PHP or COLDFUSION

[Karim]

Re: PHP or COLDFUSION

On 4 Nov 2003 21:05:12 -0800, R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah wrote:
[color=blue]
> Karim <karim3411@yaho o.moc> wrote in message news:<yw15yfn5q g6q.16x05a4dfjc mj.dlg@40tude.n et>...[color=green]
>> On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:14:39 +1100, Terence wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Furthermore, PHP's function library is far far far superior to any
>>> version of CF. Just check this out...
>>> http://www.php.net/manual/en/funcref.php
>>> unbeatable... this is where PHP craps all over Java and CF and .NET for
>>> web apps.[/color]
>>
>> Can you be more specific on why you think PHP is better than .NET? Did you
>> actually use ASP.NET?[/color]
>
> BTW, have you ever used the cool PHP?[/color]

No.. but I used the cool ASP.NET.
Does PHP have a solid integrated IDE like Visual Studio.NET or C# Borland
whith commercial type debugging, profiling, prototyping, collaborative
work, etc? BTW, I am asking because I want to know and I am interested in
learn PHP if there are quality IDE's out there. (Dreamweaver is not one of
them).

Karim

[Kevin Thorpe]

Re: PHP or COLDFUSION

>> BTW, have you ever used the cool PHP?[color=blue]
>
>
> No.. but I used the cool ASP.NET.
> Does PHP have a solid integrated IDE like Visual Studio.NET or C# Borland
> whith commercial type debugging, profiling, prototyping, collaborative
> work, etc? BTW, I am asking because I want to know and I am interested in
> learn PHP if there are quality IDE's out there. (Dreamweaver is not one of
> them).[/color]

Not wanting to start a flame war, but programming IDE environments are
badly overrated. I use vi for editing code and vi or occasionally
DreamWeaver for HTML. Php applications can be built on an incremental
basis directly on the server using SSH/telnet and tested immediately.
I've found IDEs mainly useful for programming systems with high
dependencies such as C,C++ and Java. You can get a long way with echo
statements.

Bear in mind though that I've been doing this job for 24 years and
started by hand assembling machine code. That taught you to check things
five times before compiling ;-)

[Bryan Buchs]

Re: PHP or COLDFUSION

> Does PHP have a solid integrated IDE like Visual Studio.NET or C# Borland[color=blue]
> whith commercial type debugging, profiling, prototyping, collaborative
> work, etc? BTW, I am asking because I want to know and I am interested in
> learn PHP if there are quality IDE's out there. (Dreamweaver is not one of
> them).[/color]

Try Zend Studio. It's a nice IDE, plus you have the option (at least on
windows) to have it configure a local development server for you, and to
install all the current PHP documentation, too. It's a nice package.

http://www.zend.com

Whats New in 3.0
=============== =
New Features
1. Profiler
2. Zend browser toolbar - One click debugging and profiling directly
from your browser
3. Code analyzer
4. Support for PHP 5.0 including syntax highlighting, code completion,
file and project inspectors
5. Dramatic performance improvements
6. Major improvement to code completion including improve speed,
recognized constants, and New functions arguments view
7. Highlight syntax errors and syntax error indicator bar
8. New File Type Mechanism
9. JavaScript support for syntax highlighting and code indentation
10. XML project and program configuration
11. Lots of bug fixes

Feature Enhancements
1. New action that checks the connection with the debug server.
2. Automatic update check
3. Improved code completion appearance
4. Improve ESC usability - first ESC closes peripheral interface windows,
Shift + ESC re-opens them)
5. Improved CVS - new log action.
6. Improved FTP - better support in DOS FTP.

[Terence]

Re: PHP or COLDFUSION

Karim wrote:[color=blue]
> On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 11:18:19 +1100, Terence wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>>Karim wrote:
>>
>>[color=darkred]
>>>On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:14:39 +1100, Terence wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Furthermore , PHP's function library is far far far superior to any
>>>>version of CF. Just check this out...
>>>>http://www.php.net/manual/en/funcref.php
>>>>unbeatable. .. this is where PHP craps all over Java and CF and .NET for
>>>>web apps.
>>>
>>>
>>>Can you be more specific on why you think PHP is better than .NET? Did you
>>>actually use ASP.NET?
>>>
>>>[/color]
>>
>>I pointed out _one aspect_ where php "craps all over" ASP.NET
>>I didn't say that PHP craps all over ASP.NET in every way. That aspect
>>is functionality.[/color]
>
>
> PHP might have more functionality but .NET is geared towars Windows only as
> expected from all MS products.[/color]

I have no problems with windows, and just because I think PHP is OK
doesn't mean I'm anti-microsoft, it's more IIS that irks me. But that's
just my opinion based on this product's horrific record of exploits.
Havint said that, at least I am willing to give ASP.NET a go anyway.
Have you at least done some tutorials in PHP let alone read a book on it?
[color=blue]
> No.. you will not find functions that
> support MySQL or Postgres but if you're on Windows, you really don't care
> and if you do want to use something like MySQL, there are free drivers out
> there that you can use. It's not a dead end.
>[/color]

Well as a windows programmer, I thought that would be obvious in light
of ODBC. PHP's database support, while comprehensive, is not remarkable.
It's the some total of all this and all the other functionality that
makes it remarkable.
[color=blue]
> I haven't used PHP but I am pretty sure it doesn't support server controls
> like a datagrid where you can drag and drop a grid, set some properties and
> have a grid where you can insert, edit and update values, do validation,
> sort and paginate right away. I am sure PHP can do all this but it's not
> going to be done in as productive way like asp.net. You will need to a ton
> of code where asp.net already has it done for you and if you need to etend
> on a server control, the open hooks are there.
> .NET is *fully* OO while php 5 is going there. You have visual
> inheritance, code behind in a file seperated from the html file...etc.
>[/color]

This is where it is futile trying to debate a language vs a framework.
PHP is a programming language with lots of functionaltiy. It is not
tightly bound to any one framework like ASP.NET. The same goes for CF.
For PHP and CF, frameworks are a separate thing and there are many of
them avilable to choose from, that's why you don't have HTML and web
controls.

It's quite simple really, ASP.NET API simply does not have the same
amound of functionality that PHP has. What it does have is a framework
which comes bundled with some UI elements.

There's nothing wrong with this in principle, but then you have to
address the framework as a separate issue, not as a language issue. I'm
pretty sure I made that perfectly clear in my last post. Let me make
some more comments on why I personally don't like the ASP.NET framework.

ASP.NET framework has it's archicture centrered around Visual Studio.
Now that's not neccesarily a bad thing if authoring environment is
paramount to your web apps development. Visual Studio is an excellent
package, I use it on a daily basis. To make things easy, the bundle a
bunch of layout (HTML markup) components that you can drag and drop.
They provide interfaces to make data-binding easy. The end reasult is
rapid development of functional web pages. That's great.
What I don't like about it is that the components it gives you are in a
dead-end format, they are in HTML. So again, we go back to the bad old
days of having compatability issues with user-agents -- not to mention
the obvious inflexibility of using a dead-end format. I think MS had to
do this in order to keep integration with Visual Studio simple. For a
lot of people (who don't know much about modern web apps and XML/XSLT),
this is fine, it "gets the job done". For these people it is not a
problem because they are usually the type that couldn't be bothered with
user-agent compatability and W3C standards.

If you're trying to deliver flexible non-dead-end solutions, then you
cannot use the bundled HTML and web controls. You will still have to
"roll you own" architecure. Now this is entirely possible, but then you
cannot sing the joys of ASP.NET which is basically "web apps for Visual
Studio" because now you're not really taking full advantage of the
Visual Studio components development methodology(?). You can then go on
to use ASP to develop propper XML/XSLT applications, but then it has no
serious advantages over any other web technology including Java, CF, and
PHP.

[color=blue]
>
> php has a ton of functions but you're still writing spaghetti code which is
> hard to maintain.
>[/color]

Well the choice is yours. If you feel compelled to write spagetti code,
you can. If you prefer to do object modelling, you can do that in PHP too.

If I chose, to, I could write spagettig code in ASP.NET too (without
trying too hard). At the end of the day, an ASP.NET page is == a single
page object instance which is just a collection of functions and variables.
[color=blue]
> When Mono on Linux is fully ready, then the ".NET works only in Windows"
> excuse is not going to fly anymore. Besides,[/color]

excuses? what excuses?
I've been following the Mono project with some interest. It will be
interesting to see if it will provide a strong enough alternative to the
MS version.

MS make all this fuss about how the Common Language Runtime is a
ratified standard and all, but then they don't grow the thing the same
as Sun does. Sun doesn't see the provision of J2EE platforms by other
vendors as a threat -- quite the opposite, they set up frameoworks and
specifications and certification programs to make it happen. That's why
you have IBM, BEA, Oracle as J2EE platform providers. I can't see this
ever happening with Microsoft. I don't see MS actively supporting
commercial companies like Sun does. If I have any complaints about Sun,
it's the lack of support they have given to JBoss but I think there are
other issues there that I am not aware of so I can't be too critical.
[color=blue]
> when you create a website, it
> doesn't matter where it's running on since all you care is that your site
> works right under all the common browsers.[/color]

In my experience, I haven't found this to be the case in real-life. You
may be able to take this position as an individual developer, but IT
departments are usually given a limited budget so they may not be able
to just rush out and purchase new talent because one of their developers
wants to use Visual Studio to make web apps. IT managers are sometimes
forced to make comprimises based on their given environment which
supports more than just web applications.
[color=blue]
> If it runs in Windows only, you
> hire people who know Windows and .NET to maintain it and they are plenty
> and more every day. .NET is not some old legacy language/framework where
> you worry that it it runs on a certain OS only. To many people and
> companies, cross platform compatibility is not an issue, specially in
> Windows only shops.[/color]

Anyway, I believe the original question was about CF vs PHP. As such, I
recomend PHP for medium to large apps in concert with a decent framework
(such as XAO). Otherwise, if you're basically a DreamWeaver person with
not much interest other than processing a couple of forms, the CF has
the shortest learning curve.

When it comes to speaking broadly about technology choices, I think the
discussion should be centrered on frameworks, and to that end, the best
one I've seen to date is Cocoon.

Karim, instead of being so religious about defending your favourite
product, do yourself a favour and try writing an app or two in something
else, starting with Cocoon :)

[Terence]

Re: PHP or COLDFUSION

Bryan Buchs wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Does PHP have a solid integrated IDE like Visual Studio.NET or C# Borland
>> whith commercial type debugging, profiling, prototyping, collaborative
>> work, etc? BTW, I am asking because I want to know and I am interested in
>> learn PHP if there are quality IDE's out there. (Dreamweaver is not
>> one of
>> them).[/color]
>
>
> Try Zend Studio. It's a nice IDE, plus you have the option (at least on
> windows) to have it configure a local development server for you, and to
> install all the current PHP documentation, too. It's a nice package.
>
>
> http://www.zend.com
>
>[/color]

As long as everyone is recomending IDE's, then I recomend Eclipse using
the phpeclipse.sour ceforge.net plugin. It's perfect for those of us who
switch between Java, XML, and PHP all the time and make heavy use of
CVS. It now has (beta) bundled FTP/WebDAV support too. It also has many
more plugins. It's more of an IDE platform then an IDE.

eclipse.org

[Terence]

Re: PHP or COLDFUSION

Lester Horwinkle wrote:
[color=blue]
> The beauty of CF is that you can do mountains of work with a quick click
> click click. Sure, I was a software developer for 20 years and wrote all
> sorts of code. But I appreciate the fact that "click" is faster, cheaper,
> easier. And anything that can be reduced to a no-brainer click ought NOT to
> be done the old, manual way by someone re-writing code that thousands of
> others have already written. Sure, class libraries foster reuse. But "click"
> fosters it even better.
>[/color]
[color=blue]
>
> Agreed. Java is too big. It's relatively difficult to learn. It changes over
> and over again, with every release.[/color]

You've got me thinking... Cocoon needs an IDE.

you should check out XSPs

for instance, here is an example of a Cocoon eXstensible Server Page
which is using data from the http://exist.sourceforge.net pure-XML database.


<xmldb:collecti on
xmlns:xmldb="ht tp://exist-db/transformer/1.0"
uri="xmldb:exis t:///db">
<!-- iterate through all rdf:Description elements containing the
term "computer" -->
<xmldb:for-each
query="//rdf:Description[dc:title &amp;= 'computer']"
from="0"
to="9"
sort-by="/dc:title">
<!-- output a book element for each entry -->
<book>
<!-- extract the title. There's only one title, so we use
select-node -->
<title><xmldb:s elect-node query="dc:title/text()"/></title>
<!-- extract the creators. There's probably more than one,
so we use a nested for-each -->
<xmldb:for-each query="dc:creat or/text()">
<creator><xmldb :current-node/></creator>
</xmldb:for-each>
</book>
</xmldb:for-each>
</xmldb:collectio n>

You've got all your tags for your tag-happy CF addicts pleased, but the
whole thing backends on Java (as you can do with CF anyway). Then you've
got modular support from various other "vendors" as shown in this
example snippet. Then you can decide whether you want the web developer
or the web designer to write your XSLT (skins) :)

Now all we need is an Eclipse plugin so your can click and drag your
controls and iterators with a "click click click". Then even the Visual
Studio web developers may have a reason to get weaned.

[Terence]

Re: PHP or COLDFUSION

Sorry, forgot to adress your other three points...

Karim wrote:[color=blue]
> .NET is *fully* OO while php 5 is going there. You have visual
> inheritance, code behind in a file seperated from the html file...etc.
>[/color]

OO:
"Oriented" the word according to at least one dictionary means:
"Adjusted or located in relation to surroundings or circumstances;
sometimes used in combination"

"Object Oriented" therefore means to me "[programming objects] Adjusted
or located in relation to [other programming objects]". So, if I write
my code using classes and object instances, and I model my objects so
that they relate to each other, then I have writeen object oritented
code. Surely I don't need to be told that my code is object oriented
because the writing on the product packaging tells me that it is "object
oriented". Surely if the programming language allows a non class/object
programming layout, that doesn't mean that the class/object alternative
is now non-existant?

Just what exactly do you mean by "fully" anyway? Maybe you can use a
reference to another language like say, smalltalk, to illustrate your point?



Visual Inheritance:
For me, writing a modern we app neccisarily involves XML and subsequent
XSLT if your want [X]HTML. So you're "visual inheritance" is easily
taken care of inside of <xsl:template/> using <xsl:apply-templates
select="[[condition for inheritance]]" />


Code Behind:
Oh please, give me a break. Even the name "code behind" should
immediately make you suspecious of some marketing person trying to make
a datsun sound like a limmo. A code-behind is nothing but a glorified
"include". They've been around since mod_ssi. All templated scripting
languages ASP, PHP, CF, Virtuflex, iHTML, JSP have this feature, it
really is no biggie. OK, so it's ever so sligtly more than an include --
a "custom tag" definition if your like. This hardy means that you are
separating your code from your layout. As long as you are mixing your
programming tags <asp:*/> inside your HTML, you are not separating the
code from the layout. Same goes for all of them including PHP.
One of the biggest mennaces in the PHP framework landscape is the
proliferation of proprietary templating systems why try to "separate
code from layout". See my rant on why this and your "code behind" thing
is not helping the situation.

http://www.sitepointforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=123769

(user-name tezza)
Your code should be producing nothing but content. XML is suited to
represent this because it is not only an adequate specification for
complex structured data encapsulation but mainly because it is widely
accepted across all platforms in the industry. Once you have this
content, then your business code is done, finnished, completed, gone!
Then you have a range of options on how you want to channel this content
including multiple ways of reaching dead-end formats such as HTML. And
if it is not too difficult for you, then XSLT is well suited for this.
This is how you write ASP.NET pages properly. Unfortunately, Miscrosoft
are not encouraging this with the stupid HTML and web controls. This is
a bit surprising considdering that they has so much to do with the
development of XSLT. Look in the .NET API, there is decent support for
XML/XSLT. If ASP.NET is your weapon of choice, "Code behind" is not a
solution to business-code/layout-logic separation. It is a valid
solution to something else (modular programming), but not layout separation.

[Terence]

Re: PHP or COLDFUSION

>>They are both useless. Learn MS dotnet. C# or VBnet. That is the[color=blue][color=green]
>>future for at least the next 10 years.[/color][/color]

whoever said this (as the original post illudes me) needs to be smacked
over the head with a reality bat.

the reality is that 10 years is a very long time in IT and no one has a
crystal ball that will see past the next two. The reality is that there
will always be multiple technologies avilable for applications
development. The reality is that not every developer is a sheep needing
to be lead by shepherd vendor X. Perhaps a better analogy would be
lemming rather than sheep in the case of .NET

[R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah]

Re: PHP or COLDFUSION

Karim <karim3411@yaho o.moc> wrote in message news:<inctmppf0 k91.177bmk0jwhq 5b$.dlg@40tude. net>...[color=blue]
> On 4 Nov 2003 21:05:12 -0800, R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah wrote:
>[color=green]
> > Karim <karim3411@yaho o.moc> wrote in message news:<yw15yfn5q g6q.16x05a4dfjc mj.dlg@40tude.n et>...[color=darkred]
> >> Can you be more specific on why you think PHP is better than .NET? Did you
> >> actually use ASP.NET?[/color]
> >
> > BTW, have you ever used the cool PHP?[/color]
>
> No.. but I used the cool ASP.NET.[/color]

Cool ASP.NET???!!!! You please learn the divine PHP
[color=blue]
> Does PHP have a solid integrated IDE like Visual Studio.NET or C# Borland
> whith commercial type debugging, profiling, prototyping, collaborative
> work, etc? BTW, I am asking because I want to know and I am interested in
> learn PHP if there are quality IDE's out there. (Dreamweaver is not one of
> them).[/color]

Zend has many features.

I personally use both PHPEdit ( http://www.phpedit.net/ ) and DW
(for HTMLs). PHPEdit is fast and aesthetically designed. Though it is
not much matured, you can use it without any problem. You may even
"demand" (!!) some new features as the PHPEdit authors are really
cool.

---
"The world is too dangerous to live in—not because of the people who
do evil, but because of the people who sit and let it happen"---Albert
Einstein
Email: rrjanbiah-at-Y!com

[Karim]

Re: PHP or COLDFUSION

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 11:27:18 +1100, Terence wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> PHP might have more functionality but .NET is geared towars Windows only as
>> expected from all MS products.[/color]
>
> I have no problems with windows, and just because I think PHP is OK
> doesn't mean I'm anti-microsoft, it's more IIS that irks me. But that's
> just my opinion based on this product's horrific record of exploits.
> Havint said that, at least I am willing to give ASP.NET a go anyway.
> Have you at least done some tutorials in PHP let alone read a book on it?[/color]

These major exploits, maybe 3 of them, happened quite some time ago. So far
I haven't heard of new ones. Apache suffers from them too. We hear about
website defacements, many of them are on Apache/Linux.
PHP doesn't offer anything that I can't do in ASP.NET. No sense in learning
two different languages.

[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>> No.. you will not find functions that
>> support MySQL or Postgres but if you're on Windows, you really don't care
>> and if you do want to use something like MySQL, there are free drivers out
>> there that you can use. It's not a dead end.
>>[/color]
>
> Well as a windows programmer, I thought that would be obvious in light
> of ODBC. PHP's database support, while comprehensive, is not remarkable.
> It's the some total of all this and all the other functionality that
> makes it remarkable.[/color]

It's the productivity that matters.
What are the capabilities of debugging in PHP using the best IDE? Can you
set breakpoints, resume running, view and edit all variables in debug mode,
line by line trace output, try-catch-throw error trapping ..etc?

[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>> I haven't used PHP but I am pretty sure it doesn't support server controls
>> like a datagrid where you can drag and drop a grid, set some properties and
>> have a grid where you can insert, edit and update values, do validation,
>> sort and paginate right away. I am sure PHP can do all this but it's not
>> going to be done in as productive way like asp.net. You will need to a ton
>> of code where asp.net already has it done for you and if you need to etend
>> on a server control, the open hooks are there.
>> .NET is *fully* OO while php 5 is going there. You have visual
>> inheritance, code behind in a file seperated from the html file...etc.
>>[/color]
>
> This is where it is futile trying to debate a language vs a framework.
> PHP is a programming language with lots of functionaltiy. It is not
> tightly bound to any one framework like ASP.NET. The same goes for CF.
> For PHP and CF, frameworks are a separate thing and there are many of
> them avilable to choose from, that's why you don't have HTML and web
> controls.[/color]

The funtionality in PHP is based on available libraries. The .NET framework
is also a set of libraries. Same thing.. different nomenclature. You take
away php libraries and php becomes very weak. In the Windows world, both
are implemented as DLLs.

One advantage of .NET is that you can build web applications, Windows apps
,Windows forms, Web services. Basically anything which means you learn one
language and one framework. PHP is good for web development only.
Web controls in ASP.NET are high productivity tools. If I want a a tree
view or a grid, I plug them in and use them right away. They come with
asp.net and are free.
In php, you have to code them yourself or buy them and if you want to
deploy them, you have to include them with your site.



[color=blue]
> ASP.NET framework has it's archicture centrered around Visual Studio.
> Now that's not neccesarily a bad thing if authoring environment is
> paramount to your web apps development. Visual Studio is an excellent
> package, I use it on a daily basis. To make things easy, the bundle a
> bunch of layout (HTML markup) components that you can drag and drop.
> They provide interfaces to make data-binding easy. The end reasult is
> rapid development of functional web pages. That's great.[/color]

No. Visual Studio is a tool. .NET is not tied around VS. You can write
asp.net apps in NotePad, in Web Matrix, Borland's C# Builder. VS is just an
IDE to increase your producivity. Everything VS does is eventually
converted into html in aspx files and/or code in code behind files. You can
do this manually if you want to. but why.


[color=blue]
> What I don't like about it is that the components it gives you are in a
> dead-end format, they are in HTML. So again, we go back to the bad old
> days of having compatability issues with user-agents -- not to mention
> the obvious inflexibility of using a dead-end format. I think MS had to
> do this in order to keep integration with Visual Studio simple. For a
> lot of people (who don't know much about modern web apps and XML/XSLT),
> this is fine, it "gets the job done". For these people it is not a
> problem because they are usually the type that couldn't be bothered with
> user-agent compatability and W3C standards.[/color]


Of course they have to be in html. Otherwise how can they be displayed in a
web browser. Everything you do in any scripting language will be converted
into html, Javascript, CSS... etc. If there are compatibility issues (which
I haven't seen) then code in pure hand coded html in asp.net.
asp.net produces html so what does a deadend format mean exactly?

[color=blue]
> If you're trying to deliver flexible non-dead-end solutions, then you
> cannot use the bundled HTML and web controls. You will still have to
> "roll you own" architecure. Now this is entirely possible, but then you
> cannot sing the joys of ASP.NET which is basically "web apps for Visual
> Studio" because now you're not really taking full advantage of the
> Visual Studio components development methodology(?). You can then go on
> to use ASP to develop propper XML/XSLT applications, but then it has no
> serious advantages over any other web technology including Java, CF, and
> PHP.[/color]

Do you have an example of a web control in VS that produces html that
doesn't display correctly in all browsers?

Some web designers develop for Intranets and specific websites that can use
IE only. VS should be perfectly fine for them.


[color=blue]
>
>[color=green]
>>
>> php has a ton of functions but you're still writing spaghetti code which is
>> hard to maintain.
>>[/color]
>
> Well the choice is yours. If you feel compelled to write spagetti code,
> you can. If you prefer to do object modelling, you can do that in PHP too.
>
> If I chose, to, I could write spagettig code in ASP.NET too (without
> trying too hard). At the end of the day, an ASP.NET page is == a single
> page object instance which is just a collection of functions and variables.[/color]

How's that different than php and any scripting langauge? Your final
objective is a web page, regardless of the language and tool you used.

[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>> When Mono on Linux is fully ready, then the ".NET works only in Windows"
>> excuse is not going to fly anymore. Besides,[/color]
>
> excuses? what excuses?[/color]

The excuse of .NET and ASP.NET works in Windows only. No cross platform
compatibility.
[color=blue]
> I've been following the Mono project with some interest. It will be
> interesting to see if it will provide a strong enough alternative to the
> MS version.
>
> MS make all this fuss about how the Common Language Runtime is a
> ratified standard and all, but then they don't grow the thing the same
> as Sun does. Sun doesn't see the provision of J2EE platforms by other
> vendors as a threat -- quite the opposite, they set up frameoworks and
> specifications and certification programs to make it happen. That's why
> you have IBM, BEA, Oracle as J2EE platform providers. I can't see this
> ever happening with Microsoft. I don't see MS actively supporting
> commercial companies like Sun does. If I have any complaints about Sun,
> it's the lack of support they have given to JBoss but I think there are
> other issues there that I am not aware of so I can't be too critical.[/color]

ASP.NET 2.0 is coming out soon and yes MS is enhancing it. Java/J2EE is
older and therefore more mature. BTW, I thought we are talking about PHP
and you're diverting into a different topic.

[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > when you create a website, it
>> doesn't matter where it's running on since all you care is that your site
>> works right under all the common browsers.[/color]
>
> In my experience, I haven't found this to be the case in real-life. You
> may be able to take this position as an individual developer, but IT
> departments are usually given a limited budget so they may not be able
> to just rush out and purchase new talent because one of their developers
> wants to use Visual Studio to make web apps. IT managers are sometimes
> forced to make comprimises based on their given environment which
> supports more than just web applications.[/color]

Many small companies are Windows only. When they want to develop web sites,
they will likely choose a Microsoft product and they do not have to pay
extra for the tools. IIS, ASP, .NET are free in Windows. They do not need
to retrain their developers. A VB developer can easily pick up ASP and use
it.

[color=blue][color=green]
>> If it runs in Windows only, you
>> hire people who know Windows and .NET to maintain it and they are plenty
>> and more every day. .NET is not some old legacy language/framework where
>> you worry that it it runs on a certain OS only. To many people and
>> companies, cross platform compatibility is not an issue, specially in
>> Windows only shops.[/color]
>
> Anyway, I believe the original question was about CF vs PHP. As such, I
> recomend PHP for medium to large apps in concert with a decent framework
> (such as XAO). Otherwise, if you're basically a DreamWeaver person with
> not much interest other than processing a couple of forms, the CF has
> the shortest learning curve.
>
> When it comes to speaking broadly about technology choices, I think the
> discussion should be centrered on frameworks, and to that end, the best
> one I've seen to date is Cocoon.[/color]

So what's your gripe about .NET framework if now you're saying one should
concentrate on frameworks? Remember I said that .NET is a framework for
building *any* kind of app for Windows. web, Windows, mobile, web services.
With C#, you learn and use a single language and learn one framework. I
don't see the same advantage with php.

A strong language, a comprehensive framework, a mature productive IDE.
You need to tell me what's so compelling about PHP that I should switch.
You need to provide proof, examples case studies. Otherwise, we can talk
forever.

[color=blue]
> Karim, instead of being so religious about defending your favourite
> product, do yourself a favour and try writing an app or two in something
> else, starting with Cocoon :)[/color]

If you're debating with me, then you're religious too with your opinions.
I have no interest in learning php. I would rather be a master of one
language and framework than an ok with two. .NET is huge and I learn new
stuff every day. It will be unproductive to add a new language and
technology to my learning capacity.

The point is that if what I am using does everything I need it to do plus
much more and I am very productive with it, why would I look at something
else. You have not convinced me otherwise.

I will be interested in why something is done better in php than asp.net.

I gave you an example of a datagrid web control in asp.net. Many people
find it very productive. Now tell me what I can do in php better or faster
than in asp.net. Convince me with an example. Let's assume we both are
using SQL Server and IIS.

Karim

[R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah]

Re: PHP or COLDFUSION

"Lester Horwinkle" <lhorwinkleNOSP AM@NOSPAMusa.co m> wrote in message news:<8WYpb.339 36$SV2.22806@bi gnews3.bellsout h.net>...[color=blue]
> I've embedded my commentary ...
>
> "Terence" <tk.lists@fastm ail.fm> wrote in message
> news:3FA76DFF.4 080508@fastmail .fm...[color=green]
> > English Teacher wrote:[/color]
>[color=green]
> > Personally, I think CF is good for quick construction of web services
> > using CFCs, particularly because it has such good database support.[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> The beauty of CF is that you can do mountains of work with a quick click
> click click. Sure, I was a software developer for 20 years and wrote all
> sorts of code. But I appreciate the fact that "click" is faster, cheaper,
> easier. And anything that can be reduced to a no-brainer click ought NOT to
> be done the old, manual way by someone re-writing code that thousands of
> others have already written. Sure, class libraries foster reuse. But "click"
> fosters it even better.[/color]

Nonsense. We're talking about PHP vs. CF---*not* PHP tools vs CF
tools. In case, if you're not a Programmer but you're a drag-drop
clicker, then number of such tools--even enough DW addons are
available.

---
"Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The
important thing is to not stop questioning."---Albert Einstein
Email: rrjanbiah-at-Y!com

[R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah]

Re: PHP or COLDFUSION

Karim <karim3411@yaho o.moc> wrote in message news:<10eplihq5 33ke$.1096iv9uh 05wd$.dlg@40tud e.net>...[color=blue]
> On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 11:27:18 +1100, Terence wrote:[/color]

<snip>
[color=blue]
> I will be interested in why something is done better in php than asp.net.[/color]

It's like telling moon is a dangerous place before
witnessing/going there. You first learn a bit of PHP and then make any
judgement. Most of the PHP lovers here are actually moved from (esp.
me) all the nonsense languages including the one you vouch.
[color=blue]
> I gave you an example of a datagrid web control in asp.net. Many people
> find it very productive. Now tell me what I can do in php better or faster
> than in asp.net. Convince me with an example. Let's assume we both are
> using SQL Server and IIS.[/color]

I don't want to waste my time in explaining PHP vs. PHP tools.
But, there are number of better such tools are freely available.

---
"Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The
important thing is to not stop questioning."---Albert Einstein
Email: rrjanbiah-at-Y!com

[Karim]

Re: PHP or COLDFUSION

On 6 Nov 2003 21:02:32 -0800, R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah wrote:
[color=blue]
> Karim <karim3411@yaho o.moc> wrote in message news:<10eplihq5 33ke$.1096iv9uh 05wd$.dlg@40tud e.net>...[color=green]
>> On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 11:27:18 +1100, Terence wrote:[/color]
>
> <snip>
>[color=green]
>> I will be interested in why something is done better in php than asp.net.[/color]
>
> It's like telling moon is a dangerous place before
> witnessing/going there. You first learn a bit of PHP and then make any
> judgement. Most of the PHP lovers here are actually moved from (esp.
> me) all the nonsense languages including the one you vouch.[/color]

I am afraid your idea does not work. You don't look at a different tool or
language unless the one you use doesn't fit your needs.
Your last comment suggests you have a one sided opinion without giving any
solid proof.


[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>> I gave you an example of a datagrid web control in asp.net. Many people
>> find it very productive. Now tell me what I can do in php better or faster
>> than in asp.net. Convince me with an example. Let's assume we both are
>> using SQL Server and IIS.[/color]
>
> I don't want to waste my time in explaining PHP vs. PHP tools.
> But, there are number of better such tools are freely available.[/color]

It's a waste of time when someone says something is available and doesn't
mention the name, where it can be had ..etc.

karim

[Lester Horwinkle]

Re: PHP or COLDFUSION


"R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah" <ng4rrjanbiah@r ediffmail.com> wrote in message
news:abc4d8b8.0 311062053.4a51f 50c@posting.goo gle.com...[color=blue]
> Nonsense. We're talking about PHP vs. CF---*not* PHP tools vs CF
> tools. In case, if you're not a Programmer but you're a drag-drop
> clicker, then number of such tools--even enough DW addons are
> available.[/color]

This is not about labeling people. Actually, I'm both. But clicking is
cheaper than coding. Business prefers cheaper.

It's clear that not everything can be done by clicking. But when it can,
it's foolish to write code to produce the same results.

Anyway, what tools for PHP can compare with Dreamweaver MX for CF?

[R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah]

Re: PHP or COLDFUSION

Karim <karim3411@yaho o.moc> wrote in message news:<6kcqmb0zo nqi$.14iu69pisb ftb$.dlg@40tude .net>...[color=blue]
> On 6 Nov 2003 21:02:32 -0800, R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah wrote:
>[color=green]
> > Karim <karim3411@yaho o.moc> wrote in message news:<10eplihq5 33ke$.1096iv9uh 05wd$.dlg@40tud e.net>...[color=darkred]
> >> On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 11:27:18 +1100, Terence wrote:[/color]
> >
> > <snip>
> >[color=darkred]
> >> I will be interested in why something is done better in php than asp.net.[/color]
> >
> > It's like telling moon is a dangerous place before
> > witnessing/going there. You first learn a bit of PHP and then make any
> > judgement. Most of the PHP lovers here are actually moved from (esp.
> > me) all the nonsense languages including the one you vouch.[/color]
>
> I am afraid your idea does not work. You don't look at a different tool or
> language unless the one you use doesn't fit your needs.[/color]

Then why you want to know the PHP?? My point is this: don't vouch
anything before you try something.
[color=blue]
> Your last comment suggests you have a one sided opinion without giving any
> solid proof.[/color]

Like any language, PHP also came out of disatisfaction over
existing languages. Almost all PHP lovers here are moved from others
out of disatisfaction over existing other languages. The popularity of
PHP is growing---all because of the people who dare to try it and see
the difference. We PHP programmers here are ___not___ marketing
PHP---'cos there is no need to convince the *Programmers*.

[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> I gave you an example of a datagrid web control in asp.net. Many people
> >> find it very productive. Now tell me what I can do in php better or faster
> >> than in asp.net. Convince me with an example. Let's assume we both are
> >> using SQL Server and IIS.[/color]
> >
> > I don't want to waste my time in explaining PHP vs. PHP tools.
> > But, there are number of better such tools are freely available.[/color]
>
> It's a waste of time when someone says something is available and doesn't
> mention the name, where it can be had ..etc.[/color]

Not necessarily. It is certainly not necessary for the
programmers.

---
"Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The
important thing is to not stop questioning."---Albert Einstein
Email: rrjanbiah-at-Y!com