captchas

[Geoff Berrow]

Re: captchas

Message-ID: <1178878715.864 129.318630@y80g 2000hsf.googleg roups.comfrom
shror contained the following:

>hey guys why dont you calm down this topic is just giving a new
>captcha idea not to have a fight and extchange bad words, we all are
>here to give ideas, ask questions, get feedbacks not fighting.

The tone of the exchange is set by the OP who has, in this thread and
others, shown a fondness for hurling insults at people. Frankly, I
think he's getting off lightly.

>
>in my openion i think the idea of this new captcha is good but may be
>if we just thing a little bit more for the dyslexic peolpe and
>handicaped ones we could get a new solution that will be good for all.

Yes it would, but the OP has no interest in that and in any case I've no
interest in discussing anything with him until he learns how to behave.

--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

[Jon Slaughter]

Re: captchas


"Geoff Berrow" <blthecat@ckdog .co.ukwrote in message
news:3gh843lk61 51fvp1h61fj9kcg h8ho4gav6@4ax.c om...

Message-ID: <1178878715.864 129.318630@y80g 2000hsf.googleg roups.comfrom
shror contained the following:
>

>>hey guys why dont you calm down this topic is just giving a new
>>captcha idea not to have a fight and extchange bad words, we all are
>>here to give ideas, ask questions, get feedbacks not fighting.

>
The tone of the exchange is set by the OP who has, in this thread and
others, shown a fondness for hurling insults at people. Frankly, I
think he's getting off lightly.

>>
>>in my openion i think the idea of this new captcha is good but may be
>>if we just thing a little bit more for the dyslexic peolpe and
>>handicaped ones we could get a new solution that will be good for all.

>
Yes it would, but the OP has no interest in that and in any case I've no
interest in discussing anything with him until he learns how to behave.
>

No, its people like you that I hurl insults at.

Instead of being constructive you guys always try to find any way to shoot
down an idea. "Lets do this?" "No, It won't work because theres a 0.0001%
that this will happen" or some bs like that. In this case its "Its no good
because 0.1% of the population cannot use it well".

You guys (You, Jerry, and David) are the type of people that always find
fault with anything. You gotta bitch and complain because thats all your
good at.

The fact is that you guys are just looking for somethign to bitch at and I'm
not going to let you take it out on me. You don't like my ideas... then
thats fine... but shut the fuck up about it. Don't try and make me out to be
an idiot cause you can't come up with your own ideas. Just keep your mouth
shut... no one asks you to reply. Its one thing to critize and to try and
help and its another to critize because your just an asshole and you get
your kicks out if it.

[Jon Slaughter]

Re: captchas


"Mike P2" <sumguyovrthar@ gmail.comwrote in message
news:1178833548 .465682.182500@ u30g2000hsc.goo glegroups.com.. .

On May 10, 4:45 am, "Rami Elomaa" <rami.elo...@gm ail.comwrote:

>You're giving the finger to dyslexic people.

>
I'd use Jon's method anyway. Dyslexic people can send me an email
instead to prove they are human, and so can the blind. If they can't
even send me an email, I don't know if I want them registering on my
site and posting in my forums anyway.
>

I'm glad someone agree's ;)

You know, these other guys are just morons. There are many possible
solutions around the issue of dyslexic people but they have to shoot down
the whole idea and only god knows why. If those people are so dyslexic that
they cannot read simple text then they have no place using the internet...
they couldn't even get on google because it would make no sense. If they
can search on google then they can read a simple line of text. Dyslexia !=
blind which Jerry, David, and Geoff want us to believe. Next they'll be
saying that captchas are evil because they discriminate against blind
people... and when that problem is solved then they'll bitch about something
else. It seems the only thing these people are good at is bitching instead
of solving.

[harvey]

Re: captchas

In article <miZ0i.7705$2v1 .566@newssvr14. news.prodigy.ne t>,
Jon_Slaughter@H otmail.com says...

>
>
You know, these other guys are just morons. There are many possible
solutions around the issue of dyslexic people but they have to shoot down
the whole idea and only god knows why. If those people are so dyslexic that
they cannot read simple text then they have no place using the internet...
they couldn't even get on google because it would make no sense. If they
can search on google then they can read a simple line of text. Dyslexia !=
blind which Jerry, David, and Geoff want us to believe. Next they'll be
saying that captchas are evil because they discriminate against blind
people... and when that problem is solved then they'll bitch about something
else. It seems the only thing these people are good at is bitching instead
of solving.
>

Just my 2c worth so I can contribute something.
I find captchas totally annoying as a user and avoid anything that
requires them. I've stopped using most bulletin boards for example and
never register on any at all now. If they dont do guest posting I dont
bother at all.

My understanding is they seem to be the only answer
available to a tricky problem for webmasters so even I do have to accept
them at times until someone comes up with a better solution. But since
most online stuff isn't essential to me I can just choose not to use BB's
and other things with "registrati on" annoyances.

Just one more thought -
Actually captchas do discriminate against blind people because text
reading software many blind people use cannot read the captchas to them
whereas it can read the rest of the page and voice recognition does allow
them to search google etc. (Its just a thought)

[Mike P2]

Re: captchas

On May 11, 8:26 am, "Jon Slaughter" <Jon_Slaugh...@ Hotmail.comwrot e:

I'm glad someone agree's ;)

I do think the point of dyslexia and bad vision is a good and
important one, but I just think that can be worked around with old
fashioned communication. Automation is what allows us to simplify and
speed up registration and also what allows spammers to mass-spam. If
either of the two ends are not automated, the problem is no longer
automated spam registration.

This idea presents a chance to make a hybrid of direct communication
and automation. Administrators of the website will likely have to
accept very few registrations manually because most people would
prefer to take the short time to decode the word, and the rest will be
automatic.

Besides, there are probably more people on the internet who don't
speak English or don't speak it well than those who can't read their
screen or can't read it well. Before you even bother with handicaps,
you can help a larger percentage by covering a few more languages. At
least covering other languages will be automated once you code it.

I think it's still important to only put common words in the captcha
database. Things like colors, greetings, etc.

I don't agree with the immaturity this thread has gained, though.
Count me out.

-Mike PII

[Rami Elomaa]

Re: captchas

Jon Slaughter kirjoitti:

"Rami Elomaa" <rami.elomaa@gm ail.comwrote in message
news:mSC0i.1616 38$7S3.88425@re ader1.news.saun alahti.fi...

>"Jon Slaughter" <Jon_Slaughter@ Hotmail.comwrot e in message
>news:M5C0i.209 65$JZ3.17479@ne wssvr13.news.pr odigy.net...

>>"Rami Elomaa" <rami.elomaa@gm ail.comwrote in message
>>news:jYA0i.16 1597$y53.19889@ reader1.news.sa unalahti.fi...
>>>"Jon Slaughter" <Jon_Slaughter@ Hotmail.comwrot e in message
>>>news:Aun0i.1 721$UU.300@news svr19.news.prod igy.net...
>>>>I was thinking about a way to use a similar idea but to dramatically
>>>>increase the ability to thawrt bots.
>>>>>
>>>>The idea is to use the idea that humans can use context and patterns to
>>>>understan d much better than computers in such cases as the following,
>>>>>
>>>>http://www.simplebits.com/notebook/2...sed_wdors.html
>>>>>
>>>>So the idea is to ask the user a very simple questions that is written
>>>>using misspelled words and such so that it makes it almost impossible
>>>>for computers to recognize what the answer is. The question can be
>>>>graphical ly manipulated so that its also visually harder to figure out
>>>>like a normal captcha.
>>>>>
>>>>Besides changing the order of the letters in a word one can
>>>>deliberatel y change letters so that the word doesn't make sense but in
>>>>the context is not difficult for a human. One can even use bad grammar
>>>>and a few other things to make it more difficult.
>>>>>
>>>>I was thinking that one could create a very large database of such
>>>>things in different languages that sites could use.
>>>>>
>>>>What do you guys think?
>>>>
>>>You're giving the finger to dyslexic people.
>>>>
>>And? So you think they can read normal captchas too?

>No, I think the usual captchas are hard to read too, dyslexic or not.
>>

>>if they are dyslexic then chances are they can actually read them easier
>>because there is context... so you don't have to read letter for letter
>>but just get the question.

>If normal text with context is hard to read, garbled text will be even
>more difficult to read, even if it is in context. Feel free to ignore the
>issue, but please don't pretend it doesn't exist.
>>

>>Dyslexia is an excuse for stupid people.

>And being blind is just an excuse for being clumsy...
>>

that isn't feedback. Shit. What about blind people? Do you bitch that
captchas are completely worthless for them and since 99.9% of people who are
not blind have to act blind because we don't want to in any way descriminate
against the 0.1%?

When did I say your captcha would be "completely worthless"? Never. I
never stated that, and I'm not sayin either that blurred image captchas
are useless. I am not against you or your captcha. It's nice to have new
innovations. I just thought you'd like to know that there is a flaw in
it, that certainly doesn't render it useless, but makes it difficult to
use for a certain group of people. And this is all I've said. Everything
else is in your imagination, I've not said these things.

How many sites use captchas? If its such a difficult thing then obviously
you should bitch at them first.

The other captchas have downsides. If you'll try to register a gmail
account, you'll find that they provide not one, but two different types
of captchas, one visual and one aural. A computer will fail both, but a
human user, even a disabled one, will usually be able to at least one of
the two tests. They've recognized the fact that a visual captcha is not
flawless, hence they provide two different types.

>Look, if you didn't want feedback then why the hell did you ask in the
>first place?
>>

>
No, that isn't feedback. Your trying to dictate to me something that you
haven't thought out.

What exactly was I trying to dictate? I never said that you shouldn't
use it. All I did was brought to your attention that it raises the bar
for dyslexic people. I didn't tell you _not_ to develope the system, did I?

What about dyslexic people? What the hell about them?

The greatness of a society is measured by how it treats its weakest members.

Just cause there are dyslexic people out there that means that the rest of
us have to dumb down everything instead of them trying harder?

Because it's polite?

Let's take the visually challenged example again, cos it's very easy to
understand. In an atm machine there is the regular joe buttons with
printed roman numerals. The buttons also have the numbers written in
braille, so a blind person can operate the atm just as well. Having them
there is not "dumbing down" anything for a person with 20-20 vision, to
a person with a normal vision they have no effect. It's simply providing
an alternate interface for a disabled person. Furthermore, if there were
no braille, "trying harder" would not enable a blind person to see the
numbers.

Theres plenty of dyslexic people who don't use it as an excuse and I'm
partially dyslexic but I haven't let it get in my way.

That's good for you. My handicap is that my right ear is completly deaf,
I only hear with the left ear. It usually does not affect me in any way,
but having this mostly insignificant disability has given me perspective
and taught me to not take evertyhing for granted.

It just sounds to me like your making up an excuse for something. Just cause
you personally don't like captchas and thing they are useless doesn't mean
they are.

I'm not making any excuses, why would I? Again, when did I say that I
don't like captchas? I've stated that they are always flawed one way or
the other, they are usually not fulfilling their job of telling humans
and computes apart, since there are false negatives. This is simply a
known fact, which anyone who designs a capthca should be aware of. They
exclude a group of people and to serve their needs, you need a backup
plan. I've pointed out that the minority sturggling in your case would
be the dyslexic, and that you possibly need a backup plan for them. I
have not stated at any time that you should not do this captcha. You
truly have a wonderful imagination as you come up with all this bullshit
you think I'm saying.

In fact I don't like them either but I don't like that people
think they can do whatever they want. In a perfect world there would be no
need for captchas... but this isn't a perfect world and instead of trying to
make the world conform to you, you need to conform to the world.

Yes, and there indeed are different ways of doing that. The gmail
example I mentioned earlier is a good way. Surely there must be a
minority within minority within minority that still won't be able to
register gmail, but as you said it, this is not a perfect world. Now
then, saying "What about dyslexic people? What the hell about them?" is
not a good way.

You know, theres no telling how many times I've fucked up on some captcha
and had to wait 1 min each time for the timer to go down(Such as on
rapidshare). Sure I get pissed... so what. If it inconvieninces those
loosers who try to hack account then its worth it.

The intrest span of a modern internet user is growing shorter and
shorter. Back in the old days a person could easily wait 20 seconds to 1
minute for a page to load. Now with broadbands, the time has shortened
to less than 8 seconds. In addition. if a person happens to have adhd
and also is dyslexic, they're gone. Five minutes my ass. They're gone in
15 seconds.. Okay, this is a long shot, and not a very realistic
example, I admit that. Still, you'll see that five minutes is actually
quite a long time after all. And for some people it's beyond the "worth
it" limit. Extremely complex registration processes alienate users.
Something that may seem to you fairly easy can be extremely difficult
for others.

I'm sure those people who are dyslexic can spend 5 mins figuring out a
captcha if it stops 99.9% of bots/hackers. Its not like any normal person
signs up to more than a few accounts a month.

Yes, I'm sure they can, but still it is a nuisance. If you can come up
with a way that takes them only 1 minute instead of five, they will
certainly appreciate it.

Finally, I'd like to say that my intention was not to pick a huge fight.
The conversation here has gone way out of proportion. I admit that I
could have chosen my words better. By starting wiht "You're giving the
finger..." I sort of started the avalanche. To avoid this kind of
confrontations you and I both need to work on our communication skills
and keep in mind that getting steamed up over a discussion in the
internet is not worth it.

I actually started two responses earlier today and yesterday, but
instead of sending them I deleted them. I felt that I put too much
emotion and too little sense in them. This final draft is somewhat less
edgy and hopefully a bit more rational. When it comes to posting usenet
messages, I have a habit of sometimes being blunt and arrogant, and it's
something I've tried to work on over the years. Not posting to usenet at
all is the only way for me to kick the habit completly.

--
Rami.Elomaa@gma il.com

"Wikipedia on vähän niinq internetin raamattu, kukaan ei pohjimmiltaan
usko siihen ja kukaan ei tiedä mikä pitää paikkansa." -- z00ze

[Jerry Stuckle]

Re: captchas

Jon Slaughter wrote:

"Geoff Berrow" <blthecat@ckdog .co.ukwrote in message
news:3gh843lk61 51fvp1h61fj9kcg h8ho4gav6@4ax.c om...

>Message-ID: <1178878715.864 129.318630@y80g 2000hsf.googleg roups.comfrom
>shror contained the following:
>>

>>hey guys why dont you calm down this topic is just giving a new
>>captcha idea not to have a fight and extchange bad words, we all are
>>here to give ideas, ask questions, get feedbacks not fighting.

>The tone of the exchange is set by the OP who has, in this thread and
>others, shown a fondness for hurling insults at people. Frankly, I
>think he's getting off lightly.

>>in my openion i think the idea of this new captcha is good but may be
>>if we just thing a little bit more for the dyslexic peolpe and
>>handicaped ones we could get a new solution that will be good for all.

>Yes it would, but the OP has no interest in that and in any case I've no
>interest in discussing anything with him until he learns how to behave.
>>

>
>
No, its people like you that I hurl insults at.
>
Instead of being constructive you guys always try to find any way to shoot
down an idea. "Lets do this?" "No, It won't work because theres a 0.0001%
that this will happen" or some bs like that. In this case its "Its no good
because 0.1% of the population cannot use it well".
>
You guys (You, Jerry, and David) are the type of people that always find
fault with anything. You gotta bitch and complain because thats all your
good at.
>
The fact is that you guys are just looking for somethign to bitch at and I'm
not going to let you take it out on me. You don't like my ideas... then
thats fine... but shut the fuck up about it. Don't try and make me out to be
an idiot cause you can't come up with your own ideas. Just keep your mouth
shut... no one asks you to reply. Its one thing to critize and to try and
help and its another to critize because your just an asshole and you get
your kicks out if it.
>
>

No, I don't find fault with everything. There are a lot of good things
I support.

I just find fault with stupid ideas - like yours. But like most morons,
you're unable to recognize the real-world faults in your idea.

Fortunately, *real programmers* don't suffer from perfectionalism . They
can recognize there may be faults in their ideas.


--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Jerry Stuckle]

Re: captchas

Jon Slaughter wrote:

"Mike P2" <sumguyovrthar@ gmail.comwrote in message
news:1178833548 .465682.182500@ u30g2000hsc.goo glegroups.com.. .

>On May 10, 4:45 am, "Rami Elomaa" <rami.elo...@gm ail.comwrote:

>>You're giving the finger to dyslexic people.

>I'd use Jon's method anyway. Dyslexic people can send me an email
>instead to prove they are human, and so can the blind. If they can't
>even send me an email, I don't know if I want them registering on my
>site and posting in my forums anyway.
>>

>
I'm glad someone agree's ;)
>
You know, these other guys are just morons. There are many possible
solutions around the issue of dyslexic people but they have to shoot down
the whole idea and only god knows why. If those people are so dyslexic that
they cannot read simple text then they have no place using the internet...
they couldn't even get on google because it would make no sense. If they
can search on google then they can read a simple line of text. Dyslexia !=
blind which Jerry, David, and Geoff want us to believe. Next they'll be
saying that captchas are evil because they discriminate against blind
people... and when that problem is solved then they'll bitch about something
else. It seems the only thing these people are good at is bitching instead
of solving.
>
>
>

No, you're the moron for not acknowledging the faults in your idea.

Anyone who worked for me and had that attitude would find themselves on
the street before you could say PHP.

You're worse than a bad programmer. You're a bigot - in the worst way.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Jim Carlock]

Re: captchas

"Jerry Stuckle" wrote...
: Fortunately, *real programmers* don't suffer from perfectionalism .
: They can recognize there may be faults in their ideas.

The perfect programmer is an illusion painted by an artsy individual.

What's wrong with your time? Or is it my time?

--
Jim Carlock
Post replies to the group.

[Jerry Stuckle]

Re: captchas

Jim Carlock wrote:

"Jerry Stuckle" wrote...
: Fortunately, *real programmers* don't suffer from perfectionalism .
: They can recognize there may be faults in their ideas.
>
The perfect programmer is an illusion painted by an artsy individual.
>
What's wrong with your time? Or is it my time?
>

Who said anything about a "perfect programmer"? There is no such thing.

I was talking about *real programmers* vs.
I-wanna-be-a-programmer-but-don't want to study' folks.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attgl obal.net
=============== ===