Object Oriented PHP vs Java

[Amir Khawaja]

Re: Object Oriented PHP vs Java

Jerry wrote:
[color=blue]
> What are the advantages and disadvantages of using Object Oriented
> PHP vs Java?[/color]

If you've ever had training in software development, then you would not
be asking this question.


--
Amir Khawaja.

----------------------------------
Rules are written for those who lack the ability to truly reason, But
for those who can, the rules become nothing more than guidelines, And
live their lives governed not by rules but by reason.
- James McGuigan

[Jaron \Ronamo\ Hendrix]

Re: Object Oriented PHP vs Java

The date was 21 Jan 2004 10:31:04 -0800, and weinstei@nova.e du (Jerry)
created the following morsel of goodness:
[color=blue]
>What are the advantages and disadvantages of using Object Oriented
>PHP vs Java?[/color]

It all depends on what type of project you will be working on. If you
want to create a page templating engine, go with PHP. If you want to
create an online game, use Java.

Whether you use one or the other for OOP is a moot point. You
wouldn't use PHP to create a side-scrolling adventure game, and Java,
IMHO at least, certainly is NOT the best suited language for parsing
text. They both have a reasonable OOP model to work with, but the
languages just don't seem to have the same intended uses.

[Dave Benjamin]

Re: Object Oriented PHP vs Java

In article <bun77t$k8f2g$1 @ID-30799.news.uni-berlin.de>, Agelmar wrote:[color=blue]
> Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:[color=green]
>> Savut wrote:[color=darkred]
>>> "Jerry" <weinstei@nova. edu> wrote in message
>>> news:69fca47c.0 401211031.539ef 63f@posting.goo gle.com...
>>>
>>>> What are the advantages and disadvantages of using Object Oriented
>>>> PHP vs Java?
>>>
>>> >> PHP is not fully OO, even the PHP5... but Java is OO
>>>>[/color]
>>
>> As there is *no* commonly accepted definition of OO, I just dont
>> understand how you can claim such a thing.
>>
>> BTW, Smalltalkers could tell you why Java is not OO !-)[/color]
>
> Actually, there is a commonly accepted definition...
> OO implies:
> polymorphism, encapsulation, and inheritance.[/color]

Polymorphism is available in non-OO languages. Many, including the
authors of Design Patterns, advocate delegation over inheritance.
Encapsulation can be easily achieved with modules and records.

Alan Kay defines OOP as late binding and messaging. He also noted that Java
is not what he had in mind when he coined the term, "OO".

Robert Martin sees OOP as a dependency management technique; no more, no less.

Ruby claims to be "pure-OO", but doesn't effectively enforce "informatio n
hiding", which to some is a crucial part of "encapsulation" , and to others,
a totally separate topic.

But there's one thing for sure: OO == good. So, start with "good" and
extrapolate "OO". It's much easier. =)

--
..:[ dave benjamin (rameny sp00) -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.
: d r i n k i n g l i f e o u t o f t h e c o n t a i n e r :

[Tony Marston]

Re: Object Oriented PHP vs Java


"Dave Benjamin" <ramen@lackingt alent.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc0v21b .pop.ramen@lack ingtalent.com.. .[color=blue]
> In article <bun77t$k8f2g$1 @ID-30799.news.uni-berlin.de>, Agelmar wrote:[color=green]
> > Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:[color=darkred]
> >> Savut wrote:
> >>> "Jerry" <weinstei@nova. edu> wrote in message
> >>> news:69fca47c.0 401211031.539ef 63f@posting.goo gle.com...
> >>>[/color][/color][/color]

<snip>
[color=blue]
> But there's one thing for sure: OO == good. So, start with "good" and
> extrapolate "OO". It's much easier. =)
>[/color]

I disagree entirely. You are implying that if it is OO then it must be good,
and if it is not OO then it must be bad.

It is possible to have an OO solution that is a pile of crap, and it is also
possible to have a non-OO solution that is not.

Tony Marston

http://www.tonymarston.net/

[Tony Marston]

Re: Object Oriented PHP vs Java


"Amir Khawaja" <amir@gorebels. net> wrote in message
news:y5HPb.5660 3$zs4.37656@fed 1read01...[color=blue]
> Tony Marston wrote:[color=green]
> > "Savut" <webki@hotmail. com> wrote in message
> > news:UEzPb.1514 9$U77.1028473@n ews20.bellgloba l.com...
> >[color=darkred]
> >>PHP is not fully OO, even the PHP5... but Java is OO
> >>[/color]
> >
> >
> > Not according to some people as it does not support multiple[/color][/color]
inheritance.[color=blue]
>
> Multiple inheritance can be problematic and is not a staple of OOP.
>[color=green]
> >[/color][/color]

Which is precisely why it was left out of Java, and also left out of PHP 5.

Tony Marston

http://www.tonymarston.net/

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Re: Object Oriented PHP vs Java

Agelmar wrote:[color=blue]
> Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
>[color=green]
>>Savut wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>>"Jerry" <weinstei@nova. edu> wrote in message
>>>news:69fca47 c.0401211031.53 9ef63f@posting. google.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>What are the advantages and disadvantages of using Object Oriented
>>>>PHP vs Java?
>>>
>>> >> PHP is not fully OO, even the PHP5... but Java is OO
>>>[/color]
>>As there is *no* commonly accepted definition of OO, I just dont
>>understand how you can claim such a thing.
>>
>>BTW, Smalltalkers could tell you why Java is not OO !-)[/color]
>
>
> Actually, there is a commonly accepted definition...
> OO implies:
> polymorphism, encapsulation, and inheritance.[/color]

Not so commonly accepted...
inheritence have two meanings :
- type/interface inheritence, which is about subtyping
- implementation inheritence, which is about code reuse

The first one doesn't make sens in a dynamically-typed language nor in
statically-typed-with-type-inference language (like OCaml). So it is
only useful for 'rigidly-typed' languages like Java and C++ - which BTW
are not 'pure' OOPLs (if this has any meaning) since they have
'non-object' types.

The second one is handy for code-reuse but can - and in many cases would
better - be replaced by composition/delegation.

Encapsulation largely predates OO and is of common use in procedural
(never wrote an ADT in C ?) and functional languages (ever heard of
closures ?).

Polymorphism is also independant of OO, and exists in procedural and/or
functional languages too.

So much for your 'commonly accepted definition', which doesnt define
anything IMHO : I just can't see how anyone could connect this with the
concept of objects that did not ever mentionned.

But dont take it wrong, I agree that these 3 concepts are commonly used
in OO and do have a meaning in a somewhat wider perspective.

What strikes me is that you missed the 2 real key points : objects, and
message passing with dynamic dispatch. OO is mostly and primarily about
things that we call 'objects' that have state and send messages to each
others. How some particular object react to a message depends on its
particular behavior and state.

And now this brings back the notions of encapsulation (each object carry
it's own state) and polymorphism (two different object can accept the
same message, each one reacting in it's own way).

The concept of 'type' could then be defined by the LSP : two objects
that accepts the same messages are of the same type. And the notion of
class could be defined in an almost mathematic way : a class is the set
of objects that a/ are of the same type and b/ have the same behavior
(which usually implies having the same internal structure when it comes
to implementation) .

Note that inheritance has no particular meaning wrt this definition, and
so is only a code reuse facility in a dynamically typed language and a
'necessary evil' (no flame please) to support dynamic dispatch of
messages (ie polymorphism) in rigidly-typed languages.

<disclaimer>
Please note also that I would never pretend this definition being the
One And Only Revealed Truth(tm) about OO !-)
<disclaimer/>

My 2 cents...
Bruno

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Re: Object Oriented PHP vs Java

Amir Khawaja wrote:[color=blue]
> Daniel Tryba wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Savut <webki@hotmail. com> wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> PHP is not fully OO, even the PHP5... but Java is OO[/color]
>>
>> But even java isn't fully OO. PHP is OO, just like javascript is OO to
>> some degree.
>>[/color]
>
> PHP4 has some OOP support. PHP5 has better OOP support. JavaScript is
> not really OO since it uses anonymous functions to define methods.[/color]

And ? Why would this make Javascript less OO ?
(BTW, note that you can also use named functions to define methods).
[color=blue]
> Not
> to mention, inheritance can be tricky in JavaScript.[/color]

For sure, unless you have a good grasp on prototype-based OOPLs !-).

But since Javascript is dynamically typed, inheritence is not needed to
support polymorphism and thus is nothing more than a code-reuse
facility, so it does not affect the 'OOness' of Javascript IMHO.

Bruno

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Re: Object Oriented PHP vs Java

Amir Khawaja wrote:[color=blue]
> Jerry wrote:
>[color=green]
>> What are the advantages and disadvantages of using Object Oriented
>> PHP vs Java?[/color]
>
>
> If you've ever had training in software development, then you would not
> be asking this question.
>[/color]
A very useful answer. Thanks for your contribution.

[Savut]

Re: Object Oriented PHP vs Java

Javascript is not at all OO because there is no concept of private and
public variable method, metamorphis and object inherence. You guys are real
newbs in programming to say so. When I said Java I mean Java like JSP not
Javascript.

Savut

"Bruno Desthuilliers" <bdesth.quelque chose@free.quel quepart.fr> wrote in
message news:400fb42b$0 $7152$626a54ce@ news.free.fr...[color=blue]
> Amir Khawaja wrote:[color=green]
> > Daniel Tryba wrote:
> >[color=darkred]
> >> Savut <webki@hotmail. com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> PHP is not fully OO, even the PHP5... but Java is OO
> >>
> >> But even java isn't fully OO. PHP is OO, just like javascript is OO to
> >> some degree.
> >>[/color]
> >
> > PHP4 has some OOP support. PHP5 has better OOP support. JavaScript is
> > not really OO since it uses anonymous functions to define methods.[/color]
>
> And ? Why would this make Javascript less OO ?
> (BTW, note that you can also use named functions to define methods).
>[color=green]
> > Not
> > to mention, inheritance can be tricky in JavaScript.[/color]
>
> For sure, unless you have a good grasp on prototype-based OOPLs !-).
>
> But since Javascript is dynamically typed, inheritence is not needed to
> support polymorphism and thus is nothing more than a code-reuse
> facility, so it does not affect the 'OOness' of Javascript IMHO.
>
> Bruno
>[/color]

[Jochen Buennagel]

Re: Object Oriented PHP vs Java

Savut wrote:
[color=blue]
> Javascript is not at all OO because there is no concept of private and
> public variable method, metamorphis and object inherence.[/color]

The only things that you need for OO are objects/classes that can have
methods and properties. PHP4 has all those, as does Javascript.

(Strictly OT and just out of interest: What are "metamorphi s" and
"inherence" ? How do they relate to the concepts of polymorphism and
inheritance?)

Jochen

[Lothar Scholz]

Re: Object Oriented PHP vs Java

Amir Khawaja <amir@gorebels. net> wrote in message news:<R9HPb.566 04$zs4.43705@fe d1read01>...[color=blue]
> Daniel Tryba wrote:
>[color=green]
> > Savut <webki@hotmail. com> wrote:
> >[color=darkred]
> >>PHP is not fully OO, even the PHP5... but Java is OO[/color]
> >
> >
> > But even java isn't fully OO. PHP is OO, just like javascript is OO to
> > some degree.
> >[/color]
>
> PHP4 has some OOP support. PHP5 has better OOP support. JavaScript is
> not really OO since it uses anonymous functions to define methods. Not
> to mention, inheritance can be tricky in JavaScript.[/color]

Java Script is has full OO support. Maybe the class less
implementation is different then what you think. A system that has
more then only OO features can always be called real OO.

But 'real' OO is a pure marketing slogan. Maybe pure'ness is far from
being a good.

[Lothar Scholz]

Re: Object Oriented PHP vs Java

"Tony Marston" <tony@NOSPAM.de mon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<buobb9$jt t$1$8300dec7@ne ws.demon.co.uk> ...[color=blue]
>
> Which is precisely why it was left out of Java, and also left out of PHP 5.
>[/color]

No because they were to lazy to provide a good multiple inheritance
implementation like eiffel has. Java is a hacked language and not
technically a good one - no matter how many people use it.

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Re: Object Oriented PHP vs Java

Savut wrote:
(please don't top-post. Corrected)
[color=blue]
> "Bruno Desthuilliers" <bdesth.quelque chose@free.quel quepart.fr> wrote in
> message news:400fb42b$0 $7152$626a54ce@ news.free.fr...
>[color=green]
>>Amir Khawaja wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>>Daniel Tryba wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Savut <webki@hotmail. com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>PHP is not fully OO, even the PHP5... but Java is OO
>>>>
>>>>But even java isn't fully OO. PHP is OO, just like javascript is OO to
>>>>some degree.
>>>>
>>>
>>>PHP4 has some OOP support. PHP5 has better OOP support. JavaScript is
>>>not really OO since it uses anonymous functions to define methods.[/color]
>>
>>And ? Why would this make Javascript less OO ?
>>(BTW, note that you can also use named functions to define methods).
>>
>>[color=darkred]
>>>Not
>>>to mention, inheritance can be tricky in JavaScript.[/color]
>>
>>For sure, unless you have a good grasp on prototype-based OOPLs !-).
>>
>>But since Javascript is dynamically typed, inheritence is not needed to
>>support polymorphism and thus is nothing more than a code-reuse
>>facility, so it does not affect the 'OOness' of Javascript IMHO.
>>
>> Javascript is not at all OO because there is no concept of private and
>> public variable method,[/color][/color]

You forgot 'protected' !-)

But this is *absolutely not* needed for a language to support OO.
[color=blue]
> metamorphis[/color]

Never heard of this word...

Oh, you meant "polymorphi sm" ?
So you're plain wraong. Javascript support polymorphism, as any
dynamically typed OOPL.
[color=blue]
> and object inherence.[/color]
I suppose you mean "inheritanc e" ?

Fisrt thing is that Javascript does support inheritence, since in a way
that may be somewhat special for someone that doesn't grasp the
prototype-based OO paradigm.

The second thing is that, except for polymorphism support in
'rigidly-typed'[1] languages like C++ or Java, inheritance is by no mean
necessary to OO*P* (it's a different thing when it comes to OOA/OOD).

[1] which is a shortcut for 'statically typed with no type inference
mechanism', not a value judgement.
[color=blue]
> You guys are real[color=green]
>> newbs in programming to say so.[/color][/color]

Er... Well, it's true that even if I started programming (for fun) in
1990, I'm only a professionnal programmer since late 1999, so one could
say I'm still a newbie.

Now, on the basis of your writing, I'd suggest that learning more about
OO, it's history, and languages like Smalltalk, CLOS, Ruby and Io would
be a good idea...
[color=blue][color=green]
>> When I said Java I mean Java like JSP not
>> Javascript.[/color][/color]

I use Java and Javascript since 1999, so be assured that I do know the
difference between the two languages.

Regards
Bruno

[Erwin Moller]

Re: Object Oriented PHP vs Java

Lothar Scholz wrote:
[color=blue]
> "Tony Marston" <tony@NOSPAM.de mon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:<buobb9$jt t$1$8300dec7@ne ws.demon.co.uk> ...[color=green]
>>
>> Which is precisely why it was left out of Java, and also left out of PHP
>> 5.
>>[/color]
>
> No because they were to lazy to provide a good multiple inheritance
> implementation like eiffel has. Java is a hacked language and not
> technically a good one - no matter how many people use it.[/color]

Lothar,

Do you actually use Java?
Are you an experienced Javaprogrammer?
I ask this because you would be the first person I meet who actually uses
Java, understand the language, AND doesn't like it.

I heard people complain a lot on a lot of languages, often with good
arguments, but the only complaint about Java I heard is a steep
learningcurve in the beginning.
Most complaint about Java from programmers comes from C++ programmers, who
miss their precious functionpointer s.

In my opinion Java is a great language, you guessed that probably.

I have to admit I do not know eiffel, so maybe you are just completely right
and I am wrong. But I just had to make a stand for Java here. :P

Regards,
Erwin Moller

[Erwin Moller]

Re: Object Oriented PHP vs Java

Amir Khawaja wrote:
[color=blue]
> Jerry wrote:
>[color=green]
>> What are the advantages and disadvantages of using Object Oriented
>> PHP vs Java?[/color]
>
> If you've ever had training in software development, then you would not
> be asking this question.
>
>[/color]

Amir,

Judging by the number of interesting posts in this thread, I think things
might be a bit more complicated.

I like this discussion a lot, because I use both languages and like them
both.

I also find your posting a bit out-of-sync with your (excellent) signature:
"Rules are written for those who lack the ability to truly reason, But
for those who can, the rules become nothing more than guidelines, And
live their lives governed not by rules but by reason."

Regards,
Erwin Moller