Postgress and MYSQL

[Joshua D. Drake]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

[color=blue]
>That's good to hear. What is monogo and is it the problem here? Why don't
>it use TSearch if it is better? Is it just a matter of someone taking the
>time to set it up?
>
>[/color]
It is a little more complicated than that. Monogo or whatever it is
called is more
like a web spider that uses postgresql. Thus we can search the entire
postgresql
website. Tsearch is more about text search within PostgreSQL so we would
have
to load the books etc... into the database. That is not as easy as it
sounds.

Also if you are looking for something very cool... check out www.pgsql.ru

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
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[Jonathan Bartlett]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

> Imagine this: more users, more installations, more (selective) development[color=blue]
> fingers. Not all users are rocket scientists, but the video game rule applies
> to many: if I can't get it going in X (user preference) minutes then it isn't
> worth the trouble. Should PG be limited to only those who are hard core DB
> users? If so, I don't think PG will take off as fast.[/color]

We need a Postgres vs MySQL Mailing list :)

Honestly PG is easy to get up and running on several distributions. On
RH, service postgres start willgive you a running Postgres (it will do an
initdb if needed). Now just create a user and get going.

PG is only hard because people _think_ it's going to be hard. Or because
it used to be hard. However, it hasn't been hard for a long time.

I also don't think "how fast will this take off" is necesarily a good
design requirement.

Jon



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[Martin Marques]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

Mensaje citado por Rick Gigger <rick@alpinenet working.com>:
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > >Does anyone have any experience with postgers full text search?
> > >[/color]
> > It works well but it is my understanding that our docs search doesn't
> > use PostgreSQL
> > and TSearch. It uses PostgreSQL monogo search or something like that.[/color]
>
> That's good to hear. What is monogo and is it the problem here? Why don't
> it use TSearch if it is better? Is it just a matter of someone taking the
> time to set it up?[/color]

http://www.mnogosearch.com/

Aparently the problem is that this application is already written (I'm talking
about the presentation and buisness layers).

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[Chris Ochs]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL


Personally I don't think it's installing/running the database server that
people have problems with. I used postgresql about 5 years ago and am now
switching back to it from sapdb. I have also used mysql and oracle.

The problems I have had with postgresql is the websites. The website does
very little to make an impression on new users, or to showcase the features
that are available to someone that doesn't know anything about postgresql.
It's difficult to find information, and too much information is outdated
which makes you question everything else. I still am not sure what
replication options are available because of all the conflicting information
that is posted on the various websites (gborg, pgsql.com, postgresql.org,
etc..).

Look I love postgresql, but reality is reality. The database itself is
great, the documentation is pretty good, but a lot of the other things about
postgresql (like the website) need a lot of work. Postgresql gives the
impression of being a second rate disorganized product if you were to just
go by the website alone. Now of course that is not true, but perception
governs people's actions and behavior. If people think postgresql is
difficult, guess what, for all intents and purposes it is. If that
perception leads them to use mysql instead of postgresql, then at some point
you have to face the fact that it's the perceptions that are really
important, regardless of the facts.

Chris


[color=blue]
>
> Honestly PG is easy to get up and running on several distributions. On
> RH, service postgres start willgive you a running Postgres (it will do an
> initdb if needed). Now just create a user and get going.
>
> PG is only hard because people _think_ it's going to be hard. Or because
> it used to be hard. However, it hasn't been hard for a long time.
>
>[/color]


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[Keith C. Perry]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

Quoting Rick Gigger <rick@alpinenet working.com>:
[color=blue][color=green]
> > On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >[color=darkred]
> > > Not to mention that PostgreSQL.Org has some of the most complete
> > > documentation
> > > of any software out there.[/color]
> >
> > Yes, I don't understand why people seem to keep complaining about
> > Postgres' documentation - it is by far the best reference documentation
> > I've ever come across.
> >
> > Maybe it's that there isn't much tutorial content in the documentation -
> > for somebody trying to learn how to do SQL in the first place, it's not
> > going to hold your hand and I could see how that will turn off newbies.[/color]
>
> I used to have that complaint until I got more aquainted with the docs.
> When I used to use mysql I found that if I used search feature on their docs
> I could find exactly what I was looking for almost immediately. When I use
> the postgres doc search feature I don't get the same experience. It is
> slow, sometimes doesn't work and rarely gives me what I am looking for.
> Then I just started using google to search the docs and realized that just
> looking at the TOC is usually good enough and that the postgres docs are
> actually excellent. My bad experience with search, as well as the good
> experience with mysql search (do other people feel this way) however led me
> initially to conclude that the postgres docs were not as good.
>
>
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>[/color]

That is something we can't seem to get across the new folks who think that they
can come from MySQL and move to PostgreSQL. I don't know why- I've heard people
say it because they are both open source, I heard (new) people say that they
should have to read the docs first, the reasons go on and on. What I do know is:

1) Comparing MySQL to PostgreSQL is not a valid technical discussion They're
different products.

2) Assuming the way MySQL does is correct is also invalid. What MySQL does for
MySQL works for them. Over time and with and open mind, I saw that even back
in the 6.x days that PostgreSQL was going to be a more robust product
and as such I had to not only learn PG but I also had to learn more about
relational theory and SQL. I was initially put off too (I remember all my
engineering buddies and I cracking jokes about those "database people") but
at the time, my DB experience was Dbase, Filemaker Pro and Foxpro. I mean
really... *laff*

3) Not being able to "find" something in via search BEFORE even reading the
documentation is somewhat backwards. You have to at least get a feel for
the docs before even know what to look for. That is not to say that the
search engine is not problematic but it is to say that I'm am more and more
convinced that knowing how to search more important than what is being
searched for.

4) As many people pointed out before, a product should not be technical
education it should product education. Some people take it as being rude
we some on-list says use google or check <some other site>. Granted
being told "this is not hand holding" is definitely a slap in the face its
been done to me and I'm sure there is a better way to put it but the
reality is that PG docs are very good. Get some paper and print
they out double-sided- they're an excellent reference. However, you have to
understand the basics first and that simply does not belong on the PG
site (save a link to some community recommendations ).


BTW, I've asked this before but where are the 7.4 docs in PS or PDF format? If
any one needs or wants them, I do have the 7.3.2-US books (admin, user,
programmer & reference) in PS with the duplexing code. They all fit nicely in a
3" ring binder and will compliment any bookshelf :)

--
Keith C. Perry, MS E.E.
Director of Networks & Applications
VCSN, Inc.

http://vcsn.com

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[scott.marlowe]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Rick Gigger wrote:
[color=blue]
> Does anyone have any experience with postgers full text search?[/color]

I just put the docs on my apache server and hit them with htdig or
mnogosearch.


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[Keith C. Perry]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

Quoting "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprom pt.com>:
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> >That's good to hear. What is monogo and is it the problem here? Why don't
> >it use TSearch if it is better? Is it just a matter of someone taking the
> >time to set it up?
> >
> >[/color]
> It is a little more complicated than that. Monogo or whatever it is
> called is more
> like a web spider that uses postgresql. Thus we can search the entire
> postgresql
> website. Tsearch is more about text search within PostgreSQL so we would
> have
> to load the books etc... into the database. That is not as easy as it
> sounds.
>
> Also if you are looking for something very cool... check out www.pgsql.ru
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Joshua D. Drake
>
> --
> Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
> Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
> +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandpromp t.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
> Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL
>
>
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> TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
> subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postg resql.org so that your
> message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
>[/color]

I thought Marc optimized the search last week when this same thread was being
discussed?

Marc?

--
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Director of Networks & Applications
VCSN, Inc.

http://vcsn.com

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[Joshua D. Drake]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

[color=blue]
>
>BTW, I've asked this before but where are the 7.4 docs in PS or PDF format? If
>
>[/color]

They are being worked on ;)
[color=blue]
>any one needs or wants them, I do have the 7.3.2-US books (admin, user,
>programmer & reference) in PS with the duplexing code. They all fit nicely in a
>3" ring binder and will compliment any bookshelf :)
>
>
>[/color]


--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandpromp t.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
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[Joshua D. Drake]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

[color=blue]
>Look I love postgresql, but reality is reality. The database itself is
>great, the documentation is pretty good, but a lot of the other things about
>postgresql (like the website) need a lot of work. Postgresql gives the
>impression of being a second rate disorganized product if you were to just
>go by the website alone.
>[/color]
Isn't that true of just about any OSS project? Heck, Linux doesn't even
have a website ;).
MySQL is not an OSS project, it is an OSS product with a commercial
company backing
it. There is a big difference.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake



[color=blue]
> Now of course that is not true, but perception
>governs people's actions and behavior. If people think postgresql is
>difficult, guess what, for all intents and purposes it is. If that
>perception leads them to use mysql instead of postgresql, then at some point
>you have to face the fact that it's the perceptions that are really
>important, regardless of the facts.
>
>Chris
>
>
>
>
>[color=green]
>>Honestly PG is easy to get up and running on several distributions. On
>>RH, service postgres start willgive you a running Postgres (it will do an
>>initdb if needed). Now just create a user and get going.
>>
>>PG is only hard because people _think_ it's going to be hard. Or because
>>it used to be hard. However, it hasn't been hard for a long time.
>>
>>
>>
>>[/color]
>
>
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>
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>
>[/color]


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Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
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[Peter Eisentraut]

Re: Documentation search (Was: Postgress and MYSQL)

Martin Marques wrote:[color=blue]
> Not really. I just tried to look in the docs for the explicit for of
> a CAST (really trying to find the link to send someone), and I just
> couldn't find it. I know it's somewhere there, as I have read it
> before, but not even the search engine installed in the interactive
> docs seem to find that doc.[/color]

If you want to find something in the documentation, there's an index at
the end of it. I realize now that there's no entry for CAST, which I
will fix. But if you find more terms that you would like to see in the
index, write to pgsql-docs.


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[Chris Ochs]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

Yes I didn't really want to get into that at the moment, but that is THE
main difference....

That said, there are number of OSS projects that have very nice websites,
and it wouldn't be that much work to clean up the postgresql site a bit.
I'm not talking about a ton of new content, just a simple, clean layout for
the front page that's easier to use. I might even do a template myself and
send it to the list if I can get the time.

Chris
[color=blue][color=green]
> >[/color]
> Isn't that true of just about any OSS project? Heck, Linux doesn't even
> have a website ;).
> MySQL is not an OSS project, it is an OSS product with a commercial
> company backing
> it. There is a big difference.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Joshua D. Drake
>
>
>
>[color=green]
> > Now of course that is not true, but perception
> >governs people's actions and behavior. If people think postgresql is
> >difficult, guess what, for all intents and purposes it is. If that
> >perception leads them to use mysql instead of postgresql, then at some[/color][/color]
point[color=blue][color=green]
> >you have to face the fact that it's the perceptions that are really
> >important, regardless of the facts.
> >
> >Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >[color=darkred]
> >>Honestly PG is easy to get up and running on several distributions. On
> >>RH, service postgres start willgive you a running Postgres (it will do[/color][/color][/color]
an[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>initdb if needed). Now just create a user and get going.
> >>
> >>PG is only hard because people _think_ it's going to be hard. Or[/color][/color][/color]
because[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>it used to be hard. However, it hasn't been hard for a long time.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>[/color]
> >
> >
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> >
> > http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
> >
> >[/color]
>
>
> --
> Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
> Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
> +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandpromp t.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
> Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL
>
>[/color]


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[Joshua D. Drake]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

[color=blue]
>I'm not talking about a ton of new content, just a simple, clean layout for
>the front page that's easier to use. I might even do a template myself and
>send it to the list if I can get the time.
>
>
>[/color]
Well before you do that, you might want to look at pgsql-advocacy and
pgsql-www. There
are some arguments going on right now about that very subject :)

Sincerely,


Joshua D. Drake


[color=blue]
>Chris
>
>[/color]


--
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[Christopher Browne]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

jd@commandpromp t.com ("Joshua D. Drake") writes:[color=blue][color=green]
>>BTW, I've asked this before but where are the 7.4 docs in PS or PDF format? If
>>[/color]
>
> They are being worked on ;)
>[color=green]
>>any one needs or wants them, I do have the 7.3.2-US books (admin, user,
>>programmer & reference) in PS with the duplexing code. They all fit nicely in a
>>3" ring binder and will compliment any bookshelf :)[/color][/color]

Quick question that popped up when chatting with a friend that's
considering using PG...

The PDF documentation set didn't seem to have _valid_ links from
indices/table-of-contents to the 'destinations.' I don't recall
offhand; might this be that he grabbed something a bit old-and-broken?
Or have there been troubles with this with the DocBook tools?
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(416) 646 3304 x124 (land)

[Chris Ochs]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

I will, and glad to hear it is being worked on.

Chris
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> >I'm not talking about a ton of new content, just a simple, clean layout[/color][/color]
for[color=blue][color=green]
> >the front page that's easier to use. I might even do a template myself[/color][/color]
and[color=blue][color=green]
> >send it to the list if I can get the time.
> >
> >
> >[/color]
> Well before you do that, you might want to look at pgsql-advocacy and
> pgsql-www. There
> are some arguments going on right now about that very subject :)
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
> Joshua D. Drake
>
>
>[color=green]
> >Chris
> >
> >[/color]
>
>
> --
> Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
> Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
> +1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandpromp t.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
> Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL
>
>
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>[/color]


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[Martin Marques]

Re: Documentation search (Was: Postgress and MYSQL)

Mensaje citado por Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.ne t>:
[color=blue]
> Martin Marques wrote:[color=green]
> > Not really. I just tried to look in the docs for the explicit for of
> > a CAST (really trying to find the link to send someone), and I just
> > couldn't find it. I know it's somewhere there, as I have read it
> > before, but not even the search engine installed in the interactive
> > docs seem to find that doc.[/color]
>
> If you want to find something in the documentation, there's an index at
> the end of it. I realize now that there's no entry for CAST, which I
> will fix. But if you find more terms that you would like to see in the
> index, write to pgsql-docs.[/color]

Well, this is something very interesting. I didn't know about pgsql-docs (maybe
it's because I go into the "lists" section in www.postgresql.org not looking at
the lists available, but looking for actual help on a certain list).

I will do so in the future. Thanks alot.

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