Adding borders...

[Steve Pugh]

Re: Adding borders...

"Jon Glazer" <jglazer.delete .me@adconn.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Wow, no I don't develop web sites for blind visitors.[/color]
[color=blue]
>Any more questions?[/color]

Nope. I think we've learnt all we need to about you. Bye.

Steve

[Steve Pugh]

Re: Adding borders...

Alexander Mueller <postmaster@127 .0.0.1> wrote:[color=blue]
>Jan Roland Eriksson wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> Post to usenet, wait for a discussion to start which may give you
>> several possibilities on how to solve your problem.[/color]
>
>The given "advices" were not related to Jon's actual question.[/color]

Yes they bloody well were. The very first response, a mere twenty
minutes after the orginal post gave details of exactly how to solve
the OP's problem. The same solution that the OP had discovered and
implemented himself inside those twenty minutes. With the original
topic out of the way the rest of this thread is a mere diversion, an
opportunity for the OP to show his colours.

Steve

[Chris Morris]

Re: Adding borders...

> > [Someone who hates the existence of alt attributes writes something]

"Jón Fairbairn" <jon.fairbairn@ cl.cam.ac.uk> writes:[color=blue]
> Are any of your clients in the UK? Because if they are your
> are leaving them open to action under the disability
> discrimination act.[/color]

Or the US (proven by case law), Australia (proven by case law), most
of Europe, etc.

In the UK, at least, companies have been willing to take the sensible
route and settle out of court.

--
Chris

[Alexander Mueller]

Re: Adding borders...

Chris Morris wrote:[color=blue]
>
> most of Europe, etc.[/color]

Can you point these out?

Alexander

[Alexander Mueller]

Re: Adding borders...

Steve Pugh wrote:[color=blue]
>
> Yes they bloody well were. The very first response, a mere twenty
> minutes after the orginal post gave details of exactly how to solve
> the OP's problem. The same solution that the OP had discovered and
> implemented himself inside those twenty minutes. With the original
> topic out of the way the rest of this thread is a mere diversion, an
> opportunity for the OP to show his colours.[/color]

Jon asked for a missing border. This was already answered by your first
reply. He did not ask for "nice" advices whether ALT is required or not.
The following posts are just zealotting behaviour.

Alexander

[Chris Morris]

Re: Adding borders...

"Jon Glazer" <jglazer.delete .me@adconn.com> writes:[color=blue]
> Wow, no I don't develop web sites for blind visitors. None of my clients
> even consider that as an issue[/color]

Of course your clients don't consider it as an issue. While (in some
countries, at least with larger companies) public awareness of
legislation and/or actually caring has made some clients ask for
accessibile sites, the majority aren't aware of one or more of:
1) People with disabilities use the web
2) Incompetent coding can make it very difficult for people with
disabilities to use the web
3) There are enough people with disabilities to make it worthwhile

It shouldn't be the client's responsibility to have to explicitly ask
for a site that works properly, just as when I ask for a house to be
built I don't have to explicitly tell the builder "make sure the doors
can be opened and don't use asbestos".

Many years ago, the builder would have had an excuse, because people
didn't know the health risks of asbestos and had servants to open
doors for them.

Many years ago, the web developer would have had an excuse, because
people weren't really aware of the problems of badly-coded sites.
[color=blue]
> since their products are almost always visual.[/color]

Sorry, I forgot that people never buy presents for other people.
[color=blue]
> So yep your right, I guess I should spend lots of time dealing with issues
> that might effect 0.001% of potential visitors (not).[/color]

Well, US and RNIB statistics agree that 2-3% of people have some
serious visual disability (not necessarily completely blind) beyond
the extent that glasses, etc can (entirely) correct.
[color=blue]
> Gotta say that my clients are very happy, some of which make millions of
> dollars on their web sites without anyone saying "hey, one of our customers
> cannot tell what we have to offer cuz they don't want to download graphics".
> Once I get a few comments like that I may devote a bit more time
> concentrating on textual sites.[/color]

Are your clients happy with the millions of dollars they are making?

Would they feel it was a good investment of money to pay someone
competent a few thousand dollars to increase their potential customer
base by 2-3% [1].

Conversely, if you said "sorry, due to my laziness, I'm going to have
to turn your website off for one week each year", would your clients
be happy? This action would also lose them "only" 2-3% of their
potential customers.

[1] In practice, possibly somewhat more than that, since there may
well be other usability/accessibility issues that could also be fixed,
benefiting a different group of customers.

--
Chris

[Steve Pugh]

Re: Adding borders...

Alexander Mueller <postmaster@127 .0.0.1> wrote:[color=blue]
>Steve Pugh wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> Yes they bloody well were. The very first response, a mere twenty
>> minutes after the orginal post gave details of exactly how to solve
>> the OP's problem. The same solution that the OP had discovered and
>> implemented himself inside those twenty minutes. With the original
>> topic out of the way the rest of this thread is a mere diversion, an
>> opportunity for the OP to show his colours.[/color]
>
>Jon asked for a missing border. This was already answered by your first
>reply. He did not ask for "nice" advices whether ALT is required or not.
>The following posts are just zealotting behaviour.[/color]

So what? This is isn't Jon's personal help desk, the fact that Jon is
a stubborn ass who doesn't care about his site's visitors and who has
no intention of improving the appalling quality of his coding doesn't
mean that we can't discuss it.

Steve

[Alexander Mueller]

Re: Adding borders...

Steve Pugh wrote:[color=blue]
>
> So what? This is isn't Jon's personal help desk, the fact that Jon is
> a stubborn ass who doesn't care about his site's visitors and who has
> no intention of improving the appalling quality of his coding doesn't
> mean that we can't discuss it.[/color]

First of I think you should watch your language!

Secondly, this is certainly not a "personal help desk" and you are not
required to answer at all. BUT IF YOU DO, you have to adhere to the
netiquette. Adding ALT tags might be a "nice to have" (although
especially problematically and rather senseless with small images) but
are certainly not a requirement. After all, who would be in the position
to REQUEST them?

I consider all your insults towards him as much worse than him leaving
out optional tags.

Alexander

[Steve Pugh]

Re: Adding borders...

Alexander Mueller <postmaster@127 .0.0.1> wrote:[color=blue]
>Steve Pugh wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> So what? This is isn't Jon's personal help desk, the fact that Jon is
>> a stubborn ass who doesn't care about his site's visitors and who has
>> no intention of improving the appalling quality of his coding doesn't
>> mean that we can't discuss it.[/color]
>
>First of I think you should watch your language![/color]

You complain about an 'ass' but let the 'bloody' in an earlier message
slide? Okay...
[color=blue]
>Adding ALT tags might be a "nice to have" (although
>especially problematically and rather senseless with small images) but
>are certainly not a requirement.[/color]

Yes they are. Look at the HTML specification.
[color=blue]
>After all, who would be in the position to REQUEST them?[/color]

Huh?
[color=blue]
>I consider all your insults towards him as much worse than him leaving
>out optional tags.[/color]

They're not tags, they're elements and they're not optional.

Steve

[Chris Morris]

Re: Adding borders...

Alexander Mueller <postmaster@127 .0.0.1> writes:[color=blue]
> Chris Morris wrote:[color=green]
> > most of Europe, etc.[/color]
>
> Can you point these out?[/color]

Off the top of my head, no, sorry, it's not something I've
specifically needed to look at. Any country with reasonable disability
discrimination legislation is probably covered to some extent, though.

--
Chris

[Steve Pugh]

Re: Adding borders...

Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net > wrote:[color=blue]
>Alexander Mueller <postmaster@127 .0.0.1> wrote:[/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
>>I consider all your insults towards him as much worse than him leaving
>>out optional tags.[/color]
>
>They're not tags, they're elements and they're not optional.[/color]

Whoops, attributes, not elements.

Oh and I might as well post this at this juncture, 'cos someone else
will if I don't. http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/faq-not.txt (Part
5)

Steve

[Chris Morris]

Re: Adding borders...

Alexander Mueller <postmaster@127 .0.0.1> writes:[color=blue]
> Steve Pugh wrote:[color=green]
> > So what? This is isn't Jon's personal help desk, the fact that Jon is
> > a stubborn ass who doesn't care about his site's visitors and who has
> > no intention of improving the appalling quality of his coding doesn't
> > mean that we can't discuss it.[/color]
>
> Secondly, this is certainly not a "personal help desk" and you are not
> required to answer at all. BUT IF YOU DO, you have to adhere to the[/color]

As is often said, you can't force anything related to CSS.
[color=blue]
> netiquette. Adding ALT tags might be a "nice to have" (although
> especially problematically and rather senseless with small images) but[/color]

alt="" or alt=" " is appropriate for small decorative images. Or many
large decorative images, for that matter.
[color=blue]
> are certainly not a requirement. After all, who would be in the
> position to REQUEST them?[/color]

1) The W3C who invented the latest HTML version?
2) Users who need them who may be able to sue you for very large
amounts of money under the legislation of many countries.
3) People who have met or know of 2) and want to give you a chance.
4) Clients who don't want suing
5) Clients who care about quality
[color=blue]
> I consider all your insults towards him as much worse than him leaving
> out optional tags.[/color]

They are not optional, though. They are required by the HTML
specification, and needed by several web browsers and their users for
the page to function properly.

The src and alt attributes of the <img> tag are alternative
representations (one graphical, one text) of the same content.

<img src="foo.jpg"> makes as much sense as <img alt="foo"> which is
why both the src and alt attributes are required.

--
Chris

[Alexander Mueller]

Re: Adding borders...

Steve Pugh wrote:[color=blue]
>
> You complain about an 'ass' but let the 'bloody' in an earlier message
> slide? Okay...[/color]

You are british I suppose, so I am used to "bloody" but the former is a
definite insult.
[color=blue]
>
> Yes they are. Look at the HTML specification.[/color]

Do you want my honest opinion? I do not care. Can you name THE instance
who would have a legal right to prosecute Jon for not including them?
Which US law does he violate?

Alexander

[Alexander Mueller]

Re: Adding borders...

Chris Morris wrote:[color=blue]
>
> As is often said, you can't force anything related to CSS.[/color]

Sorry?
[color=blue]
>
> alt="" or alt=" " is appropriate for small decorative images. Or many
> large decorative images, for that matter.[/color]

And where is the difference to leaving them out? "" is the default value.
[color=blue]
>
> 1) The W3C who invented the latest HTML version?[/color]

I doubt that.
[color=blue]
> 2) Users who need them who may be able to sue you for very large
> amounts of money under the legislation of many countries.[/color]

First of all, this depends entirely on the jurisdiction. And secondly,
nobody is forced to visit a site. If someone does he has to obey the
"rules of the house".
[color=blue]
> 3) People who have met or know of 2) and want to give you a chance.[/color]

??
[color=blue]
> 4) Clients who don't want suing[/color]

This depends on the jurisdiction.
[color=blue]
> 5) Clients who care about quality[/color]

Then they shall complain, but then its nevertheless up to THEM!


Alexander

[Steve Pugh]

Re: Adding borders...

Alexander Mueller <postmaster@127 .0.0.1> wrote:[color=blue]
>Steve Pugh wrote:[/color]

[ALT attributes being required and all that stuff]
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Yes they are. Look at the HTML specification.[/color]
>
>Do you want my honest opinion? I do not care.[/color]

And my honest opinion is that I don't care about you not caring.
Gosh, what a cruel and hurtful world we live in!
[color=blue]
>Can you name THE instance
>who would have a legal right to prosecute Jon for not including them?
>Which US law does he violate?[/color]

I'm not a lawyer and I'm not an American so I'm not at all qualified
to answer that question. I never raised the legal issue at all, other
people did that. I really don't care about the legal specifics, I care
about building accessible web sites that can be used by everyone.

Steve