Verdana font. Why not?

**Arne** · Jul 21 '05, 01:26 AM

Re: Verdana font. Why not?

Once upon a time *Ståle Sæbøe* wrote:[color=blue]
> I am a bit curious about this.
>
> The graphic design people I work with say it is their preferred font for
> web pages. The reason being that it is "kinder" to the eye both in terms
> of shape and size.
>
> The HTML "hardcore elititst" profess that it is a useless font because
> it is too big compared to other fonts.
>
> Personally I do not care one way or the other, but I generally trust
> graphic designers more than programmers and rules lawyers when it comes
> to pure design.
>
> It seems to me that the only argument against using Verdana is that a
> large number of browsers do not support it and therefore it causes their
> pages to render with a very small font.
>
> Can anyone honestly say they do not have the Verdana font installed?[/color]

I'll guess most Windows systems have also Verdana, about other systems
(like Mac and Linux) I'm not sure. You should not use pixels (or
points) for font size, and leave to the user to see the font in
prefered (default) size. Under sutch circumstances I'll guess it's
possible to use Verdana, even if it's not a prefered font.

--
/Arne

Proud User of Mozilla Suite. Get your free copy here:
*English* http://www.mozilla.org/products/mozilla1.x/
*Svenska* http://www.mozilla.se/mozilla.shtml

**Steve Pugh** · Jul 21 '05, 01:26 AM

Re: Verdana font. Why not?

Ståle Sæbøe <othmaar@tdz.no > wrote:
[color=blue]
>I am a bit curious about this.
>
>The graphic design people I work with say it is their preferred font for
>web pages. The reason being that it is "kinder" to the eye both in terms
>of shape and size.[/color]

What size are they suggesting it be used at? If Verdana at the browser
default size is the look they are after then go for it.

If they're suggesting that it be used at a smaller font size then they
are in fact agreeing with...
[color=blue]
>The HTML "hardcore elititst" profess that it is a useless font because
>it is too big compared to other fonts.[/color]

Use Verdana, set a font-size that makes Verdana look right to you. Now
delete Verdana from your system (or just comment it out in your
stylesheet). Does the text still look right with your fallback font?
[color=blue]
>Personally I do not care one way or the other, but I generally trust
>graphic designers more than programmers and rules lawyers when it comes
>to pure design.[/color]

Ah but who do you trust on matters of accessibility and usability?
[color=blue]
>It seems to me that the only argument against using Verdana is that a
>large number of browsers do not support it and therefore it causes their
>pages to render with a very small font.[/color]

Not "a large number", just "a number".
[color=blue]
>Can anyone honestly say they do not have the Verdana font installed?[/color]

According to http://www.visibone.com/font/FontResults.html 98% of
users have Verdana installed.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net > <http://steve.pugh.net/>

**Curt Balluff** · Jul 21 '05, 01:26 AM

Re: Verdana font. Why not?

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:02:34 +0100, Ståle Sæbøe <othmaar@tdz.no >
wrote:
[color=blue]
>I am a bit curious about this.
>
>The graphic design people I work with say it is their preferred font for
>web pages. The reason being that it is "kinder" to the eye both in terms
>of shape and size.
>
>The HTML "hardcore elititst" profess that it is a useless font because
>it is too big compared to other fonts.[/color]

Verdana is a screen-optimized font while Arial is a print-optimized
font. So I think Verdana is a good choice.

Verdana, Helvetica ,sans-serif; would be my chioce for font-family.

[...] support it and therefore it causes their[color=blue]
>pages to render with a very small font.
>[/color]
Use em or px
don't use pt

Curt

**Spartanicus** · Jul 21 '05, 01:26 AM

Re: Verdana font. Why not?

Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net > wrote:
[color=blue]
>Use Verdana, set a font-size that makes Verdana look right to you. Now
>delete Verdana from your system (or just comment it out in your
>stylesheet). Does the text still look right with your fallback font?[/color]

For me that test isn't convincing if the font size is set at 86%.

Some other tests:

Using a browser that has an appropriately sized serif font specified as
the default font, create a page that uses a Verdana font, size it so
that it looks nice. Now configure Verdana as you preferred font in your
browser's preferences, set the default size so that it looks right with
a webpage that does not specify a font size. Now view the page where you
use the sized Verdana font.

Take the Verdana page from the previous example and view it on a
computer with a high resolution screen like the Dell Inspiron 9300
Laptops with the WUXGA option (resolution is approx 150PPI), using the
out of the box browser serif font setting.

Both tests result in nigh unreadable text. The last test is very useful
to convince designers and clients of the error of their ways, it doesn't
take much imagination to see that type of computer in the hands of the
higher echelons of the corporate world, the type of people that can make
or break the success of a web site.

--
Spartanicus

**Ståle Sæbøe** · Jul 21 '05, 01:26 AM

Re: Verdana font. Why not?

Steve Pugh wrote:[color=blue]
> Ståle Sæbøe <othmaar@tdz.no > wrote:[color=green]
>>I am a bit curious about this.
>>The graphic design people I work with say it is their preferred font for
>>web pages. The reason being that it is "kinder" to the eye both in terms
>>of shape and size.[/color]
> What size are they suggesting it be used at? If Verdana at the browser
> default size is the look they are after then go for it.[/color]
Varies wildly in relation to the overall design.
[color=blue]
> If they're suggesting that it be used at a smaller font size then they
> are in fact agreeing with...[color=green]
>>The HTML "hardcore elititst" profess that it is a useless font because
>>it is too big compared to other fonts.[/color][/color]
Not completely, the design of the font itself is said to promote
readability. This is actually a kind of science and has to do with the
actual shaping of the letters, text flow and how the eye captures it.
The Verdana is best for the screen, Times is best on paper (or so the
"experts" say).
[color=blue][color=green]
>>Personally I do not care one way or the other, but I generally trust
>>graphic designers more than programmers and rules lawyers when it comes
>>to pure design.[/color]
> Ah but who do you trust on matters of accessibility and usability?[/color]
That is a matter of requirement specifications, but I do advocate a
general attitude towards making web pages accessible. In some cases it
comes down to compromise.
[color=blue]
> According to http://www.visibone.com/font/FontResults.html 98% of
> users have Verdana installed.[/color]
Interresting statistics, thx! :)

I am still not convinced Verdana is a bad font.

**Steve Pugh** · Jul 21 '05, 01:26 AM

Re: Verdana font. Why not?

Spartanicus <me@privacy.net > wrote:[color=blue]
>Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net > wrote:
>[color=green]
>>Use Verdana, set a font-size that makes Verdana look right to you. Now
>>delete Verdana from your system (or just comment it out in your
>>stylesheet) . Does the text still look right with your fallback font?[/color]
>
>For me that test isn't convincing if the font size is set at 86%.[/color]

86% is larger than most designers I've encountered would like with
Verdana. Typically they suggest sizes that work out as 55%-75%.

[snip good advice]

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net > <http://steve.pugh.net/>

**Steve Pugh** · Jul 21 '05, 01:26 AM

Re: Verdana font. Why not?

Curt Balluff <post@curt-balluff.de> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Use em or px
>don't use pt[/color]

px is every bit as bad as pt. Em has bugs in IE. % is the best choice.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net > <http://steve.pugh.net/>

**Ståle Sæbøe** · Jul 21 '05, 01:26 AM

Re: Verdana font. Why not?

Spartanicus wrote:[color=blue]
> For me that test isn't convincing if the font size is set at 86%.[/color]
Why not 100%?[color=blue]
> Take the Verdana page from the previous example and view it on a
> computer with a high resolution screen like the Dell Inspiron 9300
> Laptops with the WUXGA option (resolution is approx 150PPI), using the
> out of the box browser serif font setting.[/color]
I do not downsize the Verdana font for the main texts. It is perfectly
fine with 100%. I use 120 PPI myself and have no problem with 100% Verdana.

**Steve Pugh** · Jul 21 '05, 01:26 AM

Re: Verdana font. Why not?

Ståle Sæbøe <othmaar@tdz.no > wrote:
[color=blue]
>Not completely, the design of the font itself is said to promote
>readability.[/color]

Yes. Verdana was designed to be readable at small font sizes. Do you
see how this leads to a catch 22?

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net > <http://steve.pugh.net/>

**Ståle Sæbøe** · Jul 21 '05, 01:26 AM

Re: Verdana font. Why not?

Steve Pugh wrote:[color=blue]
> Ståle Sæbøe <othmaar@tdz.no > wrote:[color=green]
>>Not completely, the design of the font itself is said to promote
>>readability .[/color]
> Yes. Verdana was designed to be readable at small font sizes. Do you
> see how this leads to a catch 22?[/color]
It leads to a discussuion of wether the user or the designer should
control which font should be used. This is nowhere near a catch 22
unless the best font is the one that noone can use.

The only statistics I have seen is that 2% of users do not have it
installed. Give or take 2% it does not make a huge difference unless you
have a very specific target group, which in turn would be the exception
to the rule ...

Still not convinced :)

**Steve Pugh** · Jul 21 '05, 01:26 AM

Re: Verdana font. Why not?

Ståle Sæbøe <othmaar@tdz.no > wrote:[color=blue]
>Spartanicus wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> For me that test isn't convincing if the font size is set at 86%.[/color]
>
>Why not 100%?[/color]

Because if the text is at 100% there's no problem. The fallback font
will be displayed just fine.

The normal situation is that designers want Verdana displayed at some
smaller size (typically 9px - 12px compared with the common browser
default of 16px). In those case Verdana may be legible but the
fallback font often isn't.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Take the Verdana page from the previous example and view it on a
>> computer with a high resolution screen like the Dell Inspiron 9300
>> Laptops with the WUXGA option (resolution is approx 150PPI), using the
>> out of the box browser serif font setting.[/color]
>
>I do not downsize the Verdana font for the main texts. It is perfectly
>fine with 100%. I use 120 PPI myself and have no problem with 100% Verdana.[/color]

Of course you don't. That's not the problem. The problem is when you
specify Verdana and specify a smaller than default font size. Then you
get a problem when Verdana is removed.

But most designers think that Verdana at 100% looks too big and so
insist on a smaller size. Heck, often designers insist that Arial or
TNR at 100% is too big...

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net > <http://steve.pugh.net/>

**Martin!** · Jul 21 '05, 01:26 AM

Re: Verdana font. Why not?

Spartanicus wrote:
[color=blue]
> Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net > wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>>Use Verdana, set a font-size that makes Verdana look right to you. Now
>>delete Verdana from your system (or just comment it out in your
>>stylesheet) . Does the text still look right with your fallback font?[/color]
>
>
> For me that test isn't convincing if the font size is set at 86%.
>
> Some other tests:
>
> Using a browser that has an appropriately sized serif font specified as
> the default font, create a page that uses a Verdana font, size it so
> that it looks nice. Now configure Verdana as you preferred font in your
> browser's preferences, set the default size so that it looks right with
> a webpage that does not specify a font size. Now view the page where you
> use the sized Verdana font.
>
> Take the Verdana page from the previous example and view it on a
> computer with a high resolution screen like the Dell Inspiron 9300
> Laptops with the WUXGA option (resolution is approx 150PPI), using the
> out of the box browser serif font setting.
>
> Both tests result in nigh unreadable text. The last test is very useful
> to convince designers and clients of the error of their ways, it doesn't
> take much imagination to see that type of computer in the hands of the
> higher echelons of the corporate world, the type of people that can make
> or break the success of a web site.
>[/color]

your test sounds very interesting, unfortunatly i dont have a 150dpi
laptop at hand. maybe you could make some convincing screenshots of your
test results.

looking forward to be convninced :)

gr
martin

**Spartanicus** · Jul 21 '05, 01:26 AM

Re: Verdana font. Why not?

Ståle Sæbøe <othmaar@tdz.no > wrote:
[color=blue]
>I do not downsize the Verdana font for the main texts. It is perfectly
>fine with 100%. I use 120 PPI myself and have no problem with 100% Verdana.[/color]

Your screen resolution causes you to see things differently than most
people, approx 90PPI is a more typical resolution. If you had a 90PPI
screen you'd have a problem with Verdana @ 100%.

--
Spartanicus

**Spartanicus** · Jul 21 '05, 01:26 AM

Re: Verdana font. Why not?

"Martin!" <martin.smidt@h ome.nl.knip.kni p.knip> wrote:
[color=blue]
>your test sounds very interesting, unfortunatly i dont have a 150dpi
>laptop at hand. maybe you could make some convincing screenshots of your
>test results.[/color]

A screenshot of a 150PPI screen displayed on a 90PPI screen is identical
to a native 90PPI display :)

--
Spartanicus

Verdana font. Why not?

Verdana font. Why not?

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