Mars Rover Controlled By Java

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  • mitch

    #16
    Re: Mars Rover Controlled By Java

    Uncle Al wrote:[color=blue]
    >
    > Local atmospheric pressure is 7-10 torr. Earth sea level is 760
    > torr. How many planes do you know that cruise at 100,000 feet absent
    > any oxygen at all? Martian aircraft are a bad dream.[/color]

    Hmm. Then the test of a Mars glider plane back in August of 2001 was
    just a bad dream? ;-) Work has begun on a propellered version of the
    glider cited below. Enjoy.

    --mitch
    ----------------------------



    Michael Mewhinney Aug. 13, 2001
    NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
    Phone: 650-604-5026 or 604-9000
    jbluck@mail.arc .nasa.gov or mmewhinney@mail .arc.nasa.gov


    RELEASE: 01-58AR

    AMES COMPLETES SUCCESSFUL TEST OF MARS AIRPLANE PROTOTYPE

    Soaring gracefully down to Earth from a balloon floating 101,000 feet high
    above Oregon, a NASA prototype of an airplane that someday may fly over
    Mars successfully completed a high-altitude flight test this week.

    Conducted at Oregon's Tillamook airport by the Kitty Hawk 3 project at NASA
    Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA, the test was designed to validate
    the aerodynamic performance of the prototype. Nicknamed "Orville" after
    one of the famed Wright brothers who first flew on Dec. 17, 1903, the NASA
    731 glider was dropped from a helium-filled balloon that towed it up to an
    altitude of 101,000 feet - the highest ever for such a test - before
    releasing it. Engineers and scientists hailed the test as a great success.

    "It was a great flight and everything went really well. It appears that we
    realized all of our test objectives," exclaimed a jubilant Andy Gonzales,
    an Ames aerospace engineer who served as the flight test director.
    Low-altitude tests of NASA 729, another prototype called "Wilbur," were
    conducted last month at Ames.

    "Mars has always fascinated people," said Larry Lemke, an aerospace
    engineer at NASA Ames who serves as Ames' project manager for advanced Mars
    mobility concepts, which include airplanes as well as other systems.
    "Every time we send a mission up there, we come back with fascinating
    discoveries."

    According to Lemke, a Mars airplane is an idea whose time has come. "The
    Mars airplane is an idea that has been around for about 25 years, and over
    the past five years or so, it has been growing in popularity," he said. "I
    think a Mars airplane will play a role in exploring the Red Planet."

    Conventional in appearance, the Mars airplane concept developed by Ames
    engineers features a long, straight wing and twin tails in the rear. The
    remote-controlled glider tested in Oregon featured an approximately
    four-foot-long fuselage and an eight-foot wing span.

    "The flying we have successfully completed in Oregon is very similar to the
    flying that we will be doing over Mars during a productive exploration
    mission," Lemke said. "One unique aspect of flying a Mars mission with an
    airplane is that it must be constructed in a fold-up configuration in order
    to fit inside a spacecraft."

    In its future configuration for Mars, the aircraft is expected to have its
    own propeller propulsion system capable of operating in the Mars
    atmosphere, which is comprised mostly of carbon dioxide. It will also
    carry a variety of sophisticated instruments to observe and conduct science
    experiments.

    "The possibility of life on Mars is a very hot topic and an interesting
    question, so I'm sure you will find instruments on board that are designed
    to find signs of water on Mars, which is necessary for life," Lemke said.

    "In addition, we would have a large array of cameras on the airplane to be
    able to see large areas of the Mars terrain in very high resolution," Lemke
    said. He said the cameras aboard the aircraft would be so precise, they
    could see objects on Mars as small as the size of a quarter. "I think the
    images will be stunning," he said. "During a Mars airplane mission, we will
    be able to view the planet at very close proximity and this will convey to
    the public that there is a real planet there, not just an abstract."

    "Our test flight at Tillamook airport showed the airplane's flight was very
    smooth and stable which makes for a good platform for science instruments,"
    said Gonzales.

    Ames engineers predict the next few years will be challenging, as they
    prepare for a potential mission to Mars. "We will be expanding the envelope
    and developing a much more complex aircraft for exploring Mars," Lemke
    said. The next step will be to develop a Mars airplane model with folding
    wings and later, one with a propeller propulsion system.

    -- end --

    Note to Broadcasters: A video file related to this news release is
    scheduled for distribution via satellite on NASA Television on August 14,
    2001. Because feed times and the schedule are subject to change, please
    check the NASA TV video file line-up on the web at
    ftp://ftp.hq.nasa.gov/pub/pao/tv-advisory/nasa-tv.txt

    NASA TV is available on GE-2, transponder 9C at 85 degrees west longitude,
    with vertical polarization; frequency is on 3880.0 megahertz, with audio on
    6.8 megahertz. For general questions about the video file, call NASA
    Headquarters, Washington, DC: Fred Brown at 202/358-0713

    Comment

    • Uncle Al

      #17
      Re: Mars Rover Controlled By Java

      mitch wrote:[color=blue]
      >
      > Uncle Al wrote:[color=green]
      > >
      > > Local atmospheric pressure is 7-10 torr. Earth sea level is 760
      > > torr. How many planes do you know that cruise at 100,000 feet absent
      > > any oxygen at all? Martian aircraft are a bad dream.[/color]
      >
      > Hmm. Then the test of a Mars glider plane back in August of 2001 was
      > just a bad dream? ;-) Work has begun on a propellered version of the
      > glider cited below. Enjoy.[/color]
      [color=blue]
      > AMES COMPLETES SUCCESSFUL TEST OF MARS AIRPLANE PROTOTYPE[/color]

      The empirical fact is that lowland Martian air pressure is 7-10 torr.
      The is equivalent to 120,000-100,000 feet terrestrial altitude. If
      the silly thing will be diddling at even 1000 ft altitude Martian, the
      air will be thinner. I don't care if Hillary Ramrod Clinton left a
      big warm wetspot on the chute prior to deployment. Stuff doesn't fly
      that high - certainly absent oxygen in the intake.

      "Ye canna break the laws of physics."

      The Concorde flew at 60,000 feet and gulped air like a madman. The
      U-2 did 75,000 feet, breathed air, and it was a bitch to fly. The
      SR-71 Blackbird could barely do 100,000 feet while at Mach 3+ with its
      cockpit windshield simmering at 620 F. It drank 8000 gallons/hr of
      fuel. It breathed 6 million ft^3 of air/minute.
      [color=blue]
      > Soaring gracefully down to Earth from a balloon floating 101,000 feet high
      > above Oregon, a NASA prototype of an airplane that someday may fly over
      > Mars successfully completed a high-altitude flight test this week.[/color]

      Yeah, right. They have an airfoil that works in vacuum. What is its
      payload - one NASA decal? Learn the difference between Official Truth
      and real world truth.

      [snip]

      --
      Uncle Al


      (Do something naughty to physics)

      Comment

      • Rupert Pigott

        #18
        Re: Mars Rover Controlled By Java

        "Uncle Al" <UncleAl0@hate. spam.net> wrote in message
        news:4009BB55.4 CCD266E@hate.sp am.net...

        [SNIP]
        [color=blue]
        > The empirical fact is that lowland Martian air pressure is 7-10 torr.
        > The is equivalent to 120,000-100,000 feet terrestrial altitude. If
        > the silly thing will be diddling at even 1000 ft altitude Martian, the[/color]

        According to that link they've tested it at over 100,000 ft
        already. Cute idea, but I figure the air-ship type option
        may be more robust and easier to deploy - plus if something
        momentarily breaks it's less like to fall out of the sky.

        Cheers,
        Rupert


        Comment

        • Andrew Thompson

          #19
          Re: Mars Rover Controlled By Java

          "Rupert Pigott" <roo@dark-try-removing-this-boong.demon.co. uk>
          wrote in message news:1074380435 .766150@saucer. planet.gong...
          | "Uncle Al" <UncleAl0@hate. spam.net> wrote in message
          | news:4009BB55.4 CCD266E@hate.sp am.net...
          |
          | [SNIP]
          |
          | > The empirical fact is that lowland Martian air pressure is
          7-10 torr.
          | > The is equivalent to 120,000-100,000 feet terrestrial
          altitude. If
          | > the silly thing will be diddling at even 1000 ft altitude
          Martian, the
          |
          | According to that link they've tested it at over 100,000 ft
          | already. Cute idea, but I figure the air-ship type option
          | may be more robust and easier to deploy - plus if something
          | momentarily breaks it's less like to fall out of the sky.

          This topic was discussed recently on sci.space.tech.
          One of the problems identified for heavier than..
          atmosphere craft was the *runway length required
          to take-off or land.

          [ And to those that would jump in and suggest
          keeping it aloft continuously, that is impractical
          with sandstorms, ..even assuming you could squeeze
          a 'little' RTG into it, and still get it off the ground. ]

          Balloon, or better still, orbiter with a bloody
          good telescope. No dust, no sand, no runways
          to deal with and you can cover far more area.

          * Well, of _course_ they would be using all
          those really _long_ runways built on Mars
          during WWII. ;-)

          --
          Andrew Thompson
          * http://www.PhySci.org/ PhySci software suite
          * http://www.1point1C.org/ 1.1C - Superluminal!
          * http://www.AThompson.info/andrew/ personal site


          Comment

          • Michael N. Christoff

            #20
            Re: Mars Rover Controlled By Java


            "Tony Hill" <hilla_nospam_2 0@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
            news:670f421519 c840a1d534f4a79 b43fdcc@news.1u senet.com...[color=blue]
            > On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:52:45 GMT, Jan Panteltje
            > <pNaonStpealmtj e@yahoo.com> wrote:[color=green]
            > >On a sunny day (Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:53:34 +0100) it happened "Dalibor[/color][/color]
            Hrg"[color=blue][color=green]
            > ><dalibor.hrg@f er.hr> wrote in <bub0mv$c11$1@l s219.htnet.hr>:
            > >[color=darkred]
            > >>We can say that Java is most useful language on Mars today :))) You[/color][/color][/color]
            know,[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
            > >>the time of .NET is coming while Java has already took its place in
            > >>history. Nothing can change that, Java is simply great thing![/color]
            > >Java is the worst thing that could happen to computing since the
            > >invention of the chuwing gum hard disk.
            > >It is slow, slow, slow, slow, SLOW, and not to mention slow.
            > >And on top of that it is slow.[/color]
            >
            > You know, believe it or not, Java isn't all that slow. Here are a
            > couple of tests comparing different languages for very simple
            > algorithms:
            >
            > http://www.bagley.org/~doug/shootout/index2.shtml
            >
            > http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5602
            >
            > While these simple tests might not hit on some of the weaknesses of a
            > JIT language like Java, they do tend to indicate that the performance
            > for most tests isn't all that bad.
            >
            >
            > That being said, the fact remains that Java is NOT being used on Mars
            > today. The Java stuff the original article talked about was all
            > earth-based stuff. In fact, it wasn't even the thing that was getting
            > the data from the Mars rover, simply the component that let people
            > view the data after it had been received.
            >
            > The code on the rover wasn't specified, but it's most likely C/C++ as
            > that is the primary development language for Wind River VxWorks. I'm
            > not even sure if that OS has Java support, though even if it did it
            > would be a BAD choice. Java is NOT designed with real-time operating
            > systems in mind.[/color]

            That is correct. However, standard Java is also not a good choice for cell
            phones. You need Java Micro edition (J2ME) for this. On that note, there
            is much work being done on developing a version of Java for real time
            systems.



            l8r, Mike N. Christoff



            Comment

            • Jan Panteltje

              #21
              Re: Mars Rover Controlled By Java

              On a sunny day (Sat, 17 Jan 2004 21:28:13 GMT) it happened Tony Hill
              <hilla_nospam_2 0@yahoo.ca> wrote in
              <670f421519c840 a1d534f4a79b43f dcc@news.1usene t.com>:[color=blue]
              >
              >You know, believe it or not, Java isn't all that slow. Here are a
              >couple of tests comparing different languages for very simple
              >algorithms:[/color]
              OK, but my latest test on THAT java mars rover soft ran 1.3 frames / second
              on a 1 GHz PC.
              Before it crashed mind you.

              This was posted to sci.astro a week or 2 ago:[color=blue]
              >from the rovers will be provided and can be loaded into the program.
              >
              >http://mars.telascience.org/home/
              >
              >"The Jet Propulsion Laboratory has released Maestro, a public version
              >of the primary software tool used by NASA scientists to operate the
              >Mars Exploration Rovers. Anyone can download Maestro for free from
              >http://mars.telascience.org/ and use it to follow along with the
              >rovers' progress during the mission. You can use Maestro to view
              >pictures from Mars in 2D and 3D and create simplified rover activity
              >plans. During the mission, updates will be released for Maestro
              >containing the latest images from Mars."[/color]

              Me replying:
              OK I downloaded the Linux version last night (I am in Europe),
              realizing after it turned out to be a 2 1/2 hour download on a V90 modem,
              that I really must be confident that lander worked this time....

              Anyways it is based on java rle, the install script has some errors,
              so you can not run it as the indicated executable,
              but I had to run it as (I untarred it in /video/compile/maestro/ )
              /video/compile/maestro/R2004_01-Public-Linux/JPL/SAP/bin/WITS
              while 'SAP', that should start it (in /usr/local/bin), points to
              SAP -> /video/compile/maestro/R2004_01-Public-Linux/WITS

              So directory JPL/bin is missing from the softlink in /usr/local/bin
              Also the install script 'forgets' to do
              tar -xvf mer.tar
              in
              /video/compile/maestro/R2004_01-Public-Linux/JPL/SAP/WITS-db
              so that you actually see some data.
              Because of java (likely) the thing is slower then a dead snail glued with
              superglue to a scrapped Apollo.
              I followed the intro to the point where it had to move to a target, then it
              froze with this message in the console:

              An unexpected exception has been detected in native code outside the VM.
              Unexpected Signal : 11 occurred at PC=0x400C32F7
              Function=memcpy +0x27
              Library=/lib/libc.so.6

              Current Java thread:


              *************** *
              Another exception has been detected while we were handling last error.
              Dumping information about last error:
              ERROR REPORT FILE = (N/A)
              PC = 0x0x400c32f7
              SIGNAL = 11
              FUNCTION NAME = memcpy
              OFFSET = 0x27
              LIBRARY NAME = /lib/libc.so.6
              Please check ERROR REPORT FILE for further information, if there is any.
              Good bye.

              So, 1.3 frames / second before it crashed, and this system plays live video
              at normal speed no problem.
              But THAT code is written in asm and C.
              I remember the old vrml browsers (was there al the way from the beginning).
              After some of these got ported to Java it was a factor 10 slower (at least).
              And NO reason in the world to do that, portability of good C code is excellent.
              Java is a mistake.

              Comment

              • Jon Leech

                #22
                Re: Mars Rover Controlled By Java

                In article <400959F1.CA7ED B5A@hate.spam.n et>,
                Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate. spam.net> wrote:[color=blue]
                >Local atmospheric pressure is 7-10 torr. Earth sea level is 760
                >torr. How many planes do you know that cruise at 100,000 feet absent
                >any oxygen at all?[/color]

                The AeroVironment Helios Prototype, for one:


                [color=blue]
                > Martian aircraft are a bad dream.[/color]

                No more than Mars sample return or numerous other challenging but
                entirely feasible tasks.

                Jon
                __@/

                Comment

                • Alan Balmer

                  #23
                  Re: Mars Rover Controlled By Java

                  On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:52:45 GMT, Jan Panteltje
                  <pNaonStpealmtj e@yahoo.com> wrote:
                  [color=blue]
                  >On a sunny day (Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:53:34 +0100) it happened "Dalibor Hrg"
                  ><dalibor.hrg@f er.hr> wrote in <bub0mv$c11$1@l s219.htnet.hr>:
                  >[color=green]
                  >>We can say that Java is most useful language on Mars today :))) You know,
                  >>the time of .NET is coming while Java has already took its place in
                  >>history. Nothing can change that, Java is simply great thing![/color]
                  >Java is the worst thing that could happen to computing since the
                  >invention of the chuwing gum hard disk.
                  >It is slow, slow, slow, slow, SLOW, and not to mention slow.
                  >And on top of that it is slow.[/color]

                  Haven't tried it lately, have you ;-)

                  --
                  Al Balmer
                  Balmer Consulting
                  removebalmercon sultingthis@att .net

                  Comment

                  • PerfectDayToChaseTornados

                    #24
                    Re: Mars Rover Controlled By Java

                    |
                    | >On a sunny day (Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:53:34 +0100) it happened "Dalibor
                    Hrg"
                    | ><dalibor.hrg@f er.hr> wrote in <bub0mv$c11$1@l s219.htnet.hr>:
                    | >
                    | >>You know,
                    | >>the time of .NET is coming

                    Bwa Ha HA Ha Ha Ha Ha HA.
                    Thanks for making me laugh at the end of a bad day :-)
                    --
                    -P


                    Comment

                    • Stefan Monnier

                      #25
                      Re: Mars Rover Controlled By Java

                      > Java is the worst thing that could happen to computing since the[color=blue]
                      > invention of the chuwing gum hard disk.
                      > It is slow, slow, slow, slow, SLOW, and not to mention slow.
                      > And on top of that it is slow.[/color]

                      And that's why it's such an important step forward: it makes it possible for
                      people to realize that speed is not all that important when choosing
                      a programming language.

                      Now that we've taken this step, we can start to think about the next step:
                      focus on safety and correctness.


                      Stefan

                      Comment

                      • Ashlie Benjamin Hocking

                        #26
                        Re: Mars Rover Controlled By Java

                        Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.um ontreal.ca> writes:[color=blue][color=green]
                        > > Java is the worst thing that could happen to computing since the
                        > > invention of the chuwing gum hard disk.
                        > > It is slow, slow, slow, slow, SLOW, and not to mention slow.
                        > > And on top of that it is slow.[/color]
                        >
                        > And that's why it's such an important step forward: it makes it possible for
                        > people to realize that speed is not all that important when choosing
                        > a programming language.
                        >
                        > Now that we've taken this step, we can start to think about the next step:
                        > focus on safety and correctness.[/color]

                        Actually, speed is very often an important aspect. The question is,
                        speed of what? If you spent five days writing/debugging a program in
                        C++ that could be written in two hours in LISP (for example), and the
                        program is only going to be used for a single experiment or set of
                        experiments, than most likely the improvement in performance that you
                        got by writing it in C++ is offset by the time spent writing/debugging
                        it. Obviously, as been said several times, it depends on what the
                        language is being used for. If the software is for security-critical
                        uses, C++ is probably a bad choice. If the software is for cracking a
                        particular encryption algorithm, C might be a very good choice. (Of
                        course, assembly might be even better!)

                        ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                        | "Good and evil both increase at compound
                        Ben Hocking, Grad Student | interest. That is why the little
                        hocking@cs.virg inia.edu | decisions you and I make every day are of
                        | such infinite importance." - C. S. Lewis
                        ---------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Comment

                        • Jan Panteltje

                          #27
                          Re: Mars Rover Controlled By Java

                          On a sunny day (Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:49:32 -0700) it happened Alan Balmer
                          <albalmer@att.n et> wrote in <b0uq00li1u7egc lebou5m86gd4fjm a9644@4ax.com>:
                          [color=blue]
                          >On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:52:45 GMT, Jan Panteltje
                          ><pNaonStpealmt je@yahoo.com> wrote:
                          >[color=green]
                          >>On a sunny day (Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:53:34 +0100) it happened "Dalibor Hrg"
                          >><dalibor.hrg@ fer.hr> wrote in <bub0mv$c11$1@l s219.htnet.hr>:
                          >>[color=darkred]
                          >>>We can say that Java is most useful language on Mars today :))) You know,
                          >>>the time of .NET is coming while Java has already took its place in
                          >>>history. Nothing can change that, Java is simply great thing![/color]
                          >>Java is the worst thing that could happen to computing since the
                          >>invention of the chuwing gum hard disk.
                          >>It is slow, slow, slow, slow, SLOW, and not to mention slow.
                          >>And on top of that it is slow.[/color]
                          >
                          >Haven't tried it lately, have you ;-)[/color]
                          Oh yes I did, but nervous Jave people start spamming my email
                          that I really *should not mention Java is slow*, well, read my other post
                          in this tread.
                          And THAT was written by NASA.
                          Penty of stuff around to show it, get real.
                          [color=blue]
                          >
                          >--
                          >Al Balmer
                          >Balmer Consulting[/color]
                          mmm
                          Solutions of Yesterday already NOW on your desktop with JAVA (snailmark).
                          Sorry

                          Comment

                          • Jan Panteltje

                            #28
                            Re: Mars Rover Controlled By Java

                            On a sunny day (Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:07:16 GMT) it happened Stefan Monnier
                            <monnier@iro.um ontreal.ca> wrote in
                            <jwvk73mfnn5.fs f-monnier+comp.ar ch@asado.iro.um ontreal.ca>:
                            [color=blue][color=green]
                            >> Java is the worst thing that could happen to computing since the
                            >> invention of the chuwing gum hard disk.
                            >> It is slow, slow, slow, slow, SLOW, and not to mention slow.
                            >> And on top of that it is slow.[/color]
                            >
                            >And that's why it's such an important step forward: it makes it possible for
                            >people to realize that speed is not all that important when choosing
                            >a programming language.
                            >
                            >Now that we've taken this step, we can start to think about the next step:
                            >focus on safety and correctness.
                            >
                            >
                            > Stefan[/color]
                            How safe is a car that cannot accelerate (when needed).
                            How correct is a solution that runs 10x slower then other ones.
                            (like web browser).
                            What does it give us, so you cannot program with pointers, so
                            you do not want to learn that, so you use java.
                            Popups, webcrap...
                            Or use 10 x power for the same final speed, efficient?
                            Java is as safe as the one who programs with it.
                            If you forget (because you think it is so safe) about any security issues,
                            then your eventual lack of knowledge about these issues will break
                            your code security.
                            I cannot really think of one useful application of Java except
                            burning it.
                            It is like BASIC, except slower, and less used.
                            Hey I am not just pestering, it is TRUE.
                            NOTHING is slower then java.

                            Comment

                            • Stefan Monnier

                              #29
                              Re: Mars Rover Controlled By Java

                              > How safe is a car that cannot accelerate (when needed).[color=blue]
                              > How correct is a solution that runs 10x slower then other ones.
                              > (like web browser).
                              > What does it give us, so you cannot program with pointers, so
                              > you do not want to learn that, so you use java.
                              > Popups, webcrap...
                              > Or use 10 x power for the same final speed, efficient?[/color]

                              Why don't you go and learn about programming languages (and their history)?


                              Stefan

                              Comment

                              • seemanta dutta

                                #30
                                Re: Mars Rover Controlled By Java

                                <snip>
                                [color=blue]
                                > Why mention oxygen specifically?
                                > The solar panels mentioned would have no
                                > problem with the complete absence of oxygen.
                                >[/color]

                                My dear friend, planes need atmosphere not only for combustion but
                                also for generating the required lift by its wings or copter blades or
                                whatever. A rarefied atmosphere would not be able to generate enough
                                lift at a decent velocity like on earth. of course by increasing the
                                velocity several times we can generate some lift, but that would be a
                                totally wasteful use of energy.

                                Besides to keep a copter in the air it woulf consume a great deal of
                                energy which could be otherwise utilised for some other purpose.
                                [color=blue]
                                > ..Though a battery powered chopper would
                                > still be little more effective than one that
                                > uses internal combustion.
                                >[/color]
                                again battery power does not solve the probelm of generating enough
                                lift in a rarefied atmosphere.

                                regards,
                                Seemanta Dutta

                                Comment

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