New to MySQL and I'm confused!

[Andrew DeFaria]

Re: New to MySQL and I'm confused!

Ed Seedhouse wrote:
[color=blue]
> Actually Access can create dynamic web pages from an Access database
> if you don't mind a fairly ugly and simplistic result. I prefer to use
> PHP to create dynamic web pages, personally, but it can be done, after
> a fashion, from Access just by point and click if you'll accept the
> defaults.[/color]

Just goes to show you how much I know about Access (i.e. nothing).
However, realistically, if you are going to develop web pages that
access databases for real you're gonna have to learn at at least those
languages (if not more or different sets).
--
E-mail returned to sender -- insufficient voltage.

[Andrew DeFaria]

Re: New to MySQL and I'm confused!

Ed Seedhouse wrote:
[color=blue]
> For someone moving "up" from Access to MySQL the transition really
> requires learning *three* languages and that's not easy. You have to
> learn SQL, PHP or Perl, and then you have to learn to make HTML web pages.[/color]

That's making the assumption that the goal is to have an HTML page and
to manipulate a DB on the other end. Seems to me that even Access users,
given such requirements, would need to learn SQL, a programming
language and HTML to do the same.

--
3 kinds of people: those who can count & those who can't.

[mcnewsxp]

Re: New to MySQL and I'm confused!

most developers who have never used access have many misconceptions about
and kind accept heresay as judgement. truth is you can do tons of *real*
stuff with it and it is heavily relied on in many businesses. it is even
somewhat scalable whn you link to a SQL or other ODBC backend. i din't know
this either until i was in an environment where it is used by people who are
not programmers but must maintain lots of data. they invariably develop
themselves into a corner and need a pro to fix things, but it is pretty
interesting to see what bright people can do with access without proper
training.

however, i would not choose it and i would not reckomend it to anyone for
anything accept maybe a modeling tool for someone who doesn't program. once
a spec is prototyped i'd use a true DB and dev tools.

[mcnewsxp]

Re: New to MySQL and I'm confused!

most developers who have never used access have many misconceptions about
and kind accept heresay as judgement. truth is you can do tons of *real*
stuff with it and it is heavily relied on in many businesses. it is even
somewhat scalable whn you link to a SQL or other ODBC backend. i din't know
this either until i was in an environment where it is used by people who are
not programmers but must maintain lots of data. they invariably develop
themselves into a corner and need a pro to fix things, but it is pretty
interesting to see what bright people can do with access without proper
training.

however, i would not choose it and i would not reckomend it to anyone for
anything accept maybe a modeling tool for someone who doesn't program. once
a spec is prototyped i'd use a true DB and dev tools.

[Ed Seedhouse]

Re: New to MySQL and I'm confused!

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:32:22 -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
[color=blue]
> Ed Seedhouse wrote:
>[color=green]
>> For someone moving "up" from Access to MySQL the
>> transition really requires learning *three* languages
>> and that's not easy. You have to learn SQL, PHP or Perl,
>> and then you have to learn to make HTML web pages.[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> That's making the assumption that the goal is to have an HTML
> page and to manipulate a DB on the other end. Seems to me that
> even Access users, given such requirements, would need to learn
> SQL, a programming language and HTML to do the same.[/color]

Actually Access can create dynamic web pages from an Access database
if you don't mind a fairly ugly and simplistic result. I prefer to
use PHP to create dynamic web pages, personally, but it can be done,
after a fashion, from Access just by point and click if you'll accept
the defaults.

Ed

[Andrew DeFaria]

Re: New to MySQL and I'm confused!

Ed Seedhouse wrote:
[color=blue]
> Actually Access can create dynamic web pages from an Access database
> if you don't mind a fairly ugly and simplistic result. I prefer to use
> PHP to create dynamic web pages, personally, but it can be done, after
> a fashion, from Access just by point and click if you'll accept the
> defaults.[/color]

Just goes to show you how much I know about Access (i.e. nothing).
However, realistically, if you are going to develop web pages that
access databases for real you're gonna have to learn at at least those
languages (if not more or different sets).
--
E-mail returned to sender -- insufficient voltage.

[Ed Seedhouse]

Re: New to MySQL and I'm confused!

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:39:25 -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
[color=blue]
> Ed Seedhouse wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Actually Access can create dynamic web pages from an Access database[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> Just goes to show you how much I know about Access (i.e. nothing).
> However, realistically, if you are going to develop web pages that
> access databases for real you're gonna have to learn at at least
> those languages (if not more or different sets).[/color]

Not really. IF you combine Access with Microsoft SQL Server you
can do all of that with VBA and ADO using Access as a front end and
SQL Server on the back end. Of course you have to pay out lots and
lots of money for all those licences, but lots of big companies with
big databases to manage have don it.

If you want to do it *cheap*, however, Linux or FreeBSD along with
MySQL or PosgreSQL, Apache as a server and php, perl, python or
the like, is the way to go and it can compete quite nicely with
the big boys. Indeed some of the big boys use it. More and more
all the time.

But let's not call Access a "toy" because, however you might feel
about Microsoft it is most definitely not a "toy" or anything like
a toy. Give the devil his due.

[Ed Seedhouse]

Re: New to MySQL and I'm confused!

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:39:25 -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
[color=blue]
> Ed Seedhouse wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Actually Access can create dynamic web pages from an Access database[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> Just goes to show you how much I know about Access (i.e. nothing).
> However, realistically, if you are going to develop web pages that
> access databases for real you're gonna have to learn at at least
> those languages (if not more or different sets).[/color]

Not really. IF you combine Access with Microsoft SQL Server you
can do all of that with VBA and ADO using Access as a front end and
SQL Server on the back end. Of course you have to pay out lots and
lots of money for all those licences, but lots of big companies with
big databases to manage have don it.

If you want to do it *cheap*, however, Linux or FreeBSD along with
MySQL or PosgreSQL, Apache as a server and php, perl, python or
the like, is the way to go and it can compete quite nicely with
the big boys. Indeed some of the big boys use it. More and more
all the time.

But let's not call Access a "toy" because, however you might feel
about Microsoft it is most definitely not a "toy" or anything like
a toy. Give the devil his due.

[Andrew DeFaria]

Re: New to MySQL and I'm confused!

mcnewsxp wrote:
[color=blue]
> most developers who have never used access have many misconceptions
> about and kind accept heresay as judgement. truth is you can do tons
> of *real* stuff with it and it is heavily relied on in many
> businesses. it is even somewhat scalable whn you link to a SQL or
> other ODBC backend.[/color]

But isn't Access supposed to be it's own DB? Why then would you be
linking it to an SQL or other backend?!? Or are you just saying that it
doesn't scale well (IOW it's more a toy than a tool).
[color=blue]
> i din't know this either until i was in an environment where it is
> used by people who are not programmers but must maintain lots of data.
> they invariably develop themselves into a corner and need a pro to fix
> things, but it is pretty interesting to see what bright people can do
> with access without proper training.[/color]

A small business can also probably do the same with paper and pencil.
[color=blue]
> however, i would not choose it and i would not reckomend it to anyone
> for anything accept maybe a modeling tool for someone who doesn't
> program. once a spec is prototyped i'd use a true DB and dev tools.[/color]


--
A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking.

[Andrew DeFaria]

Re: New to MySQL and I'm confused!

mcnewsxp wrote:
[color=blue]
> most developers who have never used access have many misconceptions
> about and kind accept heresay as judgement. truth is you can do tons
> of *real* stuff with it and it is heavily relied on in many
> businesses. it is even somewhat scalable whn you link to a SQL or
> other ODBC backend.[/color]

But isn't Access supposed to be it's own DB? Why then would you be
linking it to an SQL or other backend?!? Or are you just saying that it
doesn't scale well (IOW it's more a toy than a tool).
[color=blue]
> i din't know this either until i was in an environment where it is
> used by people who are not programmers but must maintain lots of data.
> they invariably develop themselves into a corner and need a pro to fix
> things, but it is pretty interesting to see what bright people can do
> with access without proper training.[/color]

A small business can also probably do the same with paper and pencil.
[color=blue]
> however, i would not choose it and i would not reckomend it to anyone
> for anything accept maybe a modeling tool for someone who doesn't
> program. once a spec is prototyped i'd use a true DB and dev tools.[/color]


--
A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking.

[mcnewsxp]

Re: New to MySQL and I'm confused!

most developers who have never used access have many misconceptions about
and kind accept heresay as judgement. truth is you can do tons of *real*
stuff with it and it is heavily relied on in many businesses. it is even
somewhat scalable whn you link to a SQL or other ODBC backend. i din't know
this either until i was in an environment where it is used by people who are
not programmers but must maintain lots of data. they invariably develop
themselves into a corner and need a pro to fix things, but it is pretty
interesting to see what bright people can do with access without proper
training.

however, i would not choose it and i would not reckomend it to anyone for
anything accept maybe a modeling tool for someone who doesn't program. once
a spec is prototyped i'd use a true DB and dev tools.

[Andrew DeFaria]

Re: New to MySQL and I'm confused!

Ed Seedhouse wrote:
[color=blue]
> On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:39:25 -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Ed Seedhouse wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Actually Access can create dynamic web pages from an Access database[/color]
>>
>> Just goes to show you how much I know about Access (i.e. nothing).
>> However, realistically, if you are going to develop web pages that
>> access databases for real you're gonna have to learn at at least
>> those languages (if not more or different sets).[/color]
>
> Not really. IF you combine Access with Microsoft SQL Server[/color]

If Access is a DB then why are you combining it with a DB?!?
[color=blue]
> you can do all of that with VBA and ADO using Access as a front end
> and SQL Server on the back end.[/color]

Which means you need to learn SQL, VBA (instead of Perl/Php) and HTML
anyway (that is if you are doing anything right and not simply accepting
all the default generations of the web page and/or DB which are ugly and
rarely acceptable in anything worth while).
[color=blue]
> Of course you have to pay out lots and lots of money for all those
> licences, but lots of big companies with
> big databases to manage have don it.[/color]

Yes and you get to pay a lot to boot! Many companies to fall for this
but any company concern about performance/portability and scalability
doesn't.
[color=blue]
> If you want to do it *cheap*, however, Linux or FreeBSD along with
> MySQL or PosgreSQL, Apache as a server and php, perl, python or the
> like, is the way to go and it can compete quite nicely with the big
> boys. Indeed some of the big boys use it. More and more all the time.[/color]

Because they are figuring out that the cost effectiveness, scalability
and additional complexity of MS solution quite simply is not worth it.
[color=blue]
> But let's not call Access a "toy" because, however you might feel
> about Microsoft it is most definitely not a "toy" or anything like a
> toy. Give the devil his due.[/color]

It's a toy that some people take too seriously. It's good for
prototyping and perhaps small jobs.
--
Just what part of "NO" didn't you understand?

[Andrew DeFaria]

Re: New to MySQL and I'm confused!

Ed Seedhouse wrote:
[color=blue]
> On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:39:25 -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Ed Seedhouse wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Actually Access can create dynamic web pages from an Access database[/color]
>>
>> Just goes to show you how much I know about Access (i.e. nothing).
>> However, realistically, if you are going to develop web pages that
>> access databases for real you're gonna have to learn at at least
>> those languages (if not more or different sets).[/color]
>
> Not really. IF you combine Access with Microsoft SQL Server[/color]

If Access is a DB then why are you combining it with a DB?!?
[color=blue]
> you can do all of that with VBA and ADO using Access as a front end
> and SQL Server on the back end.[/color]

Which means you need to learn SQL, VBA (instead of Perl/Php) and HTML
anyway (that is if you are doing anything right and not simply accepting
all the default generations of the web page and/or DB which are ugly and
rarely acceptable in anything worth while).
[color=blue]
> Of course you have to pay out lots and lots of money for all those
> licences, but lots of big companies with
> big databases to manage have don it.[/color]

Yes and you get to pay a lot to boot! Many companies to fall for this
but any company concern about performance/portability and scalability
doesn't.
[color=blue]
> If you want to do it *cheap*, however, Linux or FreeBSD along with
> MySQL or PosgreSQL, Apache as a server and php, perl, python or the
> like, is the way to go and it can compete quite nicely with the big
> boys. Indeed some of the big boys use it. More and more all the time.[/color]

Because they are figuring out that the cost effectiveness, scalability
and additional complexity of MS solution quite simply is not worth it.
[color=blue]
> But let's not call Access a "toy" because, however you might feel
> about Microsoft it is most definitely not a "toy" or anything like a
> toy. Give the devil his due.[/color]

It's a toy that some people take too seriously. It's good for
prototyping and perhaps small jobs.
--
Just what part of "NO" didn't you understand?

[Ed Seedhouse]

Re: New to MySQL and I'm confused!

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:39:25 -0800, Andrew DeFaria wrote:
[color=blue]
> Ed Seedhouse wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Actually Access can create dynamic web pages from an Access database[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> Just goes to show you how much I know about Access (i.e. nothing).
> However, realistically, if you are going to develop web pages that
> access databases for real you're gonna have to learn at at least
> those languages (if not more or different sets).[/color]

Not really. IF you combine Access with Microsoft SQL Server you
can do all of that with VBA and ADO using Access as a front end and
SQL Server on the back end. Of course you have to pay out lots and
lots of money for all those licences, but lots of big companies with
big databases to manage have don it.

If you want to do it *cheap*, however, Linux or FreeBSD along with
MySQL or PosgreSQL, Apache as a server and php, perl, python or
the like, is the way to go and it can compete quite nicely with
the big boys. Indeed some of the big boys use it. More and more
all the time.

But let's not call Access a "toy" because, however you might feel
about Microsoft it is most definitely not a "toy" or anything like
a toy. Give the devil his due.

[Jeff]

Re: New to MySQL and I'm confused!

"Andrew DeFaria" <Andrew@DeFaria .com> wrote[color=blue]
> But isn't Access supposed to be it's own DB? Why then would you be
> linking it to an SQL or other backend?!?[/color]
..
Access has a front end and a back end. They can be used entirely separate
from each other.

Example 1
Access front end
One Access application can easily utilize many different data sources. In
the past, I had a single Access app which used Access, text files, Excel
files, MS SQL and MS Exchange for data sources. I could read and send mail,
plus read and write to text, Excel and SQL.

Example 2
Access back end
I have built ASP pages which use an Access *.mdb file for data storage. It
allows using small portable files behind your web pages, no database server
is required. I think (I haven't used PHP/MySql) this is very similar to PHP
and MySQL. The connection points to a file instead of a server.

These days I rely mostly on ASP and MS SQL. Access does not fit my needs.

But for many situations it works great. And heavy use of Access taught me
all about data manipulation, SQL syntax, ODBC, ADO and Visual Basic.