Postgress and MYSQL

[Matt Davies]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

Quoting Ben <bench@silentme dia.com>:
[color=blue]
> Yes, I don't understand why people seem to keep complaining about
> Postgres' documentation - it is by far the best reference documentation
> I've ever come across.
>
> Maybe it's that there isn't much tutorial content in the documentation -
> for somebody trying to learn how to do SQL in the first place, it's not
> going to hold your hand and I could see how that will turn off newbies.
>[/color]

I agree - it is very clear and complete. I do think that tutorials will help.
Tutorials being -
1. Basic SQL (one must understand that if you want your product to go forward
you have to teach some basic fundamentals - again no barrier to entry =
(usually) no formal training)

2. General Tutorials (see above)

3. Advanced Usage Tutorials (see above, again)


Acceptance of PG could be greatly accelerated by more:
1. small projects using PG as a backend (as stated in previous thread post)
2. documenation coming from multiple sources. Don't ask me to explain why, but
one seems to equate robustness, usability, etc... with the more titles one
sees. If you go to Barnes and Noble's and look there for DB books you see the
wall of red (Oracle books), black (M$oft), blue (MySQL). I simply point out
that perception being as it is - PG is not there. I am trying to learn more and
more about it to remedy my newcomer understanding of PG. Do not read this as if
I am a newbie to DB's; I am not ignorant.

I talk of perception - if you get PG into the hands of more newbies and make
them feel good you have a viral marketing strategy that costs you no $. I fell
for it years ago with MySQL, but I have since learned. Now that I have Oracle
experience as a reference I see MySQL as lacking and trying to hoodwink me.
Most never make it out of the cloud.



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[ezra epstein]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL


""Bob Powell"" <Bob@hotchkiss. org> wrote in message
news:s003d760.0 05@grpwise.hotc hkiss.org...[color=blue]
> To whom it may concern:
>
> I find the recent articles in various trade publications a little
> disturbing due to the lack of PostgrSQL mention. I continue to see
> articles about how IBM may be considering MYSQL for development an
> open_source web database.
>
> Why isn't PostgreSQL being considered or talked about by major industry
> giants? As a DBA I know that Postgres is far superior to MYSQL but if
> the industry directs it's energies towards open-source database this
> coming year I think somehow PostgreSQL needs to be represented better.
>[/color]

Hear, hear!

Almost all the replies are about technical superiority. But, as we have all
seen dozens of times over, marketing trumps technology in the marketplace.

So the only "fix" is to find vocal, clear and market-savvy evangelist(s) for
Postgres. Doesn't even need to be technically savvy (probably helps if the
person isn't).

== Ezra Epostein.

[Chris Ochs]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL


A good clean replication system is not available for bsd platforms as far as
I can tell, which is the preferred OS of choice for many PG installations.
I am playing around with Erserver, but the download has to be updated from
cvs or it won't even compile (corrupted file in the distribution). It
appears to me at first glance that it is not actively being worked on,
although it may indeed work (I haven't had a chance to fully configure/test
it yet on freebsd 5).

The Erserver I downloaded is free, although I was confused also because I
found that same page that said it was $1000. I'm still not sure if the
erserver I downloaded is the only version, or if there is a commercial
version?

Chris





----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Davies" <matt@mattdavie s.net>
To: <pgsql-general@postgre sql.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Postgress and MYSQL

[color=blue]
> Quoting "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprom pt.com>:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> > >[/color]
> > Replication exists in multiple manners for PostgreSQL. There is Mammoth
> > replicator (our product),
> > ErServer (pgsql.com's product), dbmirror, Rserv, and pgCluster.[/color]
>
> What I meant was integrated replication. When adding more layers to the[/color]
database[color=blue]
> there is yet one more possible mechanism for failure at some point. I[/color]
don't[color=blue]
> know about you, but Murphy always bites me in the butt. In addition, I[/color]
found[color=blue]
> your product VERY interesting, but it kinda puts me off that it is[/color]
starting at[color=blue]
> $1000. PG is free, MySQL is not (for my purposes) and costs ~$500 with
> everything in one tried and true package.
>
>
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> > >[/color]
> > MySQL has what 19 million in the bank?[/color]
>
> I only point out what the userbase is feeling. I have never been attacked[/color]
as an[color=blue]
> idiot when using MySQL - I have always had helpful responses instead of[/color]
"RTFM"[color=blue]
> as I have seen and experienced here (and with qmail). To many people[/color]
starting[color=blue]
> the decision making process one looks at the type of support and how the[/color]
group[color=blue]
> makes you feel. You don't risk the company or project on potential[/color]
hostility.[color=blue]
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> > >
> > >[/color]
> > This is very true. Perception is the key.
> >[/color]
>
> Again, I point out, PERCEPTION is the key. This can be done regardless of[/color]
the[color=blue]
> cash stash in the bank.
>[color=green]
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Joshua D. Drake
> >[/color]
>
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>[/color]


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[Martin Marques]

Documentation search (Was: Postgress and MYSQL)

Mensaje citado por Ben <bench@silentme dia.com>:
[color=blue]
> On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>[color=green]
> > Not to mention that PostgreSQL.Org has some of the most complete
> > documentation
> > of any software out there.[/color]
>
> Yes, I don't understand why people seem to keep complaining about
> Postgres' documentation - it is by far the best reference documentation
> I've ever come across.[/color]

Not really. I just tried to look in the docs for the explicit for of a CAST
(really trying to find the link to send someone), and I just couldn't find it.
I know it's somewhere there, as I have read it before, but not even the search
engine installed in the interactive docs seem to find that doc.

Personally I think the docs are great (I learned a lot from them), but some
things are not that easy to find, even with a search engine. Compared to MySQL
online docs, PG's docs are heaven!!! :-)

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[Joshua D. Drake]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

[color=blue]
>What I meant was integrated replication. When adding more layers to the database
>there is yet one more possible mechanism for failure at some point. I don't
>know about you, but Murphy always bites me in the butt. In addition, I found
>your product VERY interesting, but it kinda puts me off that it is starting at
>$1000. PG is free, MySQL is not (for my purposes) and costs ~$500 with
>everything in one tried and true package.
>
>
>[/color]
I am sorry but MySQL is anything but a tried a true package for any
serious database stuff.
Yes it is simple, but I don't consider any database that will allow you to:

divide by zero
truncate data
ignore data type constraints

worth even 500.00.
[color=blue]
> only point out what the userbase is feeling. I have never been attacked as an
>idiot when using MySQL - I have always had helpful responses instead of "RTFM"
>
>[/color]
Well first, you should always RTFM but I have never seen anyone being
treated like
an idiot on these lists and we have some pretty dumb monkeys ask
questions some times.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandpromp t.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
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[Terry Lee Tucker]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

We are in the process of porting a logistics application to Postgres from a
Progress Software database. We have about 75 employees and will be putting
Postgres to work in a real time business situation where there are lots of
transactions. Once we are successful in this endeavor, how can we get stories
like that out to people who would care to know? I know this is a small
business project, but will it help to advertise that the "little" guys are in
the trenches doing this kind of thing?

On Tuesday 13 January 2004 11:32 am, Bob Powell wrote:[color=blue]
> To whom it may concern:
>
> I find the recent articles in various trade publications a little
> disturbing due to the lack of PostgrSQL mention. I continue to see
> articles about how IBM may be considering MYSQL for development an
> open_source web database.
>
> Why isn't PostgreSQL being considered or talked about by major industry
> giants? As a DBA I know that Postgres is far superior to MYSQL but if
> the industry directs it's energies towards open-source database this
> coming year I think somehow PostgreSQL needs to be represented better.
>
>
> Bob Powell
>
>
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> TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
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> message can get through to the mailing list cleanly[/color]

--
"Posterity -- you will never know how much it has cost my generation
to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it."

--John Quincy Adams

Work: 1-336-372-6812
Cell: 1-336-363-4719
email: terry@esc1.com

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[Rick Gigger]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

> On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > Not to mention that PostgreSQL.Org has some of the most complete
> > documentation
> > of any software out there.[/color]
>
> Yes, I don't understand why people seem to keep complaining about
> Postgres' documentation - it is by far the best reference documentation
> I've ever come across.
>
> Maybe it's that there isn't much tutorial content in the documentation -
> for somebody trying to learn how to do SQL in the first place, it's not
> going to hold your hand and I could see how that will turn off newbies.[/color]

I used to have that complaint until I got more aquainted with the docs.
When I used to use mysql I found that if I used search feature on their docs
I could find exactly what I was looking for almost immediately. When I use
the postgres doc search feature I don't get the same experience. It is
slow, sometimes doesn't work and rarely gives me what I am looking for.
Then I just started using google to search the docs and realized that just
looking at the TOC is usually good enough and that the postgres docs are
actually excellent. My bad experience with search, as well as the good
experience with mysql search (do other people feel this way) however led me
initially to conclude that the postgres docs were not as good.


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[Joshua D. Drake]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

Terry Lee Tucker wrote:
[color=blue]
>We are in the process of porting a logistics application to Postgres from a
>Progress Software database. We have about 75 employees and will be putting
>Postgres to work in a real time business situation where there are lots of
>transactions . Once we are successful in this endeavor, how can we get stories
>like that out to people who would care to know? I know this is a small
>business project, but will it help to advertise that the "little" guys are in
>the trenches doing this kind of thing?
>
>
>[/color]
Absolutely. If you have a case study you can point over to pgsql-advocacy.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


[color=blue]
>On Tuesday 13 January 2004 11:32 am, Bob Powell wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>>To whom it may concern:
>>
>>I find the recent articles in various trade publications a little
>>disturbing due to the lack of PostgrSQL mention. I continue to see
>>articles about how IBM may be considering MYSQL for development an
>>open_source web database.
>>
>>Why isn't PostgreSQL being considered or talked about by major industry
>>giants? As a DBA I know that Postgres is far superior to MYSQL but if
>>the industry directs it's energies towards open-source database this
>>coming year I think somehow PostgreSQL needs to be represented better.
>>
>>
>>Bob Powell
>>
>>
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>> message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
>>
>>[/color]
>
>
>[/color]


--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandpromp t.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
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[Joshua D. Drake]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

[color=blue]
>I used to have that complaint until I got more aquainted with the docs.
>When I used to use mysql I found that if I used search feature on their docs
>I could find exactly what I was looking for almost immediately. When I use
>the postgres doc search feature I don't get the same experience. It is
>
>[/color]
Our doc search sucks. No question... there has been some work recently on it
but it doesn't seem to be that reliable. So you have us on that one.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


[color=blue]
>slow, sometimes doesn't work and rarely gives me what I am looking for.
>Then I just started using google to search the docs and realized that just
>looking at the TOC is usually good enough and that the postgres docs are
>actually excellent. My bad experience with search, as well as the good
>experience with mysql search (do other people feel this way) however led me
>initially to conclude that the postgres docs were not as good.
>
>
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>
>[/color]


--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandpromp t.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
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[Martin Marques]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

Mensaje citado por Matt Davies <matt@mattdavie s.net>:
[color=blue]
> Quoting "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprom pt.com>:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> > >[/color]
> > MySQL has what 19 million in the bank?[/color]
>
> I only point out what the userbase is feeling. I have never been attacked as
> an
> idiot when using MySQL - I have always had helpful responses instead of
> "RTFM"
> as I have seen and experienced here (and with qmail). To many people
> starting
> the decision making process one looks at the type of support and how the
> group
> makes you feel. You don't risk the company or project on potential
> hostility.[/color]

Oh, please! I have never seen such a better community then this one (well, some
exceptions come to mind right now, but it's still within the best).

I have personally found GREAT replys from the developers (Tom Lane comes to
mind, saving me lots of time in some ocations), and users of this list.

Don't missunderstand me. Everyone (including me) some times makes responces in a
bit of a hard manner, but I think you have to see the whole picture, and not a
par of snapshots.

P.D.: BTW, RTFM is very good. You can learn alot from them. ;-)

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Universidad Nacional
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[Rick Gigger]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

> >I used to have that complaint until I got more aquainted with the docs.[color=blue][color=green]
> >When I used to use mysql I found that if I used search feature on their[/color][/color]
docs[color=blue][color=green]
> >I could find exactly what I was looking for almost immediately. When I[/color][/color]
use[color=blue][color=green]
> >the postgres doc search feature I don't get the same experience. It is
> >
> >[/color]
> Our doc search sucks. No question... there has been some work recently on[/color]
it[color=blue]
> but it doesn't seem to be that reliable. So you have us on that one.[/color]

Uh, I don't have one on you the mysql team does. I haven't used mysql in
over a year and don't intend to again (at least not for any app I write
myself at leaset). I assume that the mysql website is just using the mysql
full text search. Having used the mysql full text search it does not
surprise me that the search on their website search is so good. I always
asummed (read hoped) that the postgres full text search was just as good. I
hope the bad website search is not a reflection of the quality of the full
text search in postgres.

Does anyone have any experience with postgers full text search?

Perhaps someone could get two birds with one stone and make a good full text
search engine for postgres (how hard could it be if mysql has such a good
one :-) ) and use it to index the postgres docs.

Of course maybe mysql.com uses some other proprietery seach.


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[Martin Marques]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

Mensaje citado por "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprom pt.com>:
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> >I used to have that complaint until I got more aquainted with the docs.
> >When I used to use mysql I found that if I used search feature on their[/color]
> docs[color=green]
> >I could find exactly what I was looking for almost immediately. When I use
> >the postgres doc search feature I don't get the same experience. It is
> >
> >[/color]
> Our doc search sucks. No question... there has been some work recently on it
> but it doesn't seem to be that reliable. So you have us on that one.[/color]

I personally think that the search criterion is what's wrong here. The speed can
be fixed with optimization in the server.

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[Joshua D. Drake]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

[color=blue]
>
>Does anyone have any experience with postgers full text search?
>
>
>[/color]
It works well but it is my understanding that our docs search doesn't
use PostgreSQL
and TSearch. It uses PostgreSQL monogo search or something like that.

J


[color=blue]
>Perhaps someone could get two birds with one stone and make a good full text
>search engine for postgres (how hard could it be if mysql has such a good
>one :-) ) and use it to index the postgres docs.
>
>Of course maybe mysql.com uses some other proprietery seach.
>
>
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>
>[/color]


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Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandpromp t.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
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[Matt Davies]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

Quoting Martin Marques <martin@bugs.un l.edu.ar>:[color=blue]
> Oh, please! I have never seen such a better community then this one (well,
> some
> exceptions come to mind right now, but it's still within the best).
>
> I have personally found GREAT replys from the developers (Tom Lane comes to
> mind, saving me lots of time in some ocations), and users of this list.
>
> Don't missunderstand me. Everyone (including me) some times makes responces
> in a
> bit of a hard manner, but I think you have to see the whole picture, and not
> a
> par of snapshots.
>
> P.D.: BTW, RTFM is very good. You can learn alot from them. ;-)[/color]

This thread is getting long and out in never-never land. I have RTFM. In fact,
many times. As a matter of practice I subscribe long before I post. I RTFM, I
google, attempted to search the docs and lists, ...

My comments come from my experiences and others. Yes, Tom Lane has wonderful
advice and help.

I do not mean to call the PG baby ugly (as I fear some people have taken it), I
only mean to point out some areas (as others have in this thread) that could be
improved upon that would greatly enhance PG.

Imagine this: more users, more installations, more (selective) development
fingers. Not all users are rocket scientists, but the video game rule applies
to many: if I can't get it going in X (user preference) minutes then it isn't
worth the trouble. Should PG be limited to only those who are hard core DB
users? If so, I don't think PG will take off as fast.

OK, I am done.






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[Rick Gigger]

Re: Postgress and MYSQL

> >Does anyone have any experience with postgers full text search?[color=blue][color=green]
> >[/color]
> It works well but it is my understanding that our docs search doesn't
> use PostgreSQL
> and TSearch. It uses PostgreSQL monogo search or something like that.[/color]

That's good to hear. What is monogo and is it the problem here? Why don't
it use TSearch if it is better? Is it just a matter of someone taking the
time to set it up?


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