IDE

[Thomas Lindgaard]

Hello

I am probably going to start a war now... but so be it :)

I just want to hear what all you guys who eat pythons for breakfast use
for python coding. Currently I use Kate, but I would really like an IDE
with debugger and a source browser (ie. one the I can use to browse
through modules etc. when looking for just the right curses stuff and such
- I am a newcomer to Python).

.... and no, Emacs or Vi are not what I want :)

--
Mvh.
/Thomas

[Tor Iver Wilhelmsen]

Re: IDE

Thomas Lindgaard <thomas@it-snedkeren.BLACK _HOLE.dk> writes:
[color=blue]
> I just want to hear what all you guys who eat pythons for breakfast use
> for python coding. Currently I use Kate, but I would really like an IDE
> with debugger and a source browser (ie. one the I can use to browse
> through modules etc. when looking for just the right curses stuff and such
> - I am a newcomer to Python).[/color]

If you want to target .Net:

http://www.activestate.com/Products/Visual_Python/

I thought they had something for "non-.Net" Python as well, but can't
see anything.

[Mike C. Fletcher]

Re: IDE

Thomas Lindgaard wrote:
[color=blue]
>Hello
>
>I am probably going to start a war now... but so be it :)
>
>[/color]
Mmm editor wars.
[color=blue]
>I just want to hear what all you guys who eat pythons for breakfast use
>for python coding. Currently I use Kate, but I would really like an IDE
>with debugger and a source browser (ie. one the I can use to browse
>through modules etc. when looking for just the right curses stuff and such
>- I am a newcomer to Python).
>
>[/color]
For Win32, PythonWin (though it doesn't have what I think you're
thinking of as a "source browser"). For Linux, Eric3 (make sure to get
the latest release, Gentoo, at least, has an old one as "stable"), which
is probably what you want (since you mention the KDE editor Kate).
SciTe is also popular, but it's a bare-bones editor, while Eric is an
all-singing-all-dancing IDE. Finally, though I've not tried it, Eclipse
apparently has some Python plugins somewhere.

Have fun,
Mike

_______________ _______________ _______________ ___
Mike C. Fletcher
Designer, VR Plumber, Coder

http://members.rogers.com/mcfletch/

blog: http://zope.vex.net/~mcfletch/plumbing/

[Christopher T King]

Re: IDE

On Wed, 14 Jul 2004, Mike C. Fletcher wrote:
[color=blue]
> For Win32, PythonWin (though it doesn't have what I think you're
> thinking of as a "source browser").[/color]

Actually, it does (Tools->Browser, Tools->Browse PythonPath). It even has
COM browsing built in (at least in the ActiveState version, unsure about
the others). Nifty stuff!

Also, pydoc should suffice for most "source browsing" needs: pydoc -p 8080
(python c:/python23/Lib/pydoc.py -p 8080 on Windows) will start an HTTP
server on localhost:8080 you can use for module browsing (even of your own
classes). pydoc -g will do the same, but also pop up a nifty little
search window.

[Paul Morrow]

Re: IDE

Up until about a month ago, I used Boa (the cvs version), ActiveState's
PythonWin (great help file!), and SciTe.

But then I took another look at Wing IDE. Check out their new beta
version 2.0 --- it's $179 US, but is *very* good compared to the 'free'
alternatives. We liked it so much that we bought 11 developer licenses.
You can download a 10 day trial (extendable for another 10 days) to
see for yourself.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?PythonIde lists the other Python IDEs out there.

Paul

[chris]

Re: IDE

Thomas Lindgaard wrote:
[color=blue]
> Hello
>
> I am probably going to start a war now... but so be it :)
>
> I just want to hear what all you guys who eat pythons for breakfast use
> for python coding. Currently I use Kate, but I would really like an IDE
> with debugger and a source browser (ie. one the I can use to browse
> through modules etc. when looking for just the right curses stuff and such
> - I am a newcomer to Python).
>
> ... and no, Emacs or Vi are not what I want :)
>[/color]

you might want to try SPE http://spe.pycs.net/ which altough a 0.5
release is quite stable and has lots of features which might come in
handy...

cheers
chris

[Paul Prescod]

Re: IDE

Tor Iver Wilhelmsen wrote:[color=blue]
>...
>
> If you want to target .Net:
>
> http://www.activestate.com/Products/Visual_Python/
>
> I thought they had something for "non-.Net" Python as well, but can't
> see anything.[/color]

http://www.activestate.com/Products/Komodo/

Paul Preacod

[Peter Milliken]

Re: IDE


Let's not do the war thing :-) But perhaps an exchange of information?

Me, I use Emacs - have done so for 20 years now with never a regret. When I
see a feature that I like (enough) in another editor I implement it in Emacs
(if it doesn't already have it - something that is getting harder and harder
to do these days :-)). I understand completely that many do not like Emacs
because of the "magic incantations" required to run commands i.e. sets of
key sequences - but I don't like using mice and menus - takes longer than
keyboard access (right hand off the keyboard onto the mouse, then back
again) and how else can you provide efficient access to such a wealth of
commands? :-) But I shouldn't digress into look and feel - many an argument
could be had with a Vi user over that! :-)

So what are the interesting "features" (as opposed to "I just like the look
and feel of editor X" - I don't desire a discussion on "warm, fuzzy
feelings" about your favourite editor - we all know how "religious" these
things can be :-)) in any of the editors that people have settled upon for
their personal use? For example the following comment is made in another
(later) thread:

"augment Leo's mind blowing qualities" - which means what? :-) Other than
the fact the writer likes Leo? :-)

I'll (attempt) to kick the discussion off with the features of Emacs that I
like and use in everyday programming of Python (not necessarily in order of
importance :-)):

1. available for any OS/platform that I have worked on over the last 20
years and the forseeable future - the one time I couldn't get a native
binary was for VMS and the company didn't want the expense of installing NFS
so then I used the (transparent) ftp access built into Emacs to edit files
on the VMS file system all from a PC running Windoze (ange-ftp allows
editting of files that are accessed using standard ftp operations but are
hooked into the standard Emacs read/write file commands - so the user is
"unaware" of the file access mechanism).

2. the (obvious) generic IDE capability i.e. compile and debugging from
within the editor

3. code completion - a la LSE from the VMS editor of that name (see the
reference to ELSE on http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/EmacsEditor) -
note this is not "syntax completion", although I have written some code that
allows scanning of Python modules and then generation of code templates for
ELSE that generate call templates with the named parameters filled in and
code templates for where the coder must supply the arguments. But I guess I
am not big on "syntax completion" - I haven't really used to the code since
I wrote it, although I do use ELSE itself extensively in writing my Python
code :-)

4. User extendable using either Lisp or Python ( :-) ) - (see the reference
to Pymacs on http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/EmacsEditor).
"Extendabil ity" of the editor to create new commands/functionality as
opposed to "macro" capability.

5. Integration with Ispell/Aspell i.e. Emacs is intelligent enough to spell
check only the comments and strings - which can be extremely handy when
writing code! Nothing more embarrassing than a poorly spelt message to a
user! :-)

6. Unix "screen" like capability i.e. having multiple "virtual" instances of
the editor (each with its own window/buffer view) available via simple key
switching - but not "cluttering " the Windoze landscape with multiple
instances (although you can configure Emacs to work that way too :-)).

7. Given sufficient physical screen real-estate, you can "split" the editor
display into multiple "windows" - both horizontally and vertically - the
number of "splits" limited only by the physical display. My "faviourite "
configuration is two vertical, 80 column windows side-by-side - one or both
then generally get split horizontally as I look at other files or positions
within the same file.

8. "Free" - in this day of powerful editors that are available for zero
cost, why purchase one? Either shareware or commercial?

9. syntax highlighting (almost not worth mentioning since it is so common?)

These are just some of the reasons I use Emacs. What features of *your*
editor attracted you? How does it help you with writing Python code (the
intent after all of this news group :-)). Does your editor have a feature
that I have not listed above and yet you consider it *essential* (or at
least very handy :-)) in your generation of Python code?

So whilst I know that Thomas does not "want Emacs or Vi", I believe my
response is in the spirit of the original email :-)

Regards
Peter

"Thomas Lindgaard" <thomas@it-snedkeren.BLACK _HOLE.dk> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.0 7.14.12.38.48.9 68534@it-snedkeren.BLACK _HOLE.dk...[color=blue]
> Hello
>
> I am probably going to start a war now... but so be it :)
>
> I just want to hear what all you guys who eat pythons for breakfast use
> for python coding. Currently I use Kate, but I would really like an IDE
> with debugger and a source browser (ie. one the I can use to browse
> through modules etc. when looking for just the right curses stuff and such
> - I am a newcomer to Python).
>
> ... and no, Emacs or Vi are not what I want :)
>
> --
> Mvh.
> /Thomas
>[/color]

[Markus Wankus]

Re: IDE

Thomas Lindgaard wrote:[color=blue]
> Hello
>
> I am probably going to start a war now... but so be it :)
>
> I just want to hear what all you guys who eat pythons for breakfast use
> for python coding. Currently I use Kate, but I would really like an IDE
> with debugger and a source browser (ie. one the I can use to browse
> through modules etc. when looking for just the right curses stuff and such
> - I am a newcomer to Python).
>
> ... and no, Emacs or Vi are not what I want :)
>[/color]

If you don't mind "bleeding edge" software - pydev for Eclipse is coming
along. You can try it for yourself:

http://pydev.sourceforge.net/

Markus.

[Ed Leafe]

Re: IDE

On Jul 14, 2004, at 6:22 PM, Peter Milliken wrote:
[color=blue]
> These are just some of the reasons I use Emacs. What features of *your*
> editor attracted you? How does it help you with writing Python code
> (the
> intent after all of this news group :-)). Does your editor have a
> feature
> that I have not listed above and yet you consider it *essential* (or at
> least very handy :-)) in your generation of Python code?[/color]

I develop on multiple platforms, but only have an OS X machine in my
office. My other systems are accessible via ssh, vnc and RemoteDesktop.

I use BBEdit, the venerable text editor for the Mac. Yeah, it has all
the usual stuff that many other editors have, but the one thing I find
indespensible (being lazy and all) is a plug-in called
'BBAutoComplete '. In a nutshell, it keeps track of *every* word you've
written in *every* open editor window, and will auto-complete
*anything*. Pressing its hotkey cycles through all potential matches,
starting with the most recent word that begins with what you've typed.

For a lazy person like me, it's amazingly valuable. I find myself
hitting the hotkey in other editors and even when composing mail
messages such as this. I even do a lot of my Visual FoxPro coding in
BBEdit now, even though it doesn't have syntax coloring for it.

___/
/
__/
/
____/
Ed Leafe

http://leafe.com/

http://dabodev.com/

[Ville Vainio]

Re: IDE

>>>>> "Markus" == Markus Wankus <markus_wankusG ETRIDOFALLCAPS@ hotmail.com> writes:

Markus> If you don't mind "bleeding edge" software - pydev for
Markus> Eclipse is coming along. You can try it for yourself:

Markus> http://pydev.sourceforge.net/

Too bad pydev development seems to be stopping - the developer is
losing interest in the project (or at least that is what is said on
the project page). I tried it yesterday, it seems very promising
(though the debugger was very slow).

Eclipse is the only candidate worthy of replacing Emacs in the future,
so here's to hoping someone will adopt the pydev project at some
point.

--
Ville Vainio http://tinyurl.com/2prnb

[Ville Vainio]

[OT] Emacs, Eclipse, Leo (was Re: IDE

>>>>> "Peter" == Peter Milliken <peterm@resmed. com.au> writes:

Peter> Let's not do the war thing :-) But perhaps an exchange of
Peter> information?

Peter> Me, I use Emacs - have done so for 20 years now with never
Peter> a regret. When I

I use Emacs as my main editor/mail/news too. Too bad Emacs seems to
lack the development energy these days to match the features of modern
IDEs. I'm mostly talking about features like robust code completion
for C++ - cedet doesn't cut it yet (though it'll hit 1.0 RSN), and
there just isn't enough developers to make it work hitchlessly. There
seems to be a resource shortage on xemacs side, and GNU emacs is,
well, too RMSic to do anything modern. Now they are integrating GTK,
which is a good sign of course ;-).

Lately I've been starting to hope that Eclipse project would take the
role of Ultimate Editor That Will Be Around Tomorrow - something which
you can expect to use 10 years from now. It has its shortcomings (big,
slow, Java), but it's the best we've got so far.

Peter> key sequences - but I don't like using mice and menus -
Peter> takes longer than

Yes, complete keyboard is a must for something you plan on using all
the time.

Peter> their personal use? For example the following comment is
Peter> made in another (later) thread:

Peter> "augment Leo's mind blowing qualities" - which means what?
Peter> :-) Other than the fact the writer likes Leo? :-)

As the author of the comment, I think I need to explain a bit. Leo is
mindblowing, not as an editor but as an intelligence management
platform. I could easily imagine project managers using it to organize
things. It seems to have endless usage possibilities, of which
programming (or text editing is only a fraction). Ed was talking about
implementing a multi-user editor, and I imagined it would be quite
sweet to have outlines there too, from team collaboration perspective.

Peter> code templates for where the coder must supply the
Peter> arguments. But I guess I am not big on "syntax completion"
Peter> - I haven't really used to the code since I wrote it,
Peter> although I do use ELSE itself extensively in writing my
Peter> Python code :-)

Syntax completion (or semantic completion, or "intellisen se" - syntax
completion suggests insertion of code templates, which are simple in
python anyway) is very handy in multi-person projects, or projects
that have craploads of code written by other people - sdk developers,
various subcontractors, whatever. Maybe less so in Python - for some
reason Python code is usually more "direct" and elegant - but it would
help a lot. We need some kind of static type information to provide
intellisense for Python, though. It's just something that needs to be
standardized in the language level, so tool writers can proceed with
implementing the intellisense.

Peter> 4. User extendable using either Lisp or Python ( :-) ) -
Peter> (see the reference

Here I hope eclipse + jython will turn out to be the "preferred" way
to extend the platform. Maybe someday :-).

Peter> 8. "Free" - in this day of powerful editors that are
Peter> available for zero cost, why purchase one? Either shareware
Peter> or commercial?

Yes, this is a must. Free beer & speech. Eclipse seems to combine the
best of both worlds here - the platform is free, but companies can
sell plugins for money. That way you are not "trapped" and can hold on
to your editing habits, while using some commercial stuff for exta
functionality; it won't hurt if it's company money :-).

--
Ville Vainio http://tinyurl.com/2prnb

[Wolfgang Langner]

Re: IDE

Hello,

Ville Vainio wrote:
[color=blue]
> Markus> If you don't mind "bleeding edge" software - pydev for
> Markus> Eclipse is coming along. You can try it for yourself:
>
> Markus> http://pydev.sourceforge.net/
>
> Too bad pydev development seems to be stopping - the developer is
> losing interest in the project (or at least that is what is said on
> the project page). I tried it yesterday, it seems very promising
> (though the debugger was very slow).[/color]

I think the project is very activ:

Activity Percentile (last week): 98.4802%

Last release:

pydev 0.5, the katzenmeyer kids July 12, 2004

if the developer is losing interest, he does it on a very hight level. :-)

bye by Wolfgang

[Steve Lamb]

Re: IDE

On 2004-07-14, Thomas Lindgaard <thomas@it-snedkeren.BLACK _HOLE.dk> wrote:[color=blue]
> I just want to hear what all you guys who eat pythons for breakfast use
> for python coding. Currently I use Kate, but I would really like an IDE
> with debugger and a source browser (ie. one the I can use to browse
> through modules etc. when looking for just the right curses stuff and such
> - I am a newcomer to Python).[/color]

Kdevelop3?
boa-constructor?

--
Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

[Ville Vainio]

Re: IDE

>>>>> "Wolfgang" == Wolfgang Langner <wl@flexis.de > writes:

Wolfgang> I think the project is very activ:

Wolfgang> Activity Percentile (last week): 98.4802%

Wolfgang> Last release:

Wolfgang> pydev 0.5, the katzenmeyer kids July 12, 2004

Wolfgang> if the developer is losing interest, he does it on a
Wolfgang> very hight level. :-)

Apparently he's "finishing" it.

From http://pydev.sourceforge.net/ :

Future My plans for the future are:

- 0.5 will be a bug-fix release, I am sure there are a few, there has
been a lot of new code between 0.3 & 0.4.

- 1.0 will be an Eclipse 3.0 compatibility release. There are some new
debugger features like an environment tab that are cheap to implement,
and very useful.

And that's it. Over & out, off to new projects.

So if you like this tool, it'll be up to you to take it to where you
want it to be.

--
Ville Vainio http://tinyurl.com/2prnb