PyQt, Qt, Windows and Linux

[Alex Martelli]

Re: PyQt, Qt, Windows and Linux

Jim wrote:
...[color=blue]
> Edition but I think you just told me the opposite. If I buy the Personal
> Edition and use it to write my program, I won't have the capability to run
> that software on any other computer besides my own (personal to me) ...
> not even my wife's computer downstairs, i.e., so the runtime elements
> don't come with the Personal Edition - which makes it functionally
> different?[/color]

I think the difference is legal (contractual), not technical: you do not
have the _permission_ to copy runtime elements to other computers, even
though you may have the physical ability to do so.

[color=blue]
> theKompany web page says the Business Edition is "for commercial use."
> From my understanding, commercial means of or relating to commerce and
> commerce is buying and selling products and I'm not selling anything. This[/color]

Qt (all the way from Trolltech) is peculiar that way: if you want to
distribute programs that run under Microsoft Windows, then you do need
a commercial license (there are other variants such as the "academic"
license, etc, but I don't think they apply here). Presumably the concept
is that if people choose to pay for their operating systems, rather than
supporting free ones, they may well pay for applications too.
[color=blue]
> is really confusing. I want to honor whatever licence I buy but it doesn't
> seem reasonable that I would have to pay $400 so I can give my own program
> away freely.[/color]

If you develop your Qt/PyQt applications with eric3 and distribute them
as free software (GPL) then you do not need to pay anybody anything. If
you distribute applications otherwise than under GPL, or distribute
applications that run on Windows, then you do need to pay (purchase an
appropriate license -- unless your case can be covered by an academic
license or the like, I guess, but I don't know the details of that).

If you use Blackadder for the development, you can still give away your
sources (they are and remain your property); you just can't give away
executables and libraries that are not your property and that you are
not licensed to redistribute (such as those that come with Blackadder's
Personal edition/license).

Somebody's trying to develop a GPL version of Qt that runs under Windows
(with cygwin, specifically for the purpose of using KDE on cygwin); if
that effort matures (I don't know about its current status), then at
least C++-coded applications running on Windows+cygwin, covered by GPL,
and freely distributed, would become possible. If and when this happens,
then for Python-coded applications to be distributable on the same terms
you will only need a suitable GPL-licensed PyQt (or PyQt with some license
that is at least GPL-compatible, of course).


Alex

[email9898989@yahoo.com]

Re: PyQt, Qt, Windows and Linux

> Trolltech's pricing strategy, for me, keeps me on wxWindows. Qt does[color=blue]
> seem like an excellent product, however.[/color]

I agree.

I guess the simplest explanation is that if you have anything to do
with Windows or if you want to sell your software, you have to pay for
TrollTech's Qt and PyQt (minimum $400 for BlackAdder).

The only way it is free to use it is if you are developing on Linux,
distributing only to Linux users, and not charging for your software.

Here are some technical advantages to Qt/PyQt/PyKDE, but I can still
wouldn't recommend it for Windows development:
- QT Designer is a very nice intuitive visual GUI builder (form
designer). You can progress from a simple prototype to a
cross-platform app easily. You aren't forced to plan the layout in
advance. Then again for most apps it is not hard to just do your
layout in code.
- The QT C++ API is better designed, although that doesn't mean it is
better for Python development (both PyQt and WxPython are basically
thin wrappers for the C++ Qt and wxWindows APIs). Performance or
bug-wise I don't know that PyQt is better than wxPython on Windows.
On Linux, wxPython uses GTK.
- With KParts and KDE applications, you can embed other components
(like a web browser or spreadsheet) into your own app, although PyKDE
does not yet support this. You can do something similar in wxPython
on Windows embedding ActiveX controls (such as Internet Explorer or
Adobe Acrobat Viewer).

[Jim Bublitz]

Re: PyQt, Qt, Windows and Linux

email9898989@ya hoo.com wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Trolltech's pricing strategy, for me, keeps me on wxWindows.
>> Qt does seem like an excellent product, however.[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> I agree.[/color]
[color=blue]
> I guess the simplest explanation is that if you have anything
> to do with Windows or if you want to sell your software, you
> have to pay for TrollTech's Qt and PyQt (minimum $400 for
> BlackAdder).[/color]
[color=blue]
> The only way it is free to use it is if you are developing on
> Linux, distributing only to Linux users, and not charging for
> your software.[/color]

Qt for Linux is GPL'd, so nothing prevents you from selling your
software for Linux - you do have to provide source code though
and can't charge for Qt/PyQt/etc.
[color=blue]
> Here are some technical advantages to Qt/PyQt/PyKDE, but I can
> still wouldn't recommend it for Windows development:
> - QT Designer is a very nice intuitive visual GUI builder (form
> designer). You can progress from a simple prototype to a
> cross-platform app easily. You aren't forced to plan the
> layout in
> advance. Then again for most apps it is not hard to just do
> your layout in code.
> - The QT C++ API is better designed, although that doesn't mean
> it is better for Python development (both PyQt and WxPython are
> basically
> thin wrappers for the C++ Qt and wxWindows APIs). Performance
> or bug-wise I don't know that PyQt is better than wxPython on
> Windows. On Linux, wxPython uses GTK.
> - With KParts and KDE applications, you can embed other
> components (like a web browser or spreadsheet) into your own
> app, although PyKDE does not yet support this.[/color]

PyKDE has been able to import KParts for at least a year. PyKDE
currently doesn't allow you to export (author) KParts in Python,
although the ability to do this is essentially complete and
mostly just needs to be integrated with the PyKDE distribution.
[color=blue]
> You can do something similar in
> wxPython on Windows embedding ActiveX controls (such as
> Internet Explorer or Adobe Acrobat Viewer).[/color]

Jim

[Phil Thompson]

Re: PyQt, Qt, Windows and Linux

On Sunday 16 November 2003 11:46 pm, Jim wrote:[color=blue]
> On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 21:05:06 +0000, Phil Thompson[/color]
<phil@riverbank computing.co.uk > wrotf:[color=blue][color=green]
> >On Sunday 16 November 2003 8:30 pm, Jim wrote:[color=darkred]
> >> On 3 Nov 2003 13:21:56 -0800, codeapocalypse@ msn.com (Brian) wrotf:
> >> >Alex Martelli <aleax@aleax.it > wrote in message news:<KVcpb.399 539$R32.
> >> >
> >> >>Vamsi Mudrageda wrote:
> >> >>> 2) Do I need to buy a license from TrollTech?
> >> >>
> >> >> Yes, or from one of Trolltech's licensed resellers of licenses. The
> >> >> cheapest way you can proceed, I believe, is to buy Blackadder,
> >> >> personal edition, from theKompany.com: it comes with personal-use
> >> >> licenses of PyQt and Qt for both Linux and Windows (I _think_ mac,
> >> >> too, but I don't know about that). I believe it currently costs US
> >> >> $70 .
> >> >
> >> >Note that according to the BlackAdder page at thecompany.com, you must
> >> >purchase the business edition ($400, currently) if you want the right
> >> >to distribute the run-time elements of it. I'm not sure if the OP
> >> >only wanted to distribute an app for use on his own windows box, or
> >> >distribute his application on the net for use by others.
> >> >
> >> >Trolltech's pricing strategy, for me, keeps me on wxWindows. Qt does
> >> >seem like an excellent product, however.
> >>
> >> Could someone please explain this to me. I am still a little confused. I
> >> am just about to buy BlackAdder but want to make sure it will suit my
> >> needs.
> >>
> >> The question I have is this; if I get the Personal Edition, I know I
> >> can't distribute the run-time elements commercially (sell my programs)
> >> but can I in distribute them in a non-commercial way?[/color]
> >
> >No. Personal means personal to you.
> >
> >Phil[/color]
>
> Thanks for the info, Phil. Can you help me out a little more? Honestly, I
> have spent the last 3 days searching the Internet for an answer and can't
> seem figure this out.
>
> One person (I think is was someone from theKompany) said that there was no
> functional difference between the Personal Edition and the Business Edition
> but I think you just told me the opposite. If I buy the Personal Edition
> and use it to write my program, I won't have the capability to run that
> software on any other computer besides my own (personal to me) ... not even
> my wife's computer downstairs, i.e., so the runtime elements don't come
> with the Personal Edition - which makes it functionally different?[/color]

No, the functionality is the same (but is a subset of "normal" PyQt).
[color=blue]
> theKompany web page says the Business Edition is "for commercial use." From
> my understanding, commercial means of or relating to commerce and commerce
> is buying and selling products and I'm not selling anything. This is really
> confusing. I want to honor whatever licence I buy but it doesn't seem
> reasonable that I would have to pay $400 so I can give my own program away
> freely.[/color]

The difference between the two versions is the right to re-distribute the BA
version of PyQt (and the embedded Qt) with your application. With the
Personal Edition you have no such right - so your users must have their own
copy.

The Business Edition gives you the right to re-distribute the BA version of
PyQt. Whether or not you make a charge to your users is entirely up to you.
Note that your users do not have the right to further re-distribute.

Phil

[Jim]

Re: PyQt, Qt, Windows and Linux

>> One person (I think is was someone from theKompany) said that there was no[color=blue][color=green]
>> functional difference between the Personal Edition and the Business Edition
>> but I think you just told me the opposite. If I buy the Personal Edition
>> and use it to write my program, I won't have the capability to run that
>> software on any other computer besides my own (personal to me) ... not even
>> my wife's computer downstairs, i.e., so the runtime elements don't come
>> with the Personal Edition - which makes it functionally different?[/color]
>
>No, the functionality is the same (but is a subset of "normal" PyQt).[/color]

Yikes, what is "normal" PyQt? So the version of PyQt that comes with BlackAdder is just a subset of
"normal" PyQt ... How does one obtain the "normal" version of PyQt and what are the advantages? If
I'm spending money, I want to get it right the first time around ;)

Thanks, Jim

[Phil Thompson]

Re: PyQt, Qt, Windows and Linux

On Monday 17 November 2003 10:21 pm, Jim wrote:[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> One person (I think is was someone from theKompany) said that there was
> >> no functional difference between the Personal Edition and the Business
> >> Edition but I think you just told me the opposite. If I buy the Personal
> >> Edition and use it to write my program, I won't have the capability to
> >> run that software on any other computer besides my own (personal to me)
> >> ... not even my wife's computer downstairs, i.e., so the runtime
> >> elements don't come with the Personal Edition - which makes it
> >> functionally different?[/color]
> >
> >No, the functionality is the same (but is a subset of "normal" PyQt).[/color]
>
> Yikes, what is "normal" PyQt? So the version of PyQt that comes with
> BlackAdder is just a subset of "normal" PyQt ... How does one obtain the
> "normal" version of PyQt and what are the advantages? If I'm spending
> money, I want to get it right the first time around ;)[/color]

"Normal" PyQt is what is available from www.riverbankcomputing.co.uk, either
under the GPL (not for Windows) or a commercial license. It does not include
a copy of Qt - you need to get that separately with an appropriate license.

Functionally BlackAdder PyQt is based on the Professional Edition of Qt (plus
a couple of extras - see theKompany website for details). "Normal" PyQt is
based on the Enterprise Edition (which is the same as the GPL version) plus
QScintilla support.

Phil

[Jim Bublitz]

Re: PyQt, Qt, Windows and Linux

Jim Bublitz wrote:
[color=blue]
> email9898989@ya hoo.com wrote:[/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
>> - With KParts and KDE applications, you can embed other
>> components (like a web browser or spreadsheet) into your own
>> app, although PyKDE does not yet support this.[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> PyKDE has been able to import KParts for at least a year. PyKDE
> currently doesn't allow you to export (author) KParts in
> Python, although the ability to do this is essentially complete
> and mostly just needs to be integrated with the PyKDE
> distribution.[/color]

Following up on my own message, David Boddie has just released
PyKDE addons for doing KParts, KDE Control Center Modules and
KDE IOSlaves (mostly in Python - some .so lib creation may be
required, but I expect David has this simplified quite a bit).

The code (first release, but David does good work) is at:

http://www.boddie.org.uk/david/Projects/Python/KDE/index.html

This will still require installing sip/PyQt/PyKDE but looks like
it will be maintained separate from the normal PyKDE
distribution.

Jim

[Richie Hindle]

Re: PyQt, Qt, Windows and Linux


[Phil][color=blue]
> Functionally BlackAdder PyQt is based on the Professional Edition of Qt (plus
> a couple of extras - see theKompany website for details). "Normal" PyQt is
> based on the Enterprise Edition (which is the same as the GPL version) plus
> QScintilla support.[/color]

So if I buy BlackAdder, I don't get QScintilla? Someone's website, yours
or the Kompany's, should really make that clear (unless I've missed it; I
can't check theirs because it seems to be down at the moment).

Can I add a QScintilla licence to the package, and if so, at what extra
cost on top of the $400 for BlackAdder?

--
Richie Hindle
richie@entrian. com

[John J. Lee]

Re: PyQt, Qt, Windows and Linux

Jim Bublitz <jbublitzno@spa mnwinternet.com > writes:
[color=blue]
> Jim Bublitz wrote:[/color]
[...][color=blue]
> Following up on my own message, David Boddie has just released
> PyKDE addons for doing KParts, KDE Control Center Modules and[/color]
[...][color=blue]
> This will still require installing sip/PyQt/PyKDE but looks like
> it will be maintained separate from the normal PyKDE
> distribution.[/color]

Not *another* package! Qt, sip, PyQt, PyKDE, and now this... (not to
mention Qwt and PyQwt, if you use those). Couldn't you combine the
packages, at least after Paul's package settles down a bit?


John

[Jim Bublitz]

Re: PyQt, Qt, Windows and Linux

John J. Lee wrote:
[color=blue]
> Jim Bublitz <jbublitzno@spa mnwinternet.com > writes:[/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Jim Bublitz wrote:[/color]
> [...][color=green]
>> Following up on my own message, David Boddie has just released
>> PyKDE addons for doing KParts, KDE Control Center Modules and[/color]
> [...][color=green]
>> This will still require installing sip/PyQt/PyKDE but looks
>> like it will be maintained separate from the normal PyKDE
>> distribution.[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> Not *another* package! Qt, sip, PyQt, PyKDE, and now this...
> (not to mention Qwt and PyQwt, if you use those). Couldn't you
> combine the packages, at least after Paul's package settles
> down a bit?[/color]

You left out eric :)

The logic of separating the packages (beyond making them easier
to build) goes like this: sip is a general purpose C++ -> Python
bindings generator and run-time and while it has enhancements
for PyQt, doesn't require PyQt. A lot of people who use PyQt
have no desire to use PyKDE or PyQwt (or PyQt + PyQwt but not
PyKDE). There are a lot of PyQt users running Windows and OSX
support is in place for sip/PyQt 4, which is in pre-release.
Probably most people using PyKDE won't want to write KParts or
other plugin type stuff. PyQt and PyKDE also have fairly long
compile times, or when packaged as binaries, are usually split
into pieces themselves (eg PyQt, PyQt-devel, etc).

The other consideration is that each of the packages is developed
mostly independently and while there is a lot of communication
between us, we all have conflicting goals, schedules and
development styles. Right now the binaries are also produced
independent of the developers as well.

There are probably more packages coming over the next year, too.

Jim

[Rob Gowin]

Re: PyQt, Qt, Windows and Linux

Vamsi Mudrageda <gte181u@prism. gatech.edu> wrote in message news:<bo3jon$gm n$1@news-int2.gatech.edu >...[color=blue]
> I am kind of new to Python, and after trying and using wxPython, I found
> it kind of lacking in easy-to-read documentation, speed at loading, and
> GUI response-time.
>
> So I am looking for an another GUI toolkit that is cross-platform for
> Python, and am leaning toward PyQt (PyGTK is kind of dull looking in
> comparison). Unfortunately, although TrollTech says Qt is
> cross-platform, its license strategy has me a bit confused. So here is
> to hoping someone can help...
>
> Objective:
> Develop/Write a program for personal use on my Linux using PyQt. Be
> able to also run it on Windows.
>
> Questions:
> 1) Is it legally possible to do that?
> 2) Do I need to buy a license from TrollTech?
> 3) Can I create a .exe file for my windows on my Linux and copy it over?
> (I would like to develop the program entirely on Linux, but make
> executables for other platforms).
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated. If you guys have another GUI
> toolkit for python, then please by all means...
>
> Thx.[/color]


Vamsi,

It looks like a less expensive way to develop non commercial Qt 3
programs for Windows may be coming soon.

The "official" Qt3 book is due in February of 2004, and the
included CD will include a non-commerical version of Qt 3.2.1
for Windows (and GPL versions for Linux and Mac). The
book will be $50. Here is a link to the announcement in
the qt-interest mailing list:

http://lists.trolltech.com/qt-interest/2003-10/thread01344-0.html

From other discussion on the mailing list, it appears that
you will be able to distribute the Qt runtime DLLs with
your non commerical application if you buy the book.
Here's the mailing list thread for that (see message 13
in particular):

http://lists.trolltech.com/qt-interest/2003-11/thread00225-0.html

Of course, I have no idea what the relationship between this
non-commercial version of Qt and PyQt will be.


Rob

Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with Trolltech (except as a
commerical licensee of the Linux and Mac versions) or the
authors or publishers of the book.

[Phil Thompson]

Re: PyQt, Qt, Windows and Linux

On Tuesday 18 November 2003 9:54 am, Richie Hindle wrote:[color=blue]
> [Phil]
>[color=green]
> > Functionally BlackAdder PyQt is based on the Professional Edition of Qt
> > (plus a couple of extras - see theKompany website for details). "Normal"
> > PyQt is based on the Enterprise Edition (which is the same as the GPL
> > version) plus QScintilla support.[/color]
>
> So if I buy BlackAdder, I don't get QScintilla? Someone's website, yours
> or the Kompany's, should really make that clear (unless I've missed it; I
> can't check theirs because it seems to be down at the moment).[/color]

theKompany website makes it fairly clear what's included. Obviously it doesn't
document what's not included ;-)
[color=blue]
> Can I add a QScintilla licence to the package, and if so, at what extra
> cost on top of the $400 for BlackAdder?[/color]

No.

Phil

[email9898989@yahoo.com]

Re: PyQt, Qt, Windows and Linux

Jim Bublitz <jbublitzno@spa mnwinternet.com > wrote in message news:<fF8ub.537 9$7h1.160744872 0@twister2.star band.net>...[color=blue][color=green]
> > I guess the simplest explanation is that if you have anything
> > to do with Windows or if you want to sell your software, you
> > have to pay for TrollTech's Qt and PyQt (minimum $400 for
> > BlackAdder).[/color]
>[color=green]
> > The only way it is free to use it is if you are developing on
> > Linux, distributing only to Linux users, and not charging for
> > your software.[/color]
>
> Qt for Linux is GPL'd, so nothing prevents you from selling your
> software for Linux - you do have to provide source code though
> and can't charge for Qt/PyQt/etc.[/color]

Sorry I wasn't crystal clear. If you plan to develop commercial
software on any platform, you have to pay for Qt. I was trying to
make their pricing schemes more easy for people to understand.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > - With KParts and KDE applications, you can embed other
> > components (like a web browser or spreadsheet) into your own
> > app, although PyKDE does not yet support this.[/color]
>
> PyKDE has been able to import KParts for at least a year. PyKDE
> currently doesn't allow you to export (author) KParts in Python,
> although the ability to do this is essentially complete and
> mostly just needs to be integrated with the PyKDE distribution.[/color]

I know, I was meaning create KParts. The point is that PyQt & PyKDE
can do on Linux everything wxPython can do on Windows, and more (using
Qt Designer, and soon creating KParts with PyQt).
But if you want to develop for both platforms, you can either use
wxPython for free, but it uses GTK on Linux instead of Qt, or pay for
Qt on Windows, the commercial version of which can embed ActiveX
controls on Windows too.

[Richie Hindle]

Re: PyQt, Qt, Windows and Linux


[Rob][color=blue]
> The "official" Qt3 book is due in February of 2004, and the
> included CD will include a non-commerical version of Qt 3.2.1
> for Windows [...] it appears that you will be able to distribute
> the Qt runtime DLLs with your non commerical application [...][/color]

This is great news for people who want to develop free Windows software
with Qt. Phil, do you yet know whether PyQt Non-Commercial will support
this version of Qt?

--
Richie Hindle
richie@entrian. com

[email9898989@yahoo.com]

This is getting ridiculous (Re: PyQt, Qt, Windows and Linux)

> The "official" Qt3 book is due in February of 2004, and the[color=blue]
> included CD will include a non-commerical version of Qt 3.2.1
> for Windows [...] it appears that you will be able to distribute
> the Qt runtime DLLs with your non commerical application [...][/color]

So if I just want to make free software that works cross-platform, I'd
have to buy this crappy C++ book to get a special restricted version
of Qt3 for Windows that may or may not work with Python. This is
ridiculous.