Javascript and Microsoft Windows

[Peter Olcott]

Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows


"Richard Cornford" <Richard@litote s.demon.co.ukwr ote in message
news:1155662478 .340750.19740@7 4g2000cwt.googl egroups.com...

Peter Olcott wrote:

>Richard Cornford wrote:

>>Peter Olcott wrote:

<snip>

>>>What I really need to know is exactly how difficult it is for another
>>>program
>>>
>>What is 'another program'?

>>
>If we assume that there is a JavaScript program running in the web-browser,

>
OK.
>

>the other program is any program besides this program.

>
Narrow it down, why don't you?

My goal is to find out the difficulties in deriving a truly universal scripting
language. In other words a scripting language capable of controlling literally
any program of any kind what-so-ever that will run on modern operating systems
such as MS Windows. If I narrow down the question, then I get an answer that
does not help. My purpose of coming to this forum is to determine the
difficulties and challenges in deriving a scripting language capable of
controlling any JavaScript program, yet even this purpose is only a tiny subset
of my primary goal.

>

>In other words I need a way to determine the exact location and
>current state of any graphical user interface controls that are
>displayed in the web-browser, and this way must be able to provide
>this information to a different program beside the one running
>in the web-browser.

>
Where a browser (combined with the context ) makes the determination of
the location of elements possible the results of such calculations may
be sent to a web server (which qualifies as your 'other program') in
various ways.

Yes, how would it do this, and what do you mean by context?

>

>>>to determine the exact location
>>>
>>Javascript executing in browser environments can determine the exact
>>pixel position (screen/ within the window and on the HTML page) of
>>elements being displayed in an HTML document that it is scripting
>>whenever the browser eposes sufficient information for that
>>determinati on to be possible (which is often, but not universally, the
>>case).
>>>
>>>and current state of any graphical user interface controls.
>>>
>>What do you consider the 'state' of a graphical user Interface
>>control?

>>
>Is the checkbox currently checked or unchecked

>
The W3C HTML DOM defined - HTMLInputElemen t - interface has a boolean -
checked - proprety, that represents a formalization of a traditional
feature of representations of input elements exposed to scripting.

I don't know what W3C stands for, I assum that DOM stands for document object
model.

>

>("Current state" is a generic
>term of the art of computer science).

>
And yet when asked for clarification you are only actually interested
in one aspect of the element's state.

The most salient aspect of a graphical user control element's current state
would be its GUI control state. Its color could be construed as a part of the
state of the element, yet generally an inessential part of this state. Whether
or not a checkbox is checked, whether or not an edit box has text, and the value
of this text if present, all those things that directly pertain to this items
role as a GUI control element, also needed are its exact location, and the exact
location of its constituent parts, if any.

>

>>Brower hosts expose properties of controls/elements to scripting and
>>the values of those properties are normal candidates to be considered
>>the 'state' of the control/element.

>>
>Great exactly how do they expose this, an API call?

>
As properties of the exposed representations of the elements.

What is the API call to get to these? (or where could I find out the name of
this API call?)

>

>
>Someone told me that this is pretty easy using Ajax.
>
AJAX is completely irrelevant to the issue.

>>
>The way that it was explained is that Ajax is a hodge podge conglomeration
>of JavaScript, XML and some other things, and that these exposed
>properties are exposed in an XML format.

>
Yes, you can stop taking web development advice from whoever it was who
said that.
>
Richard.
>

[Matt Kruse]

Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows

Peter Olcott wrote:

My goal is to find out the difficulties in deriving a truly universal
scripting language. In other words a scripting language capable of
controlling literally any program of any kind what-so-ever that will
run on modern operating systems such as MS Windows.

I suspect that your goal is completely unrealistic, and has nothing to do
with Javascript. You might get clarity by first really understanding what
you want to accomplish and expressing that in a well-worded summary. The
exercise of doing so might make you realize why your questions appear to be
completely irrelevant.

--
Matt Kruse

http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com

http://www.AjaxToolbox.com

[Peter Olcott]

Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows


"Matt Kruse" <newsgroups@mat tkruse.comwrote in message
news:ebtbq00r5g @news2.newsguy. com...

Peter Olcott wrote:

>My goal is to find out the difficulties in deriving a truly universal
>scripting language. In other words a scripting language capable of
>controlling literally any program of any kind what-so-ever that will
>run on modern operating systems such as MS Windows.

>
I suspect that your goal is completely unrealistic, and has nothing to do with
Javascript. You might get clarity by first really understanding what you want
to accomplish and expressing that in a well-worded summary. The exercise of
doing so might make you realize why your questions appear to be completely
irrelevant.

I have already accomplished this goal with my patented technology:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7046848.PN.&OS=PN/7046848&RS=PN/7046848

My purpose here is to see how difficult it would be for others to achieve this
same functional benefit.

>
--
Matt Kruse

http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com

http://www.AjaxToolbox.com

>
>

[Lasse Reichstein Nielsen]

Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows

"Peter Olcott" <olcott@att.net writes:

My goal is to find out the difficulties in deriving a truly
universal scripting language. In other words a scripting language
capable of controlling literally any program of any kind
what-so-ever that will run on modern operating systems such as MS
Windows.

It seems you are concentrating on the ability to recognize and
manipulate graphical user interfaces. If you have that ability in a
library, the language, scripting or not, around it isn't as important.

If I narrow down the question, then I get an answer that does not
help. My purpose of coming to this forum is to determine the
difficulties and challenges in deriving a scripting language capable
of controlling any JavaScript program, yet even this purpose is only
a tiny subset of my primary goal.

The problem with the question is that there really aren't any
"JavaScript programs". JavaScript is itself a scripting language with
no graphical interface or even I/O features. It only really comes to
life when it's combined with a running environment that provides these
features, be it a page in a web browser, a server-side page on a web
server or running inside the windows scripting host.

So you can't say anything consistent about "JavaScript programs".

I don't know what W3C stands for, I assum that DOM stands for
document object model.

W3C: World Wide Web Consortium, the people who specifies, among other
things, the HTML and DOM standards.
DOM: Correct.

[DOM element properties]

What is the API call to get to these? (or where could I find out the name of
this API call?)

<URL:http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/>

/L
--
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen - lrn@hotpop.com
DHTML Death Colors: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rasterTriangleD OM.html>
'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'

[Peter Olcott]

Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows


"Lasse Reichstein Nielsen" <lrn@hotpop.com wrote in message
news:64gty2b9.f sf@hotpop.com.. .

"Peter Olcott" <olcott@att.net writes:
>

>My goal is to find out the difficulties in deriving a truly
>universal scripting language. In other words a scripting language
>capable of controlling literally any program of any kind
>what-so-ever that will run on modern operating systems such as MS
>Windows.

>
It seems you are concentrating on the ability to recognize and
manipulate graphical user interfaces. If you have that ability in a
library, the language, scripting or not, around it isn't as important.
>

According to members of the Java newsgroup Java Swing's light weight controls
are one example on GUI controls that are fundamentally different than native
controls. I want to see how many examples of this sort of thing I can find
across everything that runs on the Win32 platform. This is the sort of thing
that makes deriving the sort of library that you suggested difficult.

>If I narrow down the question, then I get an answer that does not
>help. My purpose of coming to this forum is to determine the
>difficulties and challenges in deriving a scripting language capable
>of controlling any JavaScript program, yet even this purpose is only
>a tiny subset of my primary goal.

>
The problem with the question is that there really aren't any
"JavaScript programs". JavaScript is itself a scripting language with
no graphical interface or even I/O features. It only really comes to
life when it's combined with a running environment that provides these
features, be it a page in a web browser, a server-side page on a web
server or running inside the windows scripting host.
>
So you can't say anything consistent about "JavaScript programs".

>I don't know what W3C stands for, I assum that DOM stands for
>document object model.

>
W3C: World Wide Web Consortium, the people who specifies, among other
things, the HTML and DOM standards.
DOM: Correct.
>
[DOM element properties]

>What is the API call to get to these? (or where could I find out the name of
>this API call?)

<URL:http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/>
>
/L
--
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen - lrn@hotpop.com
DHTML Death Colors: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rasterTriangleD OM.html>
'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'

[Dag Sunde]

Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows

Peter Olcott wrote:

"Matt Kruse" <newsgroups@mat tkruse.comwrote in message
news:ebsmlq02as 5@news2.newsguy .com...

>Peter Olcott wrote:

>>My original question
>>can not be rephrased. What I really need to know is exactly how
>>difficult it is for another program to determine the exact location
>>and current state of any graphical user interface controls. Someone
>>told me that this is pretty easy using Ajax.

>>
>The text above makes it obvious that you completely lack a basic
>level of understanding required to even ask an intelligent question
>on the matter.

<snipped/>

I have almost no understanding of JavaScript.
>

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7046848.PN.&OS=PN/7046848&RS=PN/7046848

>
This technology enables a truly universal GUI scripting language to
be created. I am attempting to estimate how difficult it would be to
approximate the functional benefits of my technology using
alternative means.

Peter...

As far as I understand it, you have written some kind of scripting
language coupled with a "screen scraping method" that can analyze
the visible "controls" of any other application ,from MS-DOS to native
windows applications, and expose those to your scripting language.

And now you're asking if this is possible to achieve in javascript
(And Java, in another NG)...?

JavaScript is not a stand-alone programming language. It always
runs in a "Host".

When it runs in the Windows Scripting Host, it can access
and manipulate the objects and properties exposed to it by the WSH.
There is no objects exposed by the WSH that enables javascript
to analyze the visual state other applications external to the WSH.

When running in a webbrowser, it can access the objects and properties
exposed to it by the webbrowser.
There is a *huge* object model exposed to JS by the webbrowser that
let JS analyze an manipulate the visual state of the document loaded in
the webbrowser hosting it. But not any applications external to the
browser.

So rest assured! JS will/can *never* be used to develop something
that can compete with what your patent claims to do.

--
Dag.

[Richard Cornford]

Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows

Dag Sunde wrote:
<snip>

When it runs in the Windows Scripting Host, it can access
and manipulate the objects and properties exposed to it by
the WSH. There is no objects exposed by the WSH that
enables javascript to analyze the visual state other
applications external to the WSH.

WSH allows Windows programs to be executed by scripts, so RUNDLL.exe,
and so any method from any DLL (at least in theory), with the
(significant) practical limitation that JScript does not have the data
types to provide appropriate arguments to many DLL calls. As a result
there is a chance that WSH does expose enough to allow JScirpt tot
analyze the visual state of other applications (particularly if
provided with a suitable custom DLL).

Richard.

[The Magpie]

Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows

Peter Olcott wrote:

>
The United States represents about half of the world software market,
so that patent has good coverage, in half the world.
>

Interestingly, I cannot find a survey of global software market value.
However, a number of websites do record global software sales numbers
but not value. From that, it appears that Europe is approximately 25% of
the software sales, China and the Far East about 45%, Japan around 12%
and the USA around 18%. These do fit in well with population
demographics so I tend to think they may be accurate, although one of
the websites did point out that it is thought up to 80% of the China and
Far East software may be pirated.

>
The rest of the world must still legally respect the copyright.
>

All signatories of the Berne Convention must respect a Berne Convention
copyright, of course, but that is nothing whatever to do with a patent.
As I did point out, a patent is to protect the *invention* but a
copyright is to protect the *expression* (or implementation) of a novel
idea in a specific form.

>
My original question can not be rephrased. What I really need to know is
exactly how difficult it is for another program to determine the
exact location and current state of any graphical user interface
controls. Someone told me that this is pretty easy using Ajax.
>

What you are asking makes several assumptions about the computer system
on which the software is running. Without knowing those assumptions, it
is impossible to answer.

If you do not make *any* assumptions then the answer is simple - you
can't do it (for instance, my own BBC Micro / adapted PDP-8 system -
self-built, self-designed and self-installed with my own software will
simply not report to other programmes).

[Peter Olcott]

Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows


"The Magpie" <usenet@mpresto n.demon.co.ukwr ote in message
news:ebv1ct$rc7 $1$8300dec7@new s.demon.co.uk.. .

Peter Olcott wrote:

>>
>The United States represents about half of the world software market,
>so that patent has good coverage, in half the world.
>>

Interestingly, I cannot find a survey of global software market value.
However, a number of websites do record global software sales numbers
but not value. From that, it appears that Europe is approximately 25% of
the software sales, China and the Far East about 45%, Japan around 12%
and the USA around 18%. These do fit in well with population
demographics so I tend to think they may be accurate, although one of
the websites did point out that it is thought up to 80% of the China and
Far East software may be pirated.

I derived my estimates from worldwide computer sales figures. The United States
have a much higher per capita computer usage than any other nation.

>>
>The rest of the world must still legally respect the copyright.
>>

All signatories of the Berne Convention must respect a Berne Convention
copyright, of course, but that is nothing whatever to do with a patent.
As I did point out, a patent is to protect the *invention* but a
copyright is to protect the *expression* (or implementation) of a novel
idea in a specific form.

It looks like the best way to protect my rights world wide is penetration
pricing, pricing too low for competition to take hold.

>>
>My original question can not be rephrased. What I really need to know is
>exactly how difficult it is for another program to determine the
>exact location and current state of any graphical user interface
>controls. Someone told me that this is pretty easy using Ajax.
>>

What you are asking makes several assumptions about the computer system
on which the software is running. Without knowing those assumptions, it
is impossible to answer.

When anyone asks the question "Is X possible?" this logically entails the
universal set of every possible assumption. How about this, under any possible
assumption to what extent is it possible to make a universal scripting language
that can control every program that will run under modern operating system
versions?

>
If you do not make *any* assumptions then the answer is simple - you
can't do it (for instance, my own BBC Micro / adapted PDP-8 system -
self-built, self-designed and self-installed with my own software will
simply not report to other programmes).

[Martin Honnen]

Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows



Dag Sunde wrote:

JavaScript is not a stand-alone programming language. It always
runs in a "Host".
>
When it runs in the Windows Scripting Host, it can access
and manipulate the objects and properties exposed to it by the WSH.
There is no objects exposed by the WSH that enables javascript
to analyze the visual state other applications external to the WSH.

Many Windows applications like Internet Explorer or Word or Excel can be
automated by script run with WSH. The Windows Shell itself can be
automated e.g. the following script grabs all open Internet Explorer
browser windows and outputs details about the document title and the
number of forms (document.forms .length):

var shell = new ActiveXObject(' Shell.Applicati on');
var windows = shell.Windows() ;
for (var i = 0, l = windows.Count; i < l; i++) {
try {
var document = windows(i).docu ment;
WScript.Echo("d ocument.title: \"" + document.title +
"\"; forms.length: " + document.forms. length);
}
catch (e) {}
}

Thus J(ava)Script (or VBScript) used with WSH can get details about the
visual state of Windows application that expose automation interfaces.

--

Martin Honnen

http://JavaScript.FAQTs.com/

[Matt Kruse]

Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows

Peter Olcott wrote:

How about this, under
any possible assumption to what extent is it possible to make a
universal scripting language that can control every program that will
run under modern operating system versions?

Completely and totally impossible. IMO.

You would either need the API to every application available (impossible) or
you would need to write software that could act as a user and intelligently
locate controls and content within any application. This would require that
your application be able to visually recognize a GUI like a human does,
since not all GUI's will look the same or even use standard OS components.
Further, even if an app uses standard OS components, those can be styled
differently depending on users's skins or OS settings.

Your patent application is long, and I didn't read a single sentence of it.
But if what you describe above is your goal, then
a) It is not achievable (IMO)
b) It certainly has nothing to do with javascript

You may wish to pursue this in some microsoft newsgroups or general
application development groups.

--
Matt Kruse

http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com

http://www.AjaxToolbox.com

[Peter Olcott]

Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows


"Martin Honnen" <mahotrash@yaho o.dewrote in message
news:44e34601$0 $10142$9b4e6d93 @newsspool2.arc or-online.net...

>
>
Dag Sunde wrote:
>
>

>JavaScript is not a stand-alone programming language. It always
>runs in a "Host".
>>
>When it runs in the Windows Scripting Host, it can access
>and manipulate the objects and properties exposed to it by the WSH.
>There is no objects exposed by the WSH that enables javascript
>to analyze the visual state other applications external to the WSH.

>
Many Windows applications like Internet Explorer or Word or Excel can be
automated by script run with WSH. The Windows Shell itself can be automated
e.g. the following script grabs all open Internet Explorer browser windows and
outputs details about the document title and the number of forms
(document.forms .length):
>
var shell = new ActiveXObject(' Shell.Applicati on');
var windows = shell.Windows() ;
for (var i = 0, l = windows.Count; i < l; i++) {
try {
var document = windows(i).docu ment;
WScript.Echo("d ocument.title: \"" + document.title +
"\"; forms.length: " + document.forms. length);
}
catch (e) {}
}
>
Thus J(ava)Script (or VBScript) used with WSH can get details about the visual
state of Windows application that expose automation interfaces.

The last four words forming the most significant limitations.

>
--
>
Martin Honnen
http://JavaScript.FAQTs.com/

[Tom Cole]

Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows

Ask Peter Olcott, he'll give you an entirely different answer, as he
claims he's made one.

Matt Kruse wrote:

Peter Olcott wrote:

How about this, under
any possible assumption to what extent is it possible to make a
universal scripting language that can control every program that will
run under modern operating system versions?

>
Completely and totally impossible. IMO.
>
You would either need the API to every application available (impossible) or
you would need to write software that could act as a user and intelligently
locate controls and content within any application. This would require that
your application be able to visually recognize a GUI like a human does,
since not all GUI's will look the same or even use standard OS components.
Further, even if an app uses standard OS components, those can be styled
differently depending on users's skins or OS settings.
>
Your patent application is long, and I didn't read a single sentence of it.
But if what you describe above is your goal, then
a) It is not achievable (IMO)
b) It certainly has nothing to do with javascript
>
You may wish to pursue this in some microsoft newsgroups or general
application development groups.
>
--
Matt Kruse

http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com

http://www.AjaxToolbox.com

[Peter Olcott]

Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows


"Matt Kruse" <newsgroups@mat tkruse.comwrote in message
news:ebvl2901jo 3@news2.newsguy .com...

Peter Olcott wrote:

>How about this, under
>any possible assumption to what extent is it possible to make a
>universal scripting language that can control every program that will
>run under modern operating system versions?

>
Completely and totally impossible. IMO.
>
You would either need the API to every application available (impossible) or
you would need to write software that could act as a user and intelligently
locate controls and content within any application. This would require that
your application be able to visually recognize a GUI like a human does, since
not all GUI's will look the same or even use standard OS components. Further,
even if an app uses standard OS components, those can be styled differently
depending on users's skins or OS settings.
>

Yet if a scripting language could see anything one the screen by matching the
pixel patterns, then the script programmer could easily adjust for all of these
different looks on a per script basis. As for the different user settings of the
GUI, the script host could adjust for these, and the script programmer would
simply refer to them by their conventional names, menu text, icon text, et
cetera.

Your patent application is long, and I didn't read a single sentence of it.
But if what you describe above is your goal, then
a) It is not achievable (IMO)
b) It certainly has nothing to do with javascript
>
You may wish to pursue this in some microsoft newsgroups or general
application development groups.

I am doing that concurrently.

>
--
Matt Kruse

http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com

http://www.AjaxToolbox.com

>
>

[Dag Sunde]

Re: Javascript and Microsoft Windows

Martin Honnen wrote:

Dag Sunde wrote:
>
>

>JavaScript is not a stand-alone programming language. It always
>runs in a "Host".
>>
>When it runs in the Windows Scripting Host, it can access
>and manipulate the objects and properties exposed to it by the WSH.
>There is no objects exposed by the WSH that enables javascript
>to analyze the visual state other applications external to the WSH.

>
Many Windows applications like Internet Explorer or Word or Excel can
be automated by script run with WSH. The Windows Shell itself can be
automated e.g. the following script grabs all open Internet Explorer
browser windows and outputs details about the document title and the
number of forms (document.forms .length):
>
var shell = new ActiveXObject(' Shell.Applicati on');
var windows = shell.Windows() ;
for (var i = 0, l = windows.Count; i < l; i++) {
try {
var document = windows(i).docu ment;
WScript.Echo("d ocument.title: \"" + document.title +
"\"; forms.length: " + document.forms. length);
}
catch (e) {}
}
>
Thus J(ava)Script (or VBScript) used with WSH can get details about
the visual state of Windows application that expose automation
interfaces.

You can get the information the application choose to expose thru its
automation interface, nothing more.

The point of my previous post was to illustrate that while JS can,
in some cases give you limited information about some applications
it can *not* be used to take total control over all types of apps
possibly running on a pc.

(And that's what the OP claims his system can do).

The question here is: "Can Javascript be used to analyze the current
state of every visual control the user can interact with, in every
application, regardless og automation interface, and interact with it?

The answer is no!

--
Dag.