Javascript and Microsoft Windows

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  • Peter Olcott

    #31
    Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows


    "Dag Sunde" <me@dagsunde.co mwrote in message
    news:44e37f62$1 @news.wineasy.s e...
    Martin Honnen wrote:
    >Dag Sunde wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>JavaScript is not a stand-alone programming language. It always
    >>runs in a "Host".
    >>>
    >>When it runs in the Windows Scripting Host, it can access
    >>and manipulate the objects and properties exposed to it by the WSH.
    >>There is no objects exposed by the WSH that enables javascript
    >>to analyze the visual state other applications external to the WSH.
    >>
    >Many Windows applications like Internet Explorer or Word or Excel can
    >be automated by script run with WSH. The Windows Shell itself can be
    >automated e.g. the following script grabs all open Internet Explorer
    >browser windows and outputs details about the document title and the
    >number of forms (document.forms .length):
    >>
    >var shell = new ActiveXObject(' Shell.Applicati on');
    >var windows = shell.Windows() ;
    >for (var i = 0, l = windows.Count; i < l; i++) {
    > try {
    > var document = windows(i).docu ment;
    > WScript.Echo("d ocument.title: \"" + document.title +
    >"\"; forms.length: " + document.forms. length);
    > }
    > catch (e) {}
    >}
    >>
    >Thus J(ava)Script (or VBScript) used with WSH can get details about
    >the visual state of Windows application that expose automation
    >interfaces.
    >
    You can get the information the application choose to expose thru its
    automation interface, nothing more.
    >
    The point of my previous post was to illustrate that while JS can,
    in some cases give you limited information about some applications
    it can *not* be used to take total control over all types of apps
    possibly running on a pc.
    >
    (And that's what the OP claims his system can do).
    >
    The question here is: "Can Javascript be used to analyze the current
    state of every visual control the user can interact with, in every
    application, regardless og automation interface, and interact with it?
    >
    The answer is no!
    >
    --
    Dag.
    >
    >
    I came here for the purpose of the question turned around. Can any possible
    program take complete control of every possible JavaScript application? That was
    my reason for being here.


    Comment

    • Randy Webb

      #32
      Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows

      Peter Olcott said the following on 8/16/2006 4:19 PM:
      "Matt Kruse" <newsgroups@mat tkruse.comwrote in message
      news:ebvl2901jo 3@news2.newsguy .com...
      >Peter Olcott wrote:
      >>How about this, under
      >>any possible assumption to what extent is it possible to make a
      >>universal scripting language that can control every program that will
      >>run under modern operating system versions?
      >Completely and totally impossible. IMO.
      >>
      >You would either need the API to every application available (impossible) or
      >you would need to write software that could act as a user and intelligently
      >locate controls and content within any application. This would require that
      >your application be able to visually recognize a GUI like a human does, since
      >not all GUI's will look the same or even use standard OS components. Further,
      >even if an app uses standard OS components, those can be styled differently
      >depending on users's skins or OS settings.
      >>
      >
      Yet if a scripting language could see anything one the screen by matching the
      pixel patterns, then the script programmer could easily adjust for all of these
      different looks on a per script basis.
      Matching pixel patterns won't work. You can't tell the difference
      between a screen shot of an input button and an input button based on
      pixel patterns.

      --
      Randy
      comp.lang.javas cript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq & newsgroup weekly
      Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/

      Comment

      • Stephen Kellett

        #33
        Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows

        In message <ebtbq00r5g@new s2.newsguy.com> , Matt Kruse
        <newsgroups@mat tkruse.comwrite s
        >Peter Olcott wrote:
        >My goal is to find out the difficulties in deriving a truly universal
        >scripting language. In other words a scripting language capable of
        >controlling literally any program of any kind what-so-ever that will
        >run on modern operating systems such as MS Windows.
        You said earlier on you have patented this idea. What is the patent
        number. Then perhaps we can work out what you want to do from examining
        the patent?

        Since you have it patented, it is in your interests to disclose the
        patent number and any relevant information.

        Stephen
        --
        Stephen Kellett
        Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
        Computer Consultancy, Software Development
        Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting

        Comment

        • Stephen Kellett

          #34
          Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows

          In message <hwmEg.317$Tl4. 78@dukeread06>, Peter Olcott <olcott@att.net >
          writes
          >http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...=HITOFF&d=PALL
          >&p=1&u=%2Fneta html%2FPTO%2Fsr chnum.htm&r=1&f =G&l=50&s1=7046 848.PN.&OS=PN
          >/7046848&RS=PN/7046848
          >
          >This technology enables a truly universal GUI scripting language to be
          >created.
          But because you have patented it, no one will use it. Take a good hard
          look at all the languages in use today. They were created and provided
          to use, no charge. Some implementations of some languages charge, but
          the implementation creators are not charged by the creators of the
          language.

          Consider the Fractal Image Format - a lossy, highly compressed image
          format created in the early 1990s. Royalties required for use. Where is
          it now? Consigned to the "won't pay for that" dustbin because suitable
          other alternatives existed for free (JPEG, PNG...).

          If you think people are going to pay you to implement your universal
          scripting language I am afraid you are in for a serious reality check.

          Patent something that people need. Like a cheap, pollution free means of
          energy creation.

          Stephen
          --
          Stephen Kellett
          Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
          Computer Consultancy, Software Development
          Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting

          Comment

          • Stephen Kellett

            #35
            Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows

            In message <x5LEg.849$Tl4. 770@dukeread06> , Peter Olcott <olcott@att.net >
            writes
            >Yet if a scripting language could see anything one the screen by matching the
            >pixel patterns, then the script programmer could easily adjust for all
            >of these
            >different looks on a per script basis. As for the different user
            >settings of the
            >GUI, the script host could adjust for these, and the script programmer would
            >simply refer to them by their conventional names, menu text, icon text, et
            >cetera.
            Peter,

            Screen Readers and other assistive technology for vision impaired and
            blind computer users have been doing this for years. Also, many
            automated user-interaction test software suites (such as WinRunner), on
            various computer operating systems have also been trying to do this
            resolution-independent method.

            None of them, I repeat, none of them have succeeded. They've been at it
            longer than you and I guess know more about the problems associated with
            these particular topics than you do. They all have solutions that work
            some of the time, or most of the time, at a level acceptable by their
            customer base. None of them are 100% accurate AND are resolution and GUI
            independent.

            You are wasting your time with this patent.

            Stephen
            --
            Stephen Kellett
            Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
            Computer Consultancy, Software Development
            Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting

            Comment

            • Stephen Kellett

              #36
              Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows

              In message <4kamu8Fbaul6U1 @individual.net >, Gernot Frisch
              <Me@Privacy.net writes
              >It depends on the browser and version you use. Some place a real Win32
              >window with button class on the page, others just place an image that
              >"looks" like the win32 button. Others just place a grey rectable with
              >text as a button.
              Agreed. During 1996-1998 I wrote a web browser / multimedia authoring
              suite. I chose to use a Windows button. Firefox renders its own buttons
              - they are not Windows buttons. No idea what IE, Opera or Safari do.

              Stephen
              --
              Stephen Kellett
              Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
              Computer Consultancy, Software Development
              Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting

              Comment

              • Stephen Kellett

                #37
                Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows

                In message <ZMLEg.868$Tl4. 385@dukeread06> , Peter Olcott <olcott@att.net >
                writes
                >I came here for the purpose of the question turned around. Can any possible
                >program take complete control of every possible JavaScript application?
                >That was
                >my reason for being here.
                Define control. I can write you an application that can monitor a
                JavaScript application running inside Firefox or Flock on Windows, but
                not on Linux or MacOS and not in Safari, Internet Explorer, Opera, etc.

                I know I can do the above, because I was part of a team that has done
                the above. See softwareverify. com.

                Even then, Define "Control". I can pause it, force garbage collections,
                even gather various statistics and some of the time see variable values.

                Make it do something else? No.
                Find out what is on the screen? No.

                Stephen
                --
                Stephen Kellett
                Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
                Computer Consultancy, Software Development
                Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting

                Comment

                • Peter Olcott

                  #38
                  Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows


                  "Stephen Kellett" <snail@objmedia .demon.co.ukwro te in message
                  news:5cq2QYSAl4 4EFwN$@objmedia .demon.co.uk...
                  In message <ebtbq00r5g@new s2.newsguy.com> , Matt Kruse
                  <newsgroups@mat tkruse.comwrite s
                  >>Peter Olcott wrote:
                  >>My goal is to find out the difficulties in deriving a truly universal
                  >>scripting language. In other words a scripting language capable of
                  >>controlling literally any program of any kind what-so-ever that will
                  >>run on modern operating systems such as MS Windows.
                  >
                  You said earlier on you have patented this idea. What is the patent number.
                  Then perhaps we can work out what you want to do from examining the patent?
                  >
                  Here is a link to the patent itself.

                  Since you have it patented, it is in your interests to disclose the patent
                  number and any relevant information.
                  >
                  Stephen
                  --
                  Stephen Kellett
                  Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
                  Computer Consultancy, Software Development
                  Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting

                  Comment

                  • Peter Olcott

                    #39
                    Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows


                    "Randy Webb" <HikksNotAtHome @aol.comwrote in message
                    news:gbSdne6iiu mCF37ZnZ2dnUVZ_ r-dnZ2d@comcast.c om...
                    Peter Olcott said the following on 8/16/2006 4:19 PM:
                    >"Matt Kruse" <newsgroups@mat tkruse.comwrote in message
                    >news:ebvl2901j o3@news2.newsgu y.com...
                    >>Peter Olcott wrote:
                    >>>How about this, under
                    >>>any possible assumption to what extent is it possible to make a
                    >>>universal scripting language that can control every program that will
                    >>>run under modern operating system versions?
                    >>Completely and totally impossible. IMO.
                    >>>
                    >>You would either need the API to every application available (impossible) or
                    >>you would need to write software that could act as a user and intelligently
                    >>locate controls and content within any application. This would require that
                    >>your application be able to visually recognize a GUI like a human does,
                    >>since not all GUI's will look the same or even use standard OS components.
                    >>Further, even if an app uses standard OS components, those can be styled
                    >>differently depending on users's skins or OS settings.
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >Yet if a scripting language could see anything one the screen by matching the
                    >pixel patterns, then the script programmer could easily adjust for all of
                    >these different looks on a per script basis.
                    >
                    Matching pixel patterns won't work. You can't tell the difference between a
                    screen shot of an input button and an input button based on pixel patterns.
                    >
                    But, when is this ever a problem is actual GUI scripting?
                    --
                    Randy
                    comp.lang.javas cript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq & newsgroup weekly
                    Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/

                    Comment

                    • Peter Olcott

                      #40
                      Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows


                      "Stephen Kellett" <snail@objmedia .demon.co.ukwro te in message
                      news:h8iwYeTis4 4EFwsj@objmedia .demon.co.uk...
                      In message <hwmEg.317$Tl4. 78@dukeread06>, Peter Olcott <olcott@att.net writes
                      >>http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...=HITOFF&d=PALL
                      >>&p=1&u=%2Fnet ahtml%2FPTO%2Fs rchnum.htm&r=1& f=G&l=50&s1=704 6848.PN.&OS=PN
                      >>/7046848&RS=PN/7046848
                      >>
                      >>This technology enables a truly universal GUI scripting language to be
                      >>created.
                      >
                      But because you have patented it, no one will use it. Take a good hard look at
                      all the languages in use today. They were created and provided to use, no
                      charge. Some implementations of some languages charge, but the implementation
                      creators are not charged by the creators of the language.
                      >
                      Consider the Fractal Image Format - a lossy, highly compressed image format
                      created in the early 1990s. Royalties required for use. Where is it now?
                      Consigned to the "won't pay for that" dustbin because suitable other
                      alternatives existed for free (JPEG, PNG...).
                      >
                      If you think people are going to pay you to implement your universal scripting
                      language I am afraid you are in for a serious reality check.
                      >
                      (1) There are three different products that can be implemented with this
                      technology.
                      A universal scripting language and a generic software component are two.
                      (2) I am going for market penetration pricing so the price of the software will
                      be really affordable.
                      (3) I am implementing the original Borland marketing model, top quality, and
                      very low prices.
                      Patent something that people need. Like a cheap, pollution free means of
                      energy creation.
                      >
                      Stephen
                      --
                      Stephen Kellett
                      Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
                      Computer Consultancy, Software Development
                      Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting

                      Comment

                      • Peter Olcott

                        #41
                        Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows


                        "Stephen Kellett" <snail@objmedia .demon.co.ukwro te in message
                        news:DNFokjU9x4 4EFwKI@objmedia .demon.co.uk...
                        In message <x5LEg.849$Tl4. 770@dukeread06> , Peter Olcott <olcott@att.net >
                        writes
                        >>Yet if a scripting language could see anything one the screen by matching the
                        >>pixel patterns, then the script programmer could easily adjust for all of
                        >>these
                        >>different looks on a per script basis. As for the different user settings of
                        >>the
                        >>GUI, the script host could adjust for these, and the script programmer would
                        >>simply refer to them by their conventional names, menu text, icon text, et
                        >>cetera.
                        >
                        Peter,
                        >
                        Screen Readers and other assistive technology for vision impaired and blind
                        computer users have been doing this for years. Also, many automated
                        user-interaction test software suites (such as WinRunner), on various computer
                        operating systems have also been trying to do this resolution-independent
                        method.
                        >
                        None of them, I repeat, none of them have succeeded. They've been at it longer
                        than you and I guess know more about the problems associated with these
                        particular topics than you do. They all have solutions that work some of the
                        time, or most of the time, at a level acceptable by their customer base. None
                        of them are 100% accurate AND are resolution and GUI independent.
                        My technology is operational and has 100% accuracy at real-time speeds.
                        >
                        You are wasting your time with this patent.
                        >
                        Stephen
                        --
                        Stephen Kellett
                        Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
                        Computer Consultancy, Software Development
                        Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting

                        Comment

                        • Peter Olcott

                          #42
                          Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows


                          "Stephen Kellett" <snail@objmedia .demon.co.ukwro te in message
                          news:6PTGEKYlC5 4EFw9V@objmedia .demon.co.uk...
                          In message <ZMLEg.868$Tl4. 385@dukeread06> , Peter Olcott <olcott@att.net >
                          writes
                          >>I came here for the purpose of the question turned around. Can any possible
                          >>program take complete control of every possible JavaScript application? That
                          >>was
                          >>my reason for being here.
                          >
                          Define control.
                          Control is meant to mean the ability to simulate the effects of a human user.
                          I can write you an application that can monitor a JavaScript application
                          running inside Firefox or Flock on Windows, but not on Linux or MacOS and not
                          in Safari, Internet Explorer, Opera, etc.
                          >
                          I know I can do the above, because I was part of a team that has done the
                          above. See softwareverify. com.
                          >
                          Even then, Define "Control". I can pause it, force garbage collections, even
                          gather various statistics and some of the time see variable values.
                          >
                          Make it do something else? No.
                          Find out what is on the screen? No.
                          >
                          Stephen
                          --
                          Stephen Kellett
                          Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
                          Computer Consultancy, Software Development
                          Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting

                          Comment

                          • Stephen Kellett

                            #43
                            Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows

                            In message <l_MEg.896$Tl4. 91@dukeread06>, Peter Olcott <olcott@att.net >
                            writes
                            >(1) There are three different products that can be implemented with this
                            >technology.
                            >A universal scripting language and a generic software component are two.
                            >(2) I am going for market penetration pricing so the price of the
                            >software will
                            >be really affordable.
                            >(3) I am implementing the original Borland marketing model, top quality, and
                            >very low prices.
                            Sounds just like the fractal image format. That was a good product, with
                            good results (the images looked OK, scaled well and compressed
                            exceedingly well). The royalty was low. Eventually the royalty was done
                            away with, with a fee for the software development kit instead (or
                            something like that). Fractal Image Format (*.fif) is an image format
                            that most people don't even know existed.

                            For universal scripting language I can think of 3 existing languages
                            that run standalone or embedded in another product. All three are
                            dynamic languages, very easy to use and very similar (although their
                            various proponents swear blind their language is best).

                            They are Python, Ruby and Lua. All three have the ultimate penetration
                            pricing fee - zero cost to get the source code, a prebuilt runtime and
                            all 3 have reasonably large, passionate, helpful user communities.

                            Generic software component? What is that? Its a pretty meaningless
                            phrase that means its a generic software component. See recursion.

                            Stephen
                            --
                            Stephen Kellett
                            Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
                            Computer Consultancy, Software Development
                            Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting

                            Comment

                            • Stephen Kellett

                              #44
                              Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows

                              In message <P0NEg.897$Tl4. 797@dukeread06> , Peter Olcott <olcott@att.net >
                              writes
                              >My technology is operational and has 100% accuracy at real-time speeds.
                              And is it resolution independent? I doubt you very much. If you were
                              serious you wouldn't be asking these questions about JavaScript as you'd
                              know already if you could identify the buttons/whatever on screen.

                              Stephen
                              --
                              Stephen Kellett
                              Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
                              Computer Consultancy, Software Development
                              Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting

                              Comment

                              • Stephen Kellett

                                #45
                                Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows

                                In message <n5NEg.898$Tl4. 67@dukeread06>, Peter Olcott <olcott@att.net >
                                writes
                                >Define control.
                                >
                                >Control is meant to mean the ability to simulate the effects of a human user.
                                In which case the answer is No.

                                Stephen
                                --
                                Stephen Kellett
                                Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
                                Computer Consultancy, Software Development
                                Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting

                                Comment

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