Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

[Alia Khouri]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

In http://subway.python-hosting.com/ticket/216 Peter Mere writes:

"Subway has a lot of ideas TurboGears lacks. Everything from the
@client ajax-in-python to CherryFlow. On technical merits, Subway
should eat TurboGears' dinner.

But we all know market outcomes are not based on technical merit.
They're based on marketing. And as an open-source marketing project,
TurboGears is eating Subway's dinner. And not just those low-fat subs,
either - they're pouring it on thick!

It is a truism that python is the language with more web app frameworks
than keywords. Of this LaoTse wrote, "Conquest is a method of union.
The smaller submits to the larger to obtain custom. The larger submits
to the smaller to obtain service. If both would endure, both must
submit."

So it's time to stop trumpeting subway as "the best framework", and by
uniting with TurboGears definitively create the best web app framework.
The combination of the two would become an unstoppable juggernaut of
python mindshare, and all the rest of the frameworks would either
componentize or be dismissed as toys.

If Subway does not unite, chaos will continue in python web app land,
and ruby will become ascendant. This is more than a critical issue -
don't dismiss it without understanding that doing so will have severe
repercussions for subway (and by a process of horsshoe nail extraction,
the whole world!)"

All I can say is HEAR HEAR!!!!

AK

[gene tani]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?


Alia Khouri wrote:[color=blue]
> In http://subway.python-hosting.com/ticket/216 Peter Mere writes:
>
>
> "Conquest is a method of union.[/color]
....[color=blue]
> unstoppable juggernaut of[/color]
[color=blue]
> chaos will continue in python web app land,
> and ruby will become ascendant. This is more than a critical issue -
> don't dismiss it without understanding that doing so will have severe
> repercussions for subway (and by a process of horsshoe nail extraction,
> the whole world!)"
>
> All I can say is HEAR HEAR!!!!
>
> AK[/color]

I feel like i'm being indoctrinated for a cult that won't let you eat
or go to the bathroom

[Mike Meyer]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

"chuck" <cmedcoff@gmail .com> writes:[color=blue]
> As I read through this thread I can't say that I disagree that having
> more choices is a 'good thing'. However in your example here - I
> suspect that you are a bit sharper and have a bit more guts than your
> average code slinger since you appear to be an independent. You've got
> to remember that your average corporate programmer - which are the
> folks driving the popularity of programming languages - isn't that
> sharp/confident. (I don't mean to insult anyone but that just the
> facts.) They don't do things like evaluate frameworks and make smart
> choices.[/color]

Let's just note that sturgeon's law applies to all programmers, and
let it go at that. I'll get back to this.

And thank you.
[color=blue]
> One of the great things about Python is its simplicty/clarity. Its a
> shame that there doesn't also exist a clarity of choice for a web
> framework for Python or an IDE for that matter. Both of these would go
> a long way in motivating people to take a look at Python and realizing
> what great value it has to offer the IT world in solving problems.[/color]

I'm not a big fan of popularity for the sake of popularity. While
there's nothing wrong with popularity, and it does have it's
advantages, "it would make Python more popular" isn't an adequate
justification for a change, and *certainly* not for a change that is
otherwise undesirable. After all, sturgeon's law applies to the
populace, so "the populace's" skill at judging languages/IDEs/etc. is
debatable at best.

If having to many web frameworks is a real problem, let's work on
it. If not - well, we'll suffer with the consequences of using
high-quality, if obscure, tools.

And, to head off the obvious complaints, "not being designed by the
populate" does not imply "hard for the populace to use". With Lehrer's
comments on folk music in mind, I'd argue that the reverse implication
is more likely true.

<mike
--
Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.or g> http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.

[Mike Meyer]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

"Ben Sizer" <kylotan@gmail. com> writes:[color=blue]
> I see what you mean, but unfortunately I think there is a lot more
> fuzziness than that. If the separate parts were clearly delineated
> things would be a lot better. I look to the Database API Specification
> as a great example of how this could (should?) be done, allowing for
> easy interchangeabil ity while still providing a well-documented
> standard[/color]

Constant queries on c.l.python for "Which DB module should I use"
would indicate that having a standard and to many choices isn't really
better than having no standard and to many choices.
[color=blue]
> and the opportunity to bundle a basic module with the standard
> library without raising the difficulty level for those who wish to
> use other frameworks.[/color]

Marking one web framework - or one DB module - as blessed would
certainly ease the problem. I don't have a problem with that, but I
don't build a Python distribution.
[color=blue]
> A PyWebForm API and a PyWebSession API
> would be fairly easy to create, for example. Templating maybe less so,
> but not much.[/color]

I'm not convinced these would be fairly easy to cerate. If you think
that's the case, please take a shot at it, as I think such a standard
would be a good thing.

<mike
--
Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.or g> http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.

[chuck]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

> Let's just note that sturgeon's law applies to all programmers, and[color=blue]
> let it go at that. I'll get back to this.[/color]

fine
[color=blue]
> And thank you.[/color]

you are welcome
[color=blue]
> I'm not a big fan of popularity for the sake of popularity.[/color]
neither am I
[color=blue]
> "it would make Python more popular" isn't an adequate
> justification for a change[/color]

I disagree. The world desperately needs programming languages,
frameworks, etc. that allow for the more efficient creation and
maintenance of software application - web or otherwise. I happen to
think that Python is something that could help. With this regard the
popularity of Python seems relevant to me.
[color=blue]
>and *certainly* not for a change that is
> otherwise undesirable.[/color]

please explain

[Mike Meyer]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

"Alia Khouri" <alia_khouri@ya hoo.com> writes:[color=blue]
> If Subway does not unite, chaos will continue in python web app land,
> and ruby will become ascendant. This is more than a critical issue -
> don't dismiss it without understanding that doing so will have severe
> repercussions for subway (and by a process of horsshoe nail extraction,
> the whole world!)"[/color]

Um - why should I switch to subway?

<mike
--
Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.or g> http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.

[Mike Meyer]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

"chuck" <cmedcoff@gmail .com> writes:[color=blue][color=green]
>> "it would make Python more popular" isn't an adequate
>> justification for a change[/color]
> I disagree. The world desperately needs programming languages,
> frameworks, etc. that allow for the more efficient creation and
> maintenance of software application - web or otherwise. I happen to
> think that Python is something that could help. With this regard the
> popularity of Python seems relevant to me.[/color]

I think Python is popular enough that it's not going to
vanish. Once you've reached that point, further popularity doesn't
helop your cause.
[color=blue][color=green]
>>and *certainly* not for a change that is
>> otherwise undesirable.[/color]
> please explain[/color]

It's conceivable that a change might make Python more popular and also
detract from the language in some way. For a ridiculous example,
making Python interpret Perl 6 would certainly make it more popular,
but I would argue that would seiously detract from the language.

<mike
--
Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.or g> http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.

[bonono@gmail.com]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?


Mike Meyer wrote:[color=blue]
> It's conceivable that a change might make Python more popular and also
> detract from the language in some way. For a ridiculous example,
> making Python interpret Perl 6 would certainly make it more popular,
> but I would argue that would seiously detract from the language.
>[/color]
why would one want python to interpret Perl 6 ?

[Mike Meyer]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

bonono@gmail.co m writes:[color=blue]
> Mike Meyer wrote:[color=green]
>> It's conceivable that a change might make Python more popular and also
>> detract from the language in some way. For a ridiculous example,
>> making Python interpret Perl 6 would certainly make it more popular,
>> but I would argue that would seiously detract from the language.[/color]
> why would one want python to interpret Perl 6 ?[/color]

So you could have a perl 6 interpreter, of course. Assuming you
wanted one, of course.

<mike
--
Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.or g> http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.

[floydophone@gmail.com]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

I'm the founder and lead developer of Subway.

I am all for it. TG would have to change a couple of things IMHO, but I
think it would be a great idea.

If we were to merge projects, we would have to get a serious
TurbowaySubgear s blogging hype train going.

- Peter Hunt

[John J. Lee]

Merging Subway and TurboGears (was: Re: Which Python web framework ismost ...)

floydophone@gma il.com writes:
[color=blue]
> I'm the founder and lead developer of Subway.
>
> I am all for it. TG would have to change a couple of things IMHO, but I
> think it would be a great idea.[/color]

+100

[color=blue]
> If we were to merge projects, we would have to get a serious
> TurbowaySubgear s blogging hype train going.[/color]

Be big and use the 'TurboGears' name. It has good PR.

crackajax is *so* cool :-) How is it coming along?


John

[floydophone@gmail.com]

Re: Merging Subway and TurboGears (was: Re: Which Python web framework is most ...)

I am looking for ways to improve CrackAJAX; I added for...in loops and
iterators, but it still needs work.

I would plan on sticking with the Turbogears name if we were to merge.
My real worries are the controller styles (functions vs classes) and
the templating language (Cheetah vs Kid). Those will be points of
conflict between the two projects, but I hope we would be able to solve
them.

Thoughts?

Pete

[Jan Niklas Fingerle]

Re: Merging Subway and TurboGears

floydophone@gma il.com wrote:[color=blue]
> My real worries are the controller styles (functions vs classes) and[/color]

You can wrap those quite easily, but ...
[color=blue]
> the templating language (Cheetah vs Kid). Those will be points of[/color]

.... how should the user base of one migrate to the other? I depend on
(as far as "depend" might go) the Kid funtionality (i.e. importing
ElementTree-s as sub-trees, and ElementTree is part of the heart of my
application logics).
[color=blue]
> conflict between the two projects, but I hope we would be able to solve
> them.[/color]

Use Kid ;-) Well, no, make it easy to change templating engines,
whatever you ship as included engine.

Cheers,
--Jan Niklas

[Luis M. Gonzalez]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

Sorry for the interruption, but...
Has anyone tried KARRIGELL??

I find hard to believe there is any easier python framework than this
one.
It's incredibly flexible, very fun, very powerful and with an almost
flat learning curve.

Go check it out (NOW!)

http://karrigell.sourceforge.net/

[Russell E. Owen]

Re: Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?

In article <7xbqzhr7qj.fsf @ruckus.brouhah a.com>,
Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.i nvalid> wrote:
[color=blue]
>aleax@mail.com cast.net (Alex Martelli) writes:[color=green]
>> To put it another way: one reason I love Python is that I strongly
>> subscribe to the idea that there should preferably be only one obvious
>> way to do something. Unfortunately, this principle is very badly broken
>> by the multiplicity of Python web frameworks.[/color]
>
>This also has to be a big part of why PHP is kicking the pants off of
>Python for popularity in web development.[/color]

I agree. It's sad to see such a terrible language as PHP so popular, and
such a complicated mess in python, my language of choice.

I love python and am lucky enough to be able to do almost all my coding
in it. Yet even I use PHP to serve a database. I loathe PHP, but:
- it came preinstalled on my system (MacOS X 10.3.x).
- I found a nice simple intro to it (a quickstart guide, which taught me
all I needed to know for my simple needs).
- I started out by looking at the choices in python. Of course. I read
the shootout. I asked for help. But the results were utterly
overwhelming.

I wanted (and I am guessing this isn't too far off for most users -- at
least most non-web-gurus) a framework that was:
- Well designed, robust, "finished" (i.e. not alpha).
- Easy to use, especially for simple, basic tasks. (And not a toy, of
course -- powerful enough to handle reasonable traffic and tasks.)
- Easy to install.
- Well documented, with a good introduction or tutorial.
- Likely to be around for awhile. The plethora of options on Python do
NOT inspire confidence in that area.

Some choice is good -- especially if the choices solve obviously
different problems. But too much choice is paralyzing and fragments the
community.

Anyway, thanks for holding this discussion. Django and TurboGears were
both new to me. I hope something finally gets popular enough to be worth
betting on.

-- Russell