Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

[Steve Holden]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

Kent Johnson wrote:[color=blue]
> Luis M. Gonzalez wrote:
>[color=green]
>>I don't think Pierre (Karrigell's creator) is awared of licenses and
>>legal issues.
>>Perhaps you can tell us what's the problem with GPL and, if possible,
>>propose an alternative...[/color]
>
>
> OK I'll try. First let me say I have no interest in a licensing flame war, there are valid
> reasons why an author might prefer one license over another and certainly there are good
> reasons to choose GPL. However the work I do is commercial and proprietary and I doubt I
> could get approval to release it under GPL. So I am restricted to projects with more
> liberal licenses such as MIT, BSD and Apache licenses. These allow closed-source
> distribution of products based on them.
>[/color]
I see the GPL is a problem in this environment, and you are clearly
aware of the issues it raises. Do be aware, though, that not all GPL
authors are rabid communists, and some will consider licensing to you
under other licenses if you ask them. It's always worth asking, as some
authors have chosen GPL in a somewhat uninformed way rather than as a
political statement (you'll notice I too am trying to avoid the flame wars).
[color=blue]
> Certainly it is within an author's rights to prohibit use of his code in closed source
> products, as the author of Karrigell has done by choosing GPL and I respect this decision.
> Unfortunately this makes it impossible for me to consider using Karrigell in my work. I
> recently needed a stand-alone web server for a small in-house project that might possibly
> be distributed to business partners or become a product some day. I chose CherryPy in part
> because its license allows this. I would have considered Karrigell if it had a different
> license.[/color]

As we say in Yorkshire, "You get nowt if you don't ask".

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com
PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/

[Paul Rubin]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

Steve Holden <steve@holdenwe b.com> writes:[color=blue][color=green]
> > However the work I do is commercial and proprietary and I doubt
> > I could get approval to release it under GPL.[/color]
> I see the GPL is a problem in this environment, and you are clearly
> aware of the issues it raises. Do be aware, though, that not all GPL
> authors are rabid communists, and some will consider licensing to you
> under other licenses if you ask them. It's always worth asking, as
> some authors have chosen GPL in a somewhat uninformed way rather than
> as a political statement (you'll notice I too am trying to avoid the
> flame wars).[/color]

I'm trying to avoid flame wars too, but my take on this is that Kent's
reading is a little too restrictive and the GPL isn't really a problem
in this situation unless he's actually modifying Karrigell itself,
rather than writing applications that run under it. I'm not trying to
advocate Karrigell (I browsed the docs for a minute and it looks nice
but I have no experience with it) but I don't see the GPL as an
obstacle to that type of usage. All kinds of proprietary applications
are written and distributed all the time to run under the GPL'd Linux
kernel and Karrigell apps don't seem too terribly different from that.

[Pierre Quentel]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

Hello all,

I am Karrigell's author. I have chosen the GPL licence almost at random
(I saw that the Python licence was GPL-compatible), so I don't mind
switching to another Open Source licence if the GPL is liable to cause
problems. Which one would you advice : BSD ? Python licence ? another ?

Regards,
Pierre

[Paul Rubin]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

"Pierre Quentel" <quentel.pierre @wanadoo.fr> writes:[color=blue]
> I am Karrigell's author. I have chosen the GPL licence almost at random
> (I saw that the Python licence was GPL-compatible), so I don't mind
> switching to another Open Source licence if the GPL is liable to cause
> problems. Which one would you advice : BSD ? Python licence ? another ?[/color]

My own hope (not shared by everyone obviously) is that you will stay
with the GPL, but make clear that applications that simply run under
Karrigell but don't modify the Karrigell code aren't subjected to the
GPL. That should satisfy Kent's concerns.

See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/pragmatic.html for some reasons to
use the GPL.

French version: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/pragmatic.fr.html

[Steve Holden]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

Paul Rubin wrote:[color=blue]
> Steve Holden <steve@holdenwe b.com> writes:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>However the work I do is commercial and proprietary and I doubt
>>>I could get approval to release it under GPL.[/color]
>>
>>I see the GPL is a problem in this environment, and you are clearly
>>aware of the issues it raises. Do be aware, though, that not all GPL
>>authors are rabid communists, and some will consider licensing to you
>>under other licenses if you ask them. It's always worth asking, as
>>some authors have chosen GPL in a somewhat uninformed way rather than
>>as a political statement (you'll notice I too am trying to avoid the
>>flame wars).[/color]
>
>
> I'm trying to avoid flame wars too, but my take on this is that Kent's
> reading is a little too restrictive and the GPL isn't really a problem
> in this situation unless he's actually modifying Karrigell itself,
> rather than writing applications that run under it. I'm not trying to
> advocate Karrigell (I browsed the docs for a minute and it looks nice
> but I have no experience with it) but I don't see the GPL as an
> obstacle to that type of usage. All kinds of proprietary applications
> are written and distributed all the time to run under the GPL'd Linux
> kernel and Karrigell apps don't seem too terribly different from that.[/color]

Indeed. But most software authors aren't lawyers and aren't likely to
trust their own judgment about these matters unless the situation is
pretty unambiguous. I suspect this may be evidence that Microsoft's
"viral" propaganda has had some effect.

In this case I agree there's likely to be a clear separation between
server and content that will allow Kent to distribute an unmodified
Karrigell and a separate proprietary content bundle without
interference, but it's too late (at least for that project) now.

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com
PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/

[Paul Rubin]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

Steve Holden <steve@holdenwe b.com> writes:[color=blue]
> Indeed. But most software authors aren't lawyers and aren't likely to
> trust their own judgment about these matters unless the situation is
> pretty unambiguous. I suspect this may be evidence that Microsoft's
> "viral" propaganda has had some effect.[/color]

Hmm, good point.
[color=blue]
> In this case I agree there's likely to be a clear separation between
> server and content that will allow Kent to distribute an unmodified
> Karrigell and a separate proprietary content bundle without
> interference, but it's too late (at least for that project) now.[/color]

Oh well.

[Pierre Quentel]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

I definitely don't want to invent another licence, there are enough of
them already !
Pierre

[Ben Sizer]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

Paul Rubin wrote:[color=blue]
> "Pierre Quentel" <quentel.pierre @wanadoo.fr> writes:[color=green]
> > I am Karrigell's author. I have chosen the GPL licence almost at random
> > (I saw that the Python licence was GPL-compatible), so I don't mind
> > switching to another Open Source licence if the GPL is liable to cause
> > problems. Which one would you advice : BSD ? Python licence ? another ?[/color]
>
> My own hope (not shared by everyone obviously) is that you will stay
> with the GPL, but make clear that applications that simply run under
> Karrigell but don't modify the Karrigell code aren't subjected to the
> GPL. That should satisfy Kent's concerns.[/color]

Unfortunately, that doesn't really satisfy the GPL's concerns. The work
arguably "contains or is derived from" Karrigell, which is explicitly
covered in section 2b of the GPL. If you start excluding key clauses
from the GPL, then there's little point using it.

To cut a long story short, and to avoid quibbling over the details of
how a license designed with the low-level mechanics of C-style programs
and libraries in mind actually applies to a language like Python with
very loose coupling, I'll just say that this sort of situation is
exactly what the LGPL exists for. I would suggest the author adopts the
LGPL as a good compromise between the community benefits of GPL and the
user benefits of, say, BSD or zlib licenses.

--
Ben Sizer

[Paul Rubin]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

"Ben Sizer" <kylotan@gmail. com> writes:[color=blue]
> Unfortunately, that doesn't really satisfy the GPL's concerns. The work
> arguably "contains or is derived from" Karrigell,[/color]

I don't see that. The web app gets run by Karrigell like a CGI script
is run by Apache, like a Linux app is run by the Linux kernel. The
Linux kernel is GPL but that doesn't mean every Linux app that calls
through the kernel through its documented API is affected. The Linux
kernel GPL only comes into play if you start modifying the kernel, not
writing programs that use it.
[color=blue]
> which is explicitly covered in section 2b of the GPL. If you start
> excluding key clauses from the GPL, then there's little point using it.[/color]

There should be no exclusion.
[color=blue]
> To cut a long story short, and to avoid quibbling over the details of
> how a license designed with the low-level mechanics of C-style programs
> and libraries in mind actually applies to a language like Python with
> very loose coupling, I'll just say that this sort of situation is
> exactly what the LGPL exists for.[/color]

The LGPL has fallen into some disfavor at the FSF, and I don't see
Karrigell as a library. The application is not an integrated blob
combining Karrigell and user code, from what I can tell. Rather, the
user code is run under Karrigell's control, like Karrigell itself
is run under the Python interpreter.
[color=blue]
> I would suggest the author adopts the LGPL as a good compromise
> between the community benefits of GPL and the user benefits of, say,
> BSD or zlib licenses.[/color]

But that doesn't gain the community benefits of the GPL since it
foregoes the possibility of users improving Karrigell by incorporating
other GPL'd code into it and distributing the improved version.

[Richie Hindle]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?


[Pierre][color=blue]
> I am Karrigell's author. I have chosen the GPL licence almost at random
> (I saw that the Python licence was GPL-compatible), so I don't mind
> switching to another Open Source licence if the GPL is liable to cause
> problems. Which one would you advice : BSD ? Python licence ? another ?[/color]

Well done on being open-minded!

You will hear valid arguments for GPL, LGPL, BSD and other licenses (though
the Python license is unsuitable for anything other than Python - see
http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonSo...tionLicenseFaq)

A good solution would be multiple-licensing. You state that the code is
(for example) triple-licensed under the GPL, LGPL and BSD licenses. The
user of your code decides which license to obey. It's no more work for you,
and you can please almost everyone (the only people you won't please are
those who believe that there is One True License, and frankly you should
ignore them - it's your code).

The only downside of allowing people to choose the BSD license rather than
the GPL is that potentially someone can choose the BSD license, improve
Karrigell, ship their product based on the improved code, and not give those
improvements back to the community. But the Python license allows for this
too, and Python hasn't suffered for it. IMO choosing a BSD license will get
you more users than GPL, and the benefits of that will outweigh the
potential downside.

--
Richie Hindle
richie@entrian. com

[Paul Rubin]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

Richie Hindle <richie@entrian .com> writes:[color=blue]
> A good solution would be multiple-licensing. You state that the
> code is (for example) triple-licensed under the GPL, LGPL and BSD
> licenses. The user of your code decides which license to obey.
> It's no more work for you, and you can please almost everyone (the
> only people you won't please are those who believe that there is One
> True License, and frankly you should ignore them - it's your code).[/color]

That's silly, you might as well just use BSD instead of triple
licensing like that.
[color=blue]
> The only downside of allowing people to choose the BSD license
> rather than the GPL is that potentially someone can choose the BSD
> license, improve Karrigell, ship their product based on the improved
> code, and not give those improvements back to the community.[/color]

Another downside to BSD is that it becomes impermissible to improve
Karrigell by transplanting GPL code into it from other programs. Yet
another downside is that it leads some potential contributors to not
bother getting involved with such projects. (On the other hand, it
possibly attracts some different potential contributors).
[color=blue]
> But the Python license allows for this too, and Python hasn't
> suffered for it.[/color]

That Python hasn't suffered for it is a questionable assertion.
[color=blue]
> IMO choosing a BSD license will get you more users than GPL, and
> the benefits of that will outweigh the potential downside.[/color]

Of course anyone is entitled to hold any opinion they choose. I have
to say both notions expressed there (that BSD will attract more users,
and that merely attracting more users produces such big benefits) are
questionable. As for me, for something like this, I'd be more
interested in attracting more contributors than in merely attracting
more users with me doing all the work. But what Karrigell's author
wants is of course purely up to the him.

[Kent Johnson]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

Steve Holden wrote:[color=blue]
> Paul Rubin wrote:[color=green]
>> I'm trying to avoid flame wars too, but my take on this is that Kent's
>> reading is a little too restrictive and the GPL isn't really a problem
>> in this situation unless he's actually modifying Karrigell itself,
>> rather than writing applications that run under it. I'm not trying to
>> advocate Karrigell (I browsed the docs for a minute and it looks nice
>> but I have no experience with it) but I don't see the GPL as an
>> obstacle to that type of usage. All kinds of proprietary applications
>> are written and distributed all the time to run under the GPL'd Linux
>> kernel and Karrigell apps don't seem too terribly different from that.[/color][/color]

You may be right, I honestly don't know. Would your interpretation change if I wanted to
distribute an app built with py2exe that bundles Karrigell and my code?
[color=blue]
> Indeed. But most software authors aren't lawyers and aren't likely to
> trust their own judgment about these matters unless the situation is
> pretty unambiguous.[/color]

That really is the issue as much as anything. Paul has raised some good questions for
which I don't have good answers. Maybe using Karrigell is analogous to writing an app to
run on Linux. OTOH maybe it is more like linking to a library. I could ask the author for
clarification - which I would then have to document in a form acceptable to my own
company's lawyers. Or I could choose to use a product that doesn't leave any doubt that I
can distribute it as I like in a proprietary product.
[color=blue]
> I suspect this may be evidence that Microsoft's
> "viral" propaganda has had some effect.[/color]

Not in my case, at least. I have been avoiding GPL products at work for many years, much
longer than Microsoft has been telling me to do so.
[color=blue]
>
> In this case I agree there's likely to be a clear separation between
> server and content that will allow Kent to distribute an unmodified
> Karrigell and a separate proprietary content bundle without
> interference, but it's too late (at least for that project) now.[/color]

Maybe next time...

Kent

[Raffaele Salmaso]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

Pierre Quentel ha scritto:[color=blue]
> Hello all,
>
> I am Karrigell's author. I have chosen the GPL licence almost at random
> (I saw that the Python licence was GPL-compatible), so I don't mind
> switching to another Open Source licence if the GPL is liable to cause
> problems. Which one would you advice : BSD ? Python licence ? another ?[/color]
I think you should use the BSD or the Python License.
I've choose the BSD for my works, with these clauses (my intentions are
clearly stated, so no misinterpretati on should be done):

Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:

1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
3. If the binary program depends on a modified version of this package,
you are encouraged to publicly release the modified version of this
package.

THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS "AS
IS" AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED
TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A
PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT
HOLDERS OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL,
SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED
TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR
PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF
LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING
NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS
SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.

And it is almost the same of CherryPy, which you use.

--
()_() | Ho un cervello, non sono analfabeta e non sento | +----
(o.o) | l'irrefrenabile bisogno di deturpare la mia lingua | +---+
'm m' | madre con "K" ed abbreviazioni.. . | O |
(___) | K.K.K (Kill the "Key" Klub)|
raffaele punto salmaso at gmail punto com

[Arthur Clune]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

Kent Johnson wrote:[color=blue]
>
> OK I'll try. First let me say I have no interest in a licensing flame war, there are valid
> reasons why an author might prefer one license over another and certainly there are good
> reasons to choose GPL. However the work I do is commercial and proprietary and I doubt I
> could get approval to release it under GPL. So I am restricted to projects with more
> liberal licenses such as MIT, BSD and Apache licenses. These allow closed-source
> distribution of products based on them.
>[/color]

As long as the author holds copyright on all the code, he can release it to you under
any license he wants, as well as via GPL to the world (this is how MySQL and SleepyCat
opterate).

So you could, for example, offer him X pounds/dollars/euros for a BSD version + support
etc.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune

[Fuzzyman]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

BSD license is good. It requires that your copyright notice be included
with any derivative works - but otherwise lets users create and
distribute derivatives how they see fit. The version I use is at
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/license.shtml (which links to the
version at the OSI).

The MIT license is even *less* restrictive. I would use one or other of
these two.

All the best,

Fuzzyman
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml