Align DIV center?

[Martin Bialasinski]

Re: Align DIV center?

"Phil Thompson" <philSPAM@doubl onegative.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> "Stephen Poley" <sbpoleySpicedH amTrap@xs4all.n l> wrote in message
> news:pbt1q0l5km kregh5gbpbrnvrk g5vgm87rj@4ax.c om...[color=green]
>> Perhaps you'd like to offer a few examples of sites where this is the
>> case?[/color]
>
> http://www.simplebits.com/
> http://www.mezzoblue.com/
> http://www.dkeithrobinson.com/asterisk/
> http://9rules.com/whitespace/
> http://www.happycog.com/
> http://www.zeldman.com/
> http://www.blogger.com/start
> http://www.stopdesign.com/[/color]

What is so cool about horizontal scrollbars?

[Alan J. Flavell]

Re: Align DIV center?

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, Martin Bialasinski wrote:
[color=blue]
> What is so cool about horizontal scrollbars?[/color]

They show the reader in no uncertain terms who's the boss.

And that's what such deezyners seem to be aiming at.

[Phil Thompson]

Re: Align DIV center?


"Brian" <usenet3@juliet remblay.com.inv alid> wrote in message
news:o_7od.9498 52$Gx4.23199@bg tnsc04-news.ops.worldn et.att.net...[color=blue]
> Phil Thompson wrote:[color=green]
>> "Lauri Raittila" wrote...
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Phil Thompson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Read other peoples opinions here:
>>>> http://www.designbyfire.com/000032.html
>>>
>>> http://www.htmlhelp.com/cgi-bin/vali...om/000032.html
>>>
>>>[/color][/color][/color]
<snip />[color=blue]
> I'd take advice from this guy for visual design/interface, but I
> wouldn't rely on him for markup advice.
>
> --
> Brian (remove "invalid" to email me)[/color]


Isn't CSS about visual design? True his markup may be wanting but someone
must have noticed I linked to a page on his site because it contained lots
of links to other webpages where others had expressed their opinions on this
subject matter, not because I thought his page or his opinion was gospel.


--
Phil Thompson

http://www.doubleonegative.com/

[Lauri Raittila]

Re: Align DIV center?

in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets, Phil Thompson wrote:[color=blue]
> Brian wrote:[color=green]
> > I'd take advice from this guy for visual design/interface,[/color][/color]

I would too, if you meaned interface for some program. But even then, I
would not take it as granted. He has done stuff for Adobe, and if their
other UIs are as bad Adobe Acrobat Reader, I wouldn't take any advice.

Only other Adobe product I have used was PhotoShop 4 (or was it 3), and
it's UI was not as bad...

And then webpages are totally different than program UIs. So hes
expertice would be more suited on designing Browser than Webpage.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > but I wouldn't rely on him for markup advice.[/color][/color]

Certainly not.
[color=blue]
> Isn't CSS about visual design?[/color]

Yes. But it is totally different that application interface design.
[color=blue]
> True his markup may be wanting but someone
> must have noticed I linked to a page on his site because it contained lots
> of links to other webpages where others had expressed their opinions on this
> subject matter, not because I thought his page or his opinion was gospel.[/color]

Of course he has links to sites that think same as he does. Everybody
has. But all those pages are just as bad. Or at least it is very likely.
If there was some better, you would propably shown us that one.

--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>

[Axel Dahmen]

Re: Align DIV center?

> > Set the width to something smaller than 100% and the margin to auto e.g.[color=blue][color=green]
> > div.someClass {
> > width: 100%;[/color]
>
> That should have been e.g.
> width: 80%;
> of course.[/color]

Thank you Martin (and Phil, of course!). I tried your solution (actually I'm
a floating design evangelist myself *g*), but it doesn't really seem to work
in IE6 (although on Firefox it does)... Is there some "bullet-proof"
solution?
And actually I'm not really satisfied with providing a fixed width. I'd
prefer to have the with of the div be the width required by the content. Is
there a solution without providing a width?

Regards,
Axel Dahmen

[Andrew Thompson]

Re: Align DIV center?

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:12:29 -0000, Phil Thompson wrote:
[color=blue]
> Thankyou Gus. Fact of the matter is my solution was a bit shit but I didn't
> think I deserved the abuse I got.[/color]

Excuse me?

"If I understand your CSS correctly, it will only work for a page
that is 500px wide. Please drag yourself into the third millenium!

Given the effort that people who contribute to this group put
into encouraging fluid layout and having everything exactly
as big as the *user* wants, it is disappointing to see people
encouraging fixed widths that would lock the size of the page."

Which part of that represents 'abuse'?
[color=blue]
> But seems how it came from such excellent designers http://www.1point1c.org/[/color]

Thanks! You might also have listed my other three sites though
(and if you follow the link to my personal site, you could add
three more).

Where's yours?

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.PhySci.org/codes/ Web & IT Help
http://www.PhySci.org/ Open-source software suite
http://www.1point1C.org/ Science & Technology
http://www.LensEscapes.com/ Images that escape the mundane

[Stephan Bird]

Re: Align DIV center?

In news:pbt1q0l5km kregh5gbpbrnvrk g5vgm87rj@4ax.c om,
Stephen Poley <sbpoleySpicedH amTrap@xs4all.n l>wrote:[color=blue]
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:02:14 -0000, "Phil Thompson"
> <philSPAM@doubl onegative.com> wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>> Oh my god, sorry. I didn't realise I'd just brought about the
>> apocalypse. Fluid is a great idea and yes it works sometimes but
>> there are times, when <big breath> shock horror, a fixed width
>> layout works best.[/color]
>
> Perhaps you'd like to offer a few examples of sites where this is the
> case?[/color]

(I originally posted this exact text in <cna6b5$rf8$1@t itan.btinternet .com>,
but had no follow-up (possibly because I changed the subject as well?))

I'm interested in this. Whilst fixed width design, I agree is not a good
thing; what are your feelings on divs with percentage widths (see e.g. one
of a set of pages I'm trying to put together for a small project at
<URL:http://www.stephanbird .org.uk/Album/caravans1.html> )?

On a related note, is it possible to find out the height (of a horizontal
scrollbar) server-side i.e. without javascript or variants (naturally things
like height: 110% don't work)?

Stephan
--
Stephan Bird


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.799 / Virus Database: 543 - Release Date: 19/11/04

[Phil Thompson]

Re: Align DIV center?


"Andrew Thompson" <SeeMySites@www .invalid> wrote in message
news:seeb2cp60h 0p.1nq8rrglh3a6 v$.dlg@40tude.n et...[color=blue]
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:12:29 -0000, Phil Thompson wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Thankyou Gus. Fact of the matter is my solution was a bit shit but I
>> didn't
>> think I deserved the abuse I got.[/color]
>
> Excuse me?
>
> "If I understand your CSS correctly, it will only work for a page
> that is 500px wide. Please drag yourself into the third millenium!
>
> Given the effort that people who contribute to this group put
> into encouraging fluid layout and having everything exactly
> as big as the *user* wants, it is disappointing to see people
> encouraging fixed widths that would lock the size of the page."
>
> Which part of that represents 'abuse'?[/color]

asking me to 'drag myself into the third millenium' was less than nice and
Lauri comment of 'No. Please don't answer any posts until you have a clue. '
was also quite nasty. I wasn't asking to be talked to like that. I simply
offered an alternative solution as a benefit to the guy who originally
posted you should have pointed out the pitfalls in my solution and the
benfits in the the fluid method.
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>> But seems how it came from such excellent designers
>> http://www.1point1c.org/[/color]
>
> Thanks! You might also have listed my other three sites though
> (and if you follow the link to my personal site, you could add
> three more).
>
> Where's yours?[/color]
<snip />

I chose not to leave my url at the bottom of every post so as to not make it
seem as though I post just for hits. Not that people would do that. Yes I
checked out all your sites and they all have the same template so it didn't
need me to link all of them. N.B. It must be pointed out that
lensescapes.com doesn't and actually looks good.


Lets put this to rest now. You think that fluid is best and I think that
although fluid is great it doesn't always work out and that a fixed-width
design is sometimes the nest solution. Lets agree to disagree.


--
Phil Thompson

http://www.doubleonegative.com/

[Phil Thompson]

Re: Align DIV center?


"Lauri Raittila" <lauri@raittila .cjb.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c0b3a 0074cecf5598a18 3@news.individu al.net...[color=blue]
> in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets, Phil Thompson wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> "Lauri Raittila" <lauri@raittila .cjb.net> wrote in message
>> news:MPG.1c0b27 4923bc548c98a18 2@news.individu al.net...[/color]
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > No, fixed width works never best. Totally fluid is not best always
>> > either, but it is much better than fixed width[/color]
>>
>> Well it actually depends on the design. I notice that the perosnal
>> websites
>> of the two people haranging me, for advocating fixed-width design, aren't
>> very image intensive.[/color]
>
> That is because they aren't. That irrelevant.[/color]

Why is that irrelevant? Your preference for fluid layouts affects your
design decisions blatantly. If you were to start making your site more
image-intensive you will come across more dificulties trying to make your
design fluid. Please read why alistapart.com uses a fixed width design

http://www.alistapart.com/qa/#question21

[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>> A design with few images is a great candidate for a
>> fluid layout but a site with lots of background images (giving a design a
>> bit of character) sometimes needs fixed width.[/color]
>
> No, it doesn't. It sometimes needs some fixed elements. But I have yet to
> see any sensible reason to fix width of whole page to some width...
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>> >> Read other peoples opinions here:
>> >> http://www.designbyfire.com/000032.html
>> >
>> > http://www.htmlhelp.com/cgi-
>> > bin/validate.cgi?ur l=http://www.designbyfir e.com/000032.html&war nings=yes
>> >
>> > Don't take advice from people that use nested blockquotes to indent
>> > stuff. CSS1 was published 8 years ago, and margins were supported good
>> > enaugh in very first implementions.[/color]
>>
>> Have you see this man's resume? http://www.designbyfire.com/andrei.php I
>> think I will take advcie from him. He seems a lot more knowledgeable than
>> me
>> and you put together.[/color]
>
> So, he has been doing webpages since 1999. That is just 5 years less than
> me. He mentions mambo.com, which did not succeed. Then he mentions
> impresse.com, which doesn't seem to have same UI anymore. Then he has
> done web application. So, there is no website in public done by him,
> exept his own?
>
> See what person with real knowledge say:
> http://www.useit.com/
>[color=green]
>> What you have go to remember is to design for your audience, this site
>> has
>> an audience of web professionals who probably are goig to have very
>> similar
>> settings to the designer, that means large screen resolutions. Amazon and
>> Google et al have a wider audience and so must design with that in mind.
>> Google can't afford to make their site inaccessible to someone with a
>> screen
>> resolution of 640*480 but designbyfire.co m can.[/color]
>
> Well, designbyfire.co m would be very easy to make more fluid. And only
> thing people would miss is ability to scroll to see that right margin.
> His problem is that he sees this issue black and white. Either totally
> fluid or totally fixed. That is common, as all arguments against liquid
> layout depend on that.
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > Because said site uses fixed layout, I get scrollbar, and can scroll to
>> > see about 30px of orange margin on right. It looks much better when I
>> > force it to fit window. If this had been done differently, it would not
>> > force me to scroll to see margin.[/color]
>>
>> What screen resolution are you using? 800*600?[/color]
>
> Resolution is 1600*1200, which is irrelevant. Viewport is about 800*1150.
> But that is not the point, the point is that I get unnecessary scrollbar.
> There is absolutely no need for it.[/color]

Once again why is that irrelevant? Your resolution governs the maximum size
your browser viewport could be.

[color=blue]
>
> --
> Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>[/color]

[Martin Bialasinski]

Re: Align DIV center?

"Phil Thompson" <philSPAM@doubl onegative.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Once again why is that irrelevant? Your resolution governs the
> maximum size your browser viewport could be.[/color]

Why stop there? I could expand the browser to span all six virtual
desktops I use.

Bye,
Martin

[Martin Honnen]

Re: Align DIV center?



Axel Dahmen wrote:
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>>Set the width to something smaller than 100% and the margin to auto e.g.
>>> div.someClass {
>>> width: 100%;[/color]
>>
>>That should have been e.g.
>> width: 80%;
>>of course.[/color]
>
>
> I tried your solution (actually I'm
> a floating design evangelist myself *g*), but it doesn't really seem to work
> in IE6 (although on Firefox it does)... Is there some "bullet-proof"
> solution?[/color]

With IE 6 you need to make sure you get it into standards compliant
rendering mode, then it should work. You get IE 6 or other newer
browsers like Mozilla or Opera into standard compliant rendering mode by
including a DOCTYPE declaration (referring a HTML 4.01 DTD for instance).

--

Martin Honnen

http://JavaScript.FAQTs.com/

[Lauri Raittila]

Re: Align DIV center?

in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets, Phil Thompson wrote:[color=blue]
>
> "Andrew Thompson" <SeeMySites@www .invalid> wrote in message
> news:seeb2cp60h 0p.1nq8rrglh3a6 v$.dlg@40tude.n et...[color=green]
> > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:12:29 -0000, Phil Thompson wrote:
> >[color=darkred]
> >> Thankyou Gus. Fact of the matter is my solution was a bit shit but I
> >> didn't
> >> think I deserved the abuse I got.[/color]
> >
> > Excuse me?
> >
> > "If I understand your CSS correctly, it will only work for a page
> > that is 500px wide. Please drag yourself into the third millenium!
> >
> > Given the effort that people who contribute to this group put
> > into encouraging fluid layout and having everything exactly
> > as big as the *user* wants, it is disappointing to see people
> > encouraging fixed widths that would lock the size of the page."
> >
> > Which part of that represents 'abuse'?[/color]
>
> asking me to 'drag myself into the third millenium' was less than nice[/color]

IMHO, that was not good. But that is quite mild. I have called people
idiots and I have been called idiot many times here...
[color=blue]
> and
> Lauri comment of 'No. Please don't answer any posts until you have a clue. '
> was also quite nasty.[/color]

That aimed against your *very* clueless way to center things. And I still
mean it. If you don't understand why that was such, the advice is still
valid.
[color=blue]
> I wasn't asking to be talked to like that. I simply
> offered an alternative solution as a benefit to the guy who originally
> posted you should have pointed out the pitfalls in my solution and the
> benfits in the the fluid method.[/color]

Your solution was exeptionally bad. Much worse than something like "wrap
it to table, put another table inside the first table and then use
align=center".

--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>

[Lauri Raittila]

Re: Align DIV center?

in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets, Phil Thompson wrote:[color=blue]
>
> "Lauri Raittila" <lauri@raittila .cjb.net> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1c0b3a 0074cecf5598a18 3@news.individu al.net...[color=green]
> > in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets, Phil Thompson wrote:[color=darkred]
> >>
> >> > No, fixed width works never best. Totally fluid is not best always
> >> > either, but it is much better than fixed width
> >>
> >> Well it actually depends on the design. I notice that the perosnal
> >> websites
> >> of the two people haranging me, for advocating fixed-width design, aren't
> >> very image intensive.[/color]
> >
> > That is because they aren't. That irrelevant.[/color]
>
> Why is that irrelevant?[/color]

Because in Internet, there is n+1 pages. The fact that 2 people have non
graphic intensive pages, means nothing. Of course, even fixed layout
advocate understand that page with just text shoudl not be fixed width.

And if you used some other browser than IE, you would notice that my page
does not have overly long lines.
[color=blue]
> Your preference for fluid layouts affects your
> design decisions blatantly.[/color]

No, my design has little graphics, because I don't have digital camera,
and I haven't bothered to do layout images for my personal site. I am
working on quite complex, more graphic intensive site though. Will
hopefully be ready before new year. It is of course not fixed.
[color=blue]
> If you were to start making your site more
> image-intensive you will come across more dificulties trying to make your
> design fluid. Please read why alistapart.com uses a fixed width design
> http://www.alistapart.com/qa/#question21[/color]

I know that they are getting it wrong. There is no need to fix whole site
to limit text lenght, which I think I have said you at least twice.

As usual, they see just the opposite ends.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> A design with few images is a great candidate for a
> >> fluid layout but a site with lots of background images (giving a design a
> >> bit of character) sometimes needs fixed width.[/color]
> >
> > No, it doesn't. It sometimes needs some fixed elements. But I have yet to
> > see any sensible reason to fix width of whole page to some width...[/color][/color]

So, you didn't have answer to this question. I am not surprised.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > See what person with real knowledge say:
> > http://www.useit.com/[/color][/color]

Again, when real authority does something, you have nothing to say?
[color=blue][color=green]
> >
> > Resolution is 1600*1200, which is irrelevant.[/color]
>
> Once again why is that irrelevant? Your resolution governs the maximum size
> your browser viewport could be.[/color]

But, it does not mean that I use window that size. The window size is
meaningful, not the resolution. Of course, I can make my viewport bigger,
and quite easily too. But what is relevant is still the size of viewport
(viewport = windows client area, where website is drawn)

--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>

[Lauri Raittila]

Re: Align DIV center?

in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets, Martin Honnen wrote:
[color=blue]
> You get IE 6 or other newer
> browsers like Mozilla or Opera into standard compliant rendering mode by
> including a DOCTYPE declaration (referring a HTML 4.01 DTD for instance).[/color]

Transitional DTD whitout URL won't work though, use one with URI or
strict.

--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>

[Brian]

Re: Align DIV center?

Phil Thompson wrote:[color=blue]
> "Brian" wrote...
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>> Phil Thompson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Read other peoples opinions here:
>>>>> http://www.designbyfire.com/000032.html[/color]
>>
>> I'd take advice from this guy for visual design/interface, but
>> I wouldn't rely on him for markup advice.[/color]
>
>
> Isn't CSS about visual design?[/color]

Yes, visual design of documents on the www, documents created with HTML
or XHTML. And designing on the www means accepting it for what it is,
and for what it is not. Anyone can choose to ignore its strengths and
weaknesses, but there's a cost to that approach, naturally.

If someone doesn't understand why <h2-6> is better than <span
class="subtitle ">, then they have not yet grasped that strengths v.
weaknesses concept.
[color=blue]
> True his markup may be wanting[/color]

It's more serious than that, I think. I wouldn't take advice from him
for HTML, nor for CSS. If he were a consultant, and suggested a color
scheme or general layout, I'd be all ears (not least because I do not
have an eye for such things). But for the technical stuff regarding www
authoring, this guy is an amateur.
[color=blue]
> but someone must have noticed I linked to a page on his site because
> it contained lots of links to other webpages where others had
> expressed their opinions on this subject matter, not because I
> thought his page or his opinion was gospel.[/color]

Fair enough, but it's also fair play to critique the site for its
shortcomings.


--
Brian (remove "invalid" to email me)