VS 2003 from
                        > > Microsoft, I believe -- at the time, I had zero Windows installations
                        > > and zero interest in Windows, so I didn't sign up for one) have fully
                        > > considered this recurring drama, and come to the decision of sticking
                        > > with VS 2003 (avoiding any free-as-in-beer compilers such as VS 2005 or
                        > > mingw) with thorough and wise deliberation.[/color]
                        >
                        > Not sure whether this mark was meant to be sarcastic: but why you don't
                        > want to use mingw to build extensions on Windows, I cannot understand.[/color]

                        Jocular, but not sarcastic. I have no problems using mingw if that's
                        what it takes -- the later instructions I saw were those suggesting the
                        Toolkit instead, so those are the ones I'm trying to follow. What's the
                        updated URL for the instructions about using mingw instead?


                        Thanks,

                        Alex

                        Comment

                        • Alex Martelli

                          #13
                          Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

                          "Martin v. Löwis" <martin@v.loewi s.de> wrote:
                          [color=blue]
                          > Alex Martelli wrote:[color=green]
                          > > As suggested to me by David Rushby 10 hours ago,
                          > >
                          > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...72BE09D-40BB-4
                          > > 9FD-9CB0-4BFA122FA91B&di splaylang=en
                          > >
                          > > does work.[/color]
                          >
                          > Can you please try this again: I'm also getting the error message
                          > that AIM is getting.[/color]

                          Try tinyurl http://tinyurl.com/gv8wr please.

                          I've also tinyurl'd your URL for the 1.1 SDK, to
                          http://tinyurl.com/5flob .

                          ((I suspect the problem has to do with a limitation of 80
                          characters/line in NNTP messages, which my favorite newsreader enforces
                          unconditionally )).


                          Alex

                          Comment

                          • Alex Martelli

                            #14
                            Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

                            Robert Kern <robert.kern@gm ail.com> wrote:
                            [color=blue]
                            > Edward Elliott wrote:[color=green]
                            > > I think Apple switched to the Intel compiler for
                            > > x86 macs, was python built with that or with gcc?[/color]
                            >
                            > I'm pretty sure MacTel OS X still uses gcc 4 (although I think there is a beta
                            > version of the Intel compiler available). All of the Python builds floating
                            > around for it certainly use gcc.[/color]

                            Apple's XCode still uses gcc. The intel compilers are out of beta, and
                            cost many hundreds of dollars per developer, besides NOT supporting
                            ObjectiveC, while XCode is still free (as in beer for the GUI parts etc,
                            as in speech for the underlying commandline tools, though I'm not quite
                            sure where I'd start looking for the latters' sources if I wanted
                            them;-).

                            Edward's request on this thread is eminently reasonable, but I don't
                            really have time to get and post all the detailed results of pybench
                            right now - I'll try to get to it this evening.


                            Alex

                            Comment

                            • Robert Kern

                              #15
                              Re: MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

                              Alex Martelli wrote:
                              [color=blue]
                              > Jocular, but not sarcastic. I have no problems using mingw if that's
                              > what it takes -- the later instructions I saw were those suggesting the
                              > Toolkit instead, so those are the ones I'm trying to follow. What's the
                              > updated URL for the instructions about using mingw instead?[/color]

                              Install mingw (an large task in and of itself that I'm not going to go into
                              here, but look at http://www.mingw.org/) and make sure the bin/ directory is on
                              your PATH. You will have to edit the gcc specs file to replace "-lmsvcrt" with
                              "-lmsvcr71". Its filename is lib/mingw32/3.4.2/specs . After that, use the
                              --compiler=mingw3 2 option on build_ext when using distutils.

                              --
                              Robert Kern
                              robert.kern@gma il.com

                              "I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
                              that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
                              an underlying truth."
                              -- Umberto Eco

                              Comment

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