Postgress and MYSQL

**Martin Marques** · Nov 22 '05, 04:24 AM

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

Mensaje citado por "Keith C. Perry" <netadmin@vcsn. com>:
[color=blue]
>
> 3) Not being able to "find" something in via search BEFORE even reading the
> documentation is somewhat backwards. You have to at least get a feel for
> the docs before even know what to look for. That is not to say that the
> search engine is not problematic but it is to say that I'm am more and
> more
> convinced that knowing how to search more important than what is being
> searched for.[/color]

I am totally against this kind of believes.
Personally, I think that one of the most important caracteristics a book should
have is a VERY GOOD INDEX. This makes the searching easier.
I can remember starting with Informix, about 4 years ago, and I can say that
even not being excelent manuals the index really helped me and made me save
lots of time when trying to find a determinated information.
[color=blue]
> BTW, I've asked this before but where are the 7.4 docs in PS or PDF format?
> If
> any one needs or wants them, I do have the 7.3.2-US books (admin, user,
> programmer & reference) in PS with the duplexing code. They all fit nicely
> in a
> 3" ring binder and will compliment any bookshelf :)[/color]

I had the 7.1 printed. Read most of it when my wife was in the hospital having
my daughter, and I had to stay there 2 days. :-)

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---------------------------------------------------------
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**Alvaro Herrera** · Nov 22 '05, 04:24 AM

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

On Wed, Jan 14, 2004 at 09:29:32PM -0300, Martin Marques wrote:[color=blue]
> Mensaje citado por "Keith C. Perry" <netadmin@vcsn. com>:
>[color=green]
> >
> > 3) Not being able to "find" something in via search BEFORE even reading the
> > documentation is somewhat backwards. You have to at least get a feel for
> > the docs before even know what to look for. That is not to say that the
> > search engine is not problematic but it is to say that I'm am more and
> > more
> > convinced that knowing how to search more important than what is being
> > searched for.[/color]
>
> I am totally against this kind of believes.
> Personally, I think that one of the most important caracteristics a book should
> have is a VERY GOOD INDEX. This makes the searching easier.[/color]

But the PG docs _have_ good indexes! (Much better than other docs for
open source projects I have seen.) I for one have always found what I
was looking for. Searching in a full text engine is a different matter
and I agree it is lousy (maybe that's the reason I don't use it
anymore).

[color=blue]
> I had the 7.1 printed. Read most of it when my wife was in the hospital having
> my daughter, and I had to stay there 2 days. :-)[/color]

Go figure. Maybe I'll start thinking about children so I can have a
spare time to read documentation ... or maybe not ;-)

--
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"I think my standards have lowered enough that now I think 'good design'
is when the page doesn't irritate the living f*ck out of me." (JWZ)

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**Martin Marques** · Nov 22 '05, 04:24 AM

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

Mensaje citado por Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@dcc.u chile.cl>:
[color=blue]
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2004 at 09:29:32PM -0300, Martin Marques wrote:[color=green]
> >
> > I am totally against this kind of believes.
> > Personally, I think that one of the most important caracteristics a book[/color]
> should[color=green]
> > have is a VERY GOOD INDEX. This makes the searching easier.[/color]
>
> But the PG docs _have_ good indexes! (Much better than other docs for
> open source projects I have seen.) I for one have always found what I
> was looking for. Searching in a full text engine is a different matter
> and I agree it is lousy (maybe that's the reason I don't use it
> anymore).[/color]

CAST wasn't there. :-)
Any way, as I stated before, I find PG docs to be very good. But I know that they
can be even better, so that is what I'm aiming at.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > I had the 7.1 printed. Read most of it when my wife was in the hospital having
> > my daughter, and I had to stay there 2 days. :-)[/color]
>
> Go figure. Maybe I'll start thinking about children so I can have a
> spare time to read documentation ... or maybe not ;-)[/color]

No Alvaro! I had does two days to read. Since then I have had lots of less time for
relaxing with a book. :-)

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**Bret Busby** · Nov 22 '05, 04:24 AM

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Matt Davies wrote:
[color=blue]
>
> Acceptance of PG could be greatly accelerated by more:
> 1. small projects using PG as a backend (as stated in previous thread post)
> 2. documenation coming from multiple sources. Don't ask me to explain why, but
> one seems to equate robustness, usability, etc... with the more titles one
> sees. If you go to Barnes and Noble's and look there for DB books you see the
> wall of red (Oracle books), black (M$oft), blue (MySQL). I simply point out
> that perception being as it is - PG is not there. I am trying to learn more and
> more about it to remedy my newcomer understanding of PG. Do not read this as if
> I am a newbie to DB's; I am not ignorant.
>[/color]

I have just gone to www.barnesandnoble.com , and, searched on
postgresql, and got 13 results - including the famous and
previously mentioned "Teach Yourself PostgreSQL in 21 Days", by Chris
Smith, published in December 2002!

:)

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
...............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992
............... ............... ............... ........

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**Chris Travers** · Nov 22 '05, 04:24 AM

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

From: "Keith C. Perry" <netadmin@vcsn. com>
[color=blue]
> 3) Not being able to "find" something in via search BEFORE even reading[/color]
the[color=blue]
> documentation is somewhat backwards. You have to at least get a feel[/color]
for[color=blue]
> the docs before even know what to look for. That is not to say that[/color]
the[color=blue]
> search engine is not problematic but it is to say that I'm am more and[/color]
more[color=blue]
> convinced that knowing how to search more important than what is being
> searched for.[/color]

Well put, and I like the other posts about the usefullness of a really good
index. However, I think that there is an attitude that MySQL docs are
better for beginners because the search really takes the place of the index.
However, IMO, this masks a more subtle issue, see below.[color=blue]
>
> 4) As many people pointed out before, a product should not be technical
> education it should product education. Some people take it as being[/color]
rude[color=blue]
> we some on-list says use google or check <some other site>. Granted
> being told "this is not hand holding" is definitely a slap in the face[/color]
its[color=blue]
> been done to me and I'm sure there is a better way to put it but the
> reality is that PG docs are very good. Get some paper and print
> they out double-sided- they're an excellent reference. However, you[/color]
have to[color=blue]
> understand the basics first and that simply does not belong on the PG
> site (save a link to some community recommendations ).
>[/color]
I agree to a point, in that the PostgreSQL product documentation is product
education, not general database education. However, the "community
recommended links" approach has a number of difficiencies that I don't think
have been discussed much:

1: Community maintained lists of links seems the easy way to go until those
links become broken or change and need to be removed due to inaccurate
content. It may be easier over the long term to maintain our own technical
education database that we have control over.

2: You DO have a problem that PostgreSQL as a product assumes more general
knowledge than MySQL. The docs tend to assume you know stuff, and it would
be nice to have community maintained references on these general topics,
perhaps on techdocs, perhaps elsewhere.

3: MySQL is a database engine which seems to make sense UNTIL you are
technically educated. Competing with MySQL may mean being able to
articulate why ACID complience is important, for example. Or why the
database should abort the operation/transaction rather than truncate your
data in a NUMERIC column.

So what is the alternative? I am working on some documentation but my work
is slowed by my laptop being in the shop. Perhaps we could have a technical
education category in Techdocs?

Best Wishes,
Chris Travers

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**Chris Travers** · Nov 22 '05, 04:24 AM

Mailing list? was Postgress and MYSQL

From: "Jonathan Bartlett" <johnnyb@eskimo .com>[color=blue]
> We need a Postgres vs MySQL Mailing list :)[/color]

you are going to laugh but I don't think that this is such a bad idea,
provided that it is not limited to Postgres vs MySQL. Advocacy is good and
all, but they are more interested in promoting PostgreSQL than discussing
competitive issues. In fact, the general list seems to be dedicated to only
2 things:
support of all types and
PostgreSQL vs MySQL.

I would suggest that we consider forming a pgsql-competitive email list for
discussing PostgreSQL and how it compares with other database managers. We
could then send out documents, etc. to other lists (general, advocacy, etc.)
for more general consideration.

We could then look at comparisons regarding Oracle, MySQL, MS SQL, etc.
without cluttering this list or the Advocacy list with material that tends
to be... voluminous but disorganized.

The list could also serve as a place for consultants to go if they want
competitive information relating to other products.

Best Wishes,
Chris Travers

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**Uwe C. Schroeder** · Nov 22 '05, 04:24 AM

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wednesday 14 January 2004 10:18 pm, Chris Travers wrote:[color=blue]
> From: "Keith C. Perry" <netadmin@vcsn. com>
>[color=green]
> > 3) Not being able to "find" something in via search BEFORE even reading[/color]
>
> the
>[color=green]
> > documentation is somewhat backwards. You have to at least get a feel[/color]
>
> for
>[color=green]
> > the docs before even know what to look for. That is not to say that[/color]
>
> the
>[color=green]
> > search engine is not problematic but it is to say that I'm am more and[/color]
>
> more
>[color=green]
> > convinced that knowing how to search more important than what is being
> > searched for.[/color]
>
> Well put, and I like the other posts about the usefullness of a really good
> index. However, I think that there is an attitude that MySQL docs are
> better for beginners because the search really takes the place of the
> index. However, IMO, this masks a more subtle issue, see below.
>[color=green]
> > 4) As many people pointed out before, a product should not be technical
> > education it should product education. Some people take it as being[/color]
>
> rude
>[color=green]
> > we some on-list says use google or check <some other site>. Granted
> > being told "this is not hand holding" is definitely a slap in the face[/color]
>
> its
>[color=green]
> > been done to me and I'm sure there is a better way to put it but the
> > reality is that PG docs are very good. Get some paper and print
> > they out double-sided- they're an excellent reference. However, you[/color]
>
> have to
>[color=green]
> > understand the basics first and that simply does not belong on the PG
> > site (save a link to some community recommendations ).[/color]
>
> I agree to a point, in that the PostgreSQL product documentation is product
> education, not general database education. However, the "community
> recommended links" approach has a number of difficiencies that I don't
> think have been discussed much:
>
> 1: Community maintained lists of links seems the easy way to go until
> those links become broken or change and need to be removed due to
> inaccurate content. It may be easier over the long term to maintain our
> own technical education database that we have control over.
>
> 2: You DO have a problem that PostgreSQL as a product assumes more general
> knowledge than MySQL. The docs tend to assume you know stuff, and it would
> be nice to have community maintained references on these general topics,
> perhaps on techdocs, perhaps elsewhere.
>
> 3: MySQL is a database engine which seems to make sense UNTIL you are
> technically educated. Competing with MySQL may mean being able to
> articulate why ACID complience is important, for example. Or why the
> database should abort the operation/transaction rather than truncate your
> data in a NUMERIC column.
>
> So what is the alternative? I am working on some documentation but my work
> is slowed by my laptop being in the shop. Perhaps we could have a
> technical education category in Techdocs?
>
> Best Wishes,
> Chris Travers[/color]

Basically it's a question of what product to compare postgresql with. If you
target the DB2 / Oracle / Sybase corner I don't think a lot of those admins
have a problem getting used to postgresql.
But looking around on the net and in paper publications makes it obvious that
postgresql is mostly compared to mysql - both being "open source" (well, to
some degree :-)) )
Coming from the classic DB systems around I found it much easier to use
postgresql than to use mysql - things like transactions always were a given
fact for me, so I was utterly surprised not being able to set an isolation
level in mysql.
Having the usual comparison in mind I agree with Chris that at least a link
collection to sources that educate the "average ms-access user" about basic
database concepts might prove very useful - even if people won't read it, but
at least it's much easier to point them to the right place instead of
repeating the same things over and over again.

My $0.01 <- only one cent here - need the other one for another email :-)

UC

- --
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Phone: +1 650 872 2425 San Bruno, CA 94066
Cell: +1 650 302 2405 United States
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**Keith C. Perry** · Nov 22 '05, 04:24 AM

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

Quoting "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprom pt.com>:
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> >Look I love postgresql, but reality is reality. The database itself is
> >great, the documentation is pretty good, but a lot of the other things[/color]
> about[color=green]
> >postgresql (like the website) need a lot of work. Postgresql gives the
> >impression of being a second rate disorganized product if you were to just
> >go by the website alone.
> >[/color]
> Isn't that true of just about any OSS project? Heck, Linux doesn't even
> have a website ;).
> MySQL is not an OSS project, it is an OSS product with a commercial
> company backing
> it. There is a big difference.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Joshua D. Drake[/color]

You're kidding me...

linux.org
linux.com (ewwww, way to cluttered these days)
linuxhq.org
linuxhq.com (looks like their undergoing a facelift)

I seem to remember someone saying that PG is supposed to be leaning towards
being more like a "kernel" so I would like one day the site might become
conceptually like linux.org in the sense that they point you toward the various
distributions of Linux.

Comments?

--
Keith C. Perry, MS E.E.
Director of Networks & Applications
VCSN, Inc.

http://vcsn.com

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**Oleg Bartunov** · Nov 22 '05, 04:24 AM

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Rick Gigger wrote:
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > >Does anyone have any experience with postgers full text search?
> > >[/color]
> > It works well but it is my understanding that our docs search doesn't
> > use PostgreSQL
> > and TSearch. It uses PostgreSQL monogo search or something like that.[/color]
>
> That's good to hear. What is monogo and is it the problem here? Why don't
> it use TSearch if it is better? Is it just a matter of someone taking the
> time to set it up?
>[/color]

I don't understand also, why not use tsearch2 for searching postgresql
documentation. All docs contains about 10-20 K unique words !
Searching arhives is another story and we're working on it on www.pgsql.ru
btw, have you seen it ?
[color=blue]
>
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>[/color]

Regards,
Oleg
_______________ _______________ _______________ _______________ _
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
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**Oleg Bartunov** · Nov 22 '05, 04:25 AM

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> >That's good to hear. What is monogo and is it the problem here? Why don't
> >it use TSearch if it is better? Is it just a matter of someone taking the
> >time to set it up?
> >
> >[/color]
> It is a little more complicated than that. Monogo or whatever it is
> called is more
> like a web spider that uses postgresql. Thus we can search the entire
> postgresql
> website. Tsearch is more about text search within PostgreSQL so we would
> have
> to load the books etc... into the database. That is not as easy as it
> sounds.[/color]

Then use OpenFTS if you prefer to store documents outside of database.
I don't see any problem to develop separate search on official postgres
documentations.
[color=blue]
>
> Also if you are looking for something very cool... check out www.pgsql.ru
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Joshua D. Drake
>
>[/color]

Regards,
Oleg
_______________ _______________ _______________ _______________ _
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83

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**Marc G. Fournier** · Nov 22 '05, 04:25 AM

Re: Mailing list? was Postgress and MYSQL

why not use pgsql-chat, which isn't being used at all right now ... ?

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004, Chris Travers wrote:
[color=blue]
> From: "Jonathan Bartlett" <johnnyb@eskimo .com>[color=green]
> > We need a Postgres vs MySQL Mailing list :)[/color]
>
> you are going to laugh but I don't think that this is such a bad idea,
> provided that it is not limited to Postgres vs MySQL. Advocacy is good and
> all, but they are more interested in promoting PostgreSQL than discussing
> competitive issues. In fact, the general list seems to be dedicated to only
> 2 things:
> support of all types and
> PostgreSQL vs MySQL.
>
> I would suggest that we consider forming a pgsql-competitive email list for
> discussing PostgreSQL and how it compares with other database managers. We
> could then send out documents, etc. to other lists (general, advocacy, etc.)
> for more general consideration.
>
> We could then look at comparisons regarding Oracle, MySQL, MS SQL, etc.
> without cluttering this list or the Advocacy list with material that tends
> to be... voluminous but disorganized.
>
> The list could also serve as a place for consultants to go if they want
> competitive information relating to other products.
>
> Best Wishes,
> Chris Travers
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
>[/color]

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

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**Joshua D. Drake** · Nov 22 '05, 04:25 AM

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

[color=blue]
>You're kidding me...
>
>
>[/color]
No I am not... You missed the point, there is no official Linux website.
Linux.org is ran by one guy,
linux.com is run by VA (I actually used to have poet@linux.com), I own
Linuxdoc.org and Linuxdoc.com...
The closest you get to a "linux" website is kernel.org.
Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake
[color=blue]
>linux.org
>linux.com (ewwww, way to cluttered these days)
>linuxhq.org
>linuxhq.com (looks like their undergoing a facelift)
>
>
>I seem to remember someone saying that PG is supposed to be leaning towards
>being more like a "kernel" so I would like one day the site might become
>conceptually like linux.org in the sense that they point you toward the various
>distribution s of Linux.
>
>Comments?
>
>
>[/color]

--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandpromp t.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
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**Francois Suter** · Nov 22 '05, 04:25 AM

Re: Mailing list? was Postgress and MYSQL

> why not use pgsql-chat, which isn't being used at all right now ... ?[color=blue][color=green]
>>
>> I would suggest that we consider forming a pgsql-competitive email
>> list for[/color][/color]

Whatever, but using another mailing is definitely an excellent idea. I
actually stopped reading -general recently because it got bogged down
in yet another PostgreSQL vs MySQL debate. And the same happens to
advocacy too, although less frequently.

Then again this means that whoever moderates -general (is that you
Marc?) would have to move PostgreSQL vs MySQL threads to the other
mailing list whenever they crop up, otherwise any benefits will be
lost.

Cheers.

---------------
Francois

Home page: http://www.monpetitcoin.com/

"Would Descartes have programmed in Pascal?" - Umberto Eco

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**Csaba Nagy** · Nov 22 '05, 04:25 AM

Re: Mailing list? was Postgress and MYSQL

Hi all,

I have the impression that these "Postgres vs MySQL vs XXX" stuff is
regularly started up by newcomers to this list. So wherever you will
decide to move it, it will still pop up here - the new-comers will know
nothing about being elsewhere, except it is called something very-very
suggestive, like "postgres-mysql-compare".
Even then, it will pop up here too, and it carries the risk of heated
answers even from long term subscribers. Could this be really moderated
?
If there is to be a new list, please name it very-very suggestively,
otherwise it has no point.

Cheers,
Csaba.

On Thu, 2004-01-15 at 16:14, Marc G. Fournier wrote:[color=blue]
> why not use pgsql-chat, which isn't being used at all right now ... ?
>
> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004, Chris Travers wrote:
>[color=green]
> > From: "Jonathan Bartlett" <johnnyb@eskimo .com>[color=darkred]
> > > We need a Postgres vs MySQL Mailing list :)[/color]
> >
> > you are going to laugh but I don't think that this is such a bad idea,
> > provided that it is not limited to Postgres vs MySQL. Advocacy is good and
> > all, but they are more interested in promoting PostgreSQL than discussing
> > competitive issues. In fact, the general list seems to be dedicated to only
> > 2 things:
> > support of all types and
> > PostgreSQL vs MySQL.
> >
> > I would suggest that we consider forming a pgsql-competitive email list for
> > discussing PostgreSQL and how it compares with other database managers. We
> > could then send out documents, etc. to other lists (general, advocacy, etc.)
> > for more general consideration.
> >
> > We could then look at comparisons regarding Oracle, MySQL, MS SQL, etc.
> > without cluttering this list or the Advocacy list with material that tends
> > to be... voluminous but disorganized.
> >
> > The list could also serve as a place for consultants to go if they want
> > competitive information relating to other products.
> >
> > Best Wishes,
> > Chris Travers
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
> >[/color]
>
> ----
> Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
> Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
>
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**Tom Lane** · Nov 22 '05, 04:25 AM

Re: Mailing list? was Postgress and MYSQL

Csaba Nagy <nagy@ecircle-ag.com> writes:[color=blue]
> On Thu, 2004-01-15 at 16:14, Marc G. Fournier wrote:[color=green]
>> why not use pgsql-chat, which isn't being used at all right now ... ?[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> I have the impression that these "Postgres vs MySQL vs XXX" stuff is
> regularly started up by newcomers to this list. So wherever you will
> decide to move it, it will still pop up here - the new-comers will know
> nothing about being elsewhere, except it is called something very-very
> suggestive, like "postgres-mysql-compare".
> Even then, it will pop up here too, and it carries the risk of heated
> answers even from long term subscribers. Could this be really moderated
> ?
> If there is to be a new list, please name it very-very suggestively,
> otherwise it has no point.[/color]

I think this analysis is dead-on. Pointing to pgsql-chat won't
accomplish anything.

regards, tom lane

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