CSS Fonts: Detect Font DPI use specific CSS

[Neal]

Re: CSS Fonts: Detect Font DPI use specific CSS

C A Upsdell wrote:
[color=blue]
> Wrong. Once upon a time, I did use % units, and I did have endless
> shrinking text size problems (at least with some browsers)[/color]

Which? I'd like to know, as I've never encountered such issues.

[Neal]

Re: CSS Fonts: Detect Font DPI use specific CSS

C A Upsdell wrote:[color=blue]
> "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" wrote
> 90%, that is.
> Not if it is nested, which what the OP was concerned with. 90% of 90% of
> 90% ... can quickly become too small to read ...[/color]

So, apply font-size more logically.

Do you need to apply a 90% in a 90% in a 90%, ever? Normally, I set
font-size for the body (at 100%) and set special things at say 90%. If you
never nest this upon itself, you avoid the problem.

think you're inventing an unrealistic problem.

[Christoph Paeper]

Re: CSS Fonts: Detect Font DPI use specific CSS

*brucie* <shit@usenetshi t.info>:[color=blue]
> Christoph Paeper said:
>[color=green]
>> My feeling is you set your preferred font size too low,[/color]
>
> theres nothing wrong with my font size. whats wrong is authors telling
> me should really be 10% smaller.[/color]

Nobody (serious) advertised a font size smaller than 100% for the _main
text_. I would not support a font size smaller than about 90% of the
user's selected comfortable size for anything less important than the main
text.
[color=blue]
> i don't like authors telling me what my font size should be (or how long
> the lines of text should be). stop trying to control me.[/color]

Not everything has to be the same size, but the text that matters should
be in the user's preferred size.
[color=blue]
> you have a killfile,[/color]

No, I don't.

--
Useless Fact #1:
Barbie's measurements if she were life size: 39-23-33 [99-58-84].

[brucie]

Re: CSS Fonts: Detect Font DPI use specific CSS

In comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets Christoph Paeper said:
[color=blue]
> Nobody (serious) advertised a font size smaller than 100% for the _main
> text_.[/color]

you want the content easy to read at the visitors preferred size but not
the navigation?
[color=blue]
> I would not support a font size smaller than about 90% of the user's
> selected comfortable size for anything less important than the main
> text.[/color]

thankfully i can specify a minimum font size (100%) so i can read all
the text. often it causes horizontal scrolling or the design falls apart
but at least i can read it.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> you have a killfile,[/color]
> No, I don't.[/color]

oh, i'll just shut up then.


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the facts and opinions expressed by brucies
l i t t l e v o i c e s
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[C A Upsdell]

Re: CSS Fonts: Detect Font DPI use specific CSS

"kchayka" <usenet@c-net.us> wrote in message
news:2vt2frF2ni s53U1@uni-berlin.de...[color=blue]
>C A Upsdell wrote:[color=green]
>> "kchayka" <usenet@c-net.us> wrote in message
>> news:2vstebF2og gguU1@uni-berlin.de...[color=darkred]
>>>
>>> % units do not trigger the "insanely small" text size
>>> problem in WinIE. Only em units do.[/color]
>>
>> Wrong. Once upon a time, I did use % units, and I did have endless
>> shrinking text size problems[/color]
>
> Caused by using a body text size smaller than 100%?
>
> Doctor, it hurts when I do this...[/color]

Then don't do this ...

[C A Upsdell]

Re: CSS Fonts: Detect Font DPI use specific CSS

"brucie" <shit@usenetshi t.info> wrote in message
news:1qb8jsffj7 i1y.dlg@usenets hit.info...[color=blue]
> In comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets C A Upsdell said:[color=green]
>> and switching to small, x-small, etc. stopped this problem for good.[/color]
>
> the problem with keywords is that browsers don't use the same base size.
> just as kchayka said.[/color]

Please explain. Are you simply referring to the IE problem, which as I have
explained several times is easily overcome?
[color=blue][color=green]
>> The inconsistency is in IE, easily overcome. And the CSS trickery which
>> overcomes this inconsistency can be copied and pasted from site to site,
>> changing only the selectors, as needed.[/color]
>
> or you could just use % and not fart around with unneeded hacks.[/color]

I could use %: but I would rather use something that works.

[kchayka]

Re: CSS Fonts: Detect Font DPI use specific CSS

C A Upsdell wrote:[color=blue]
> "kchayka" <usenet@c-net.us> wrote in message
> news:2vt2frF2ni s53U1@uni-berlin.de...[color=green]
>>
>> Doctor, it hurts when I do this...[/color]
>
> Then don't do this ...[/color]

You think you're following your own advice?

You put a bandaid on it by using font-size keywords instead of %. But
you're only treating the symptoms, not the problem.

The symptoms are a progressively smaller font-size with nested elements.
The problem is setting explicit sizes less than 100%. Stop doing that
and the symptoms disappear. You won't need any silly hacks, either.

--
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Please reply to the group so everyone can share.

[C A Upsdell]

Re: CSS Fonts: Detect Font DPI use specific CSS

"Neal" <neal413@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:opshi9oyim 6v6656@news.ind ividual.net...[color=blue]
>C A Upsdell wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Wrong. Once upon a time, I did use % units, and I did have endless
>> shrinking text size problems (at least with some browsers)[/color]
>
> Which? I'd like to know, as I've never encountered such issues.[/color]

A very worthy question. Unfortunately I can't show you because I fixed all
my live sites using the technique I have described. I did find two old
sites -- shut down and no longer on the web, but still on my PC -- which use
the % technique and which have the shrinking text problem with NN4.80,
IE5.01, IE5.5, and IE6.0 ... but NOT with Opera or Mozilla. Moreover, the
nature of the % problems suggests that they resulted from improper handling
of inheritance by the troublesome browsers.

Although I can't show you the dead sites, I hope that you will believe me
when I say that I have re-confirmed that such % problems exists in the
sites, and that the problems occurred ONLY with certain browsers whose
compliance with standards is (ahem!) not admirable.

[C A Upsdell]

Re: CSS Fonts: Detect Font DPI use specific CSS

"Neal" <neal413@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:opshi9tiz4 6v6656@news.ind ividual.net...[color=blue]
>C A Upsdell wrote:[color=green]
>> "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" wrote
>> 90%, that is.
>> Not if it is nested, which what the OP was concerned with. 90% of 90% of
>> 90% ... can quickly become too small to read ...[/color]
>
> So, apply font-size more logically.
>
> Do you need to apply a 90% in a 90% in a 90%, ever? Normally, I set
> font-size for the body (at 100%) and set special things at say 90%. If you
> never nest this upon itself, you avoid the problem.
>
> think you're inventing an unrealistic problem.[/color]

Not inventing. Note my response to another of your messages in which I
confirmed the problem ... with some browsers.

[C A Upsdell]

Re: CSS Fonts: Detect Font DPI use specific CSS

"kchayka" <usenet@c-net.us> wrote in message
news:2vtaduF2qu 6i2U1@uni-berlin.de...[color=blue]
>C A Upsdell wrote:[color=green]
>> "kchayka" <usenet@c-net.us> wrote in message
>> news:2vt2frF2ni s53U1@uni-berlin.de...[/color]
> You put a bandaid on it by using font-size keywords instead of %. But
> you're only treating the symptoms, not the problem.[/color]
[color=blue]
> The symptoms are a progressively smaller font-size with nested elements.
> The problem is setting explicit sizes less than 100%. Stop doing that
> and the symptoms disappear.[/color]

You misunderstand. The problem occurred only with sizes specified in %
units. And when I stopped using % units, in favour of my current method,
the problem disappeared. Moreover, the problem only occurred with certain
browsers (look for details in another of my messages on this thread), and
the pattern of the problems suggest that they were due to faulty handling of
inheritance by these browsers.

[brucie]

Re: CSS Fonts: Detect Font DPI use specific CSS

In comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets C A Upsdell said:
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>> Wrong. Once upon a time, I did use % units, and I did have endless
>>> shrinking text size problems (at least with some browsers)[/color][/color][/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Which? I'd like to know, as I've never encountered such issues.[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> A very worthy question. Unfortunately I can't show you because I fixed all
> my live sites using the technique I have described.[/color]

just whip up a quick demo. heres the IE ems bug when the font size is
set to 'smallest':

http://moreshit.usenetshit.info/ickky-poo-font-size-thingy.shit

for those that don't have IE this is what it looks like:
http://moreshit.usenetshit.info/ickk...ize-thingy.png [1k]

what its supposed to look like:
http://moreshit.usenetshit.info/yumm...ize-thingy.png [1k]


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l i t t l e v o i c e s
are not necessarily the same as those held by brucie.

[Neal]

Re: CSS Fonts: Detect Font DPI use specific CSS

C A Upsdell wrote:[color=blue]
> "Neal" wrote[color=green]
>> C A Upsdell wrote:[color=darkred]
>>> I did use % units, and I did have endless
>>> shrinking text size problems[/color]
>>
>> Which?[/color]
>
> A very worthy question. Unfortunately I can't show you... I hope that
> you will believe me
> when I say that I have re-confirmed that such % problems exists in the
> sites, and that the problems occurred ONLY with certain browsers whose
> compliance with standards is (ahem!) not admirable.[/color]

See, I use % exclusively, and I've never had such issues. I'd like to
believe you, but my experience tells me otherwise.

Perhaps you can go into the kitchen and whip up a little demo?

[Neal]

Re: CSS Fonts: Detect Font DPI use specific CSS

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:32:25 -0500, C A Upsdell
<cupsdell0311XX X@-@-@XXXrogers.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> "Neal" <neal413@yahoo. com> wrote in message
> news:opshi9tiz4 6v6656@news.ind ividual.net...[color=green]
>> C A Upsdell wrote:[color=darkred]
>>> "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" wrote
>>> 90%, that is.
>>> Not if it is nested, which what the OP was concerned with. 90% of 90%
>>> of
>>> 90% ... can quickly become too small to read ...[/color]
>>
>> So, apply font-size more logically.
>>
>> Do you need to apply a 90% in a 90% in a 90%, ever? Normally, I set
>> font-size for the body (at 100%) and set special things at say 90%. If
>> you
>> never nest this upon itself, you avoid the problem.
>>
>> think you're inventing an unrealistic problem.[/color]
>
> Not inventing. Note my response to another of your messages in which I
> confirmed the problem ... with some browsers.[/color]

I did a test - see http://users.rcn.com/neal413/fontsizetest.html - where
I compare calculated percentages to what it should be. In each section
we're comparing:

1) 81%
2) 90% nested in 90%
3) 100% (baseline)
4) 90% of 90% of 90%
5) 72.9%

1) and 2), and 3) and 4), should be the same size, one calculated in the
browser, the other calculated by hand and set as a direct size.

The three sections themselves are 200%, 150%, and 100%. As you would
expect, the browser has to do a lot of math to calculate a font size here.

Best results were seen in Firefox. I could not discern the direct
percentage from the calculated percentage.

Next best - surprise - IE6. In the 200% * 72.9% div, it looks too small as
compared to when IE calculate 200% * 90% * 90% * 90%. All others work out
fine.

The worst was Opera 7.23. Browser calculations nearly always rendered
smaller than the equivalent direct % size, the opposite of the one issue
in IE.

However, the nesting I have done is intentionally heavy. I imagine the
reasons for the size differences are due to how the browser rounds in its
math. The sizes are not so drastically different that I suspect there's
harm in my continuing to use % exclusively in my CSS font sizes. So long
as we avoid heavy nesting, it should work out.

I'm interested in the observations of others and results in other
browsers, or differences in the same browsers on other machines.

[Neal]

Re: CSS Fonts: Detect Font DPI use specific CSS

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 03:46:42 -0500, Neal <neal413@yahoo. com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> 1) and 2), and 3) and 4), should be the same size, one calculated in the
> browser, the other calculated by hand and set as a direct size.[/color]

Correction - 1 and 2 should be the same, and 4 and 5 should be the same.

[brucie]

Re: CSS Fonts: Detect Font DPI use specific CSS

In comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets Neal said:
[color=blue]
> I did a test - see http://users.rcn.com/neal413/fontsizetest.html - where
> I compare calculated percentages to what it should be. In each section
> we're comparing:
>
> 1) 81%
> 2) 90% nested in 90%
> 3) 100% (baseline)
> 4) 90% of 90% of 90%
> 5) 72.9%
>
> 1) and 2), and 3) and 4), should be the same size, one calculated in the
> browser, the other calculated by hand and set as a direct size.
>
> The three sections themselves are 200%, 150%, and 100%. As you would
> expect, the browser has to do a lot of math to calculate a font size here.
>
> Best results were seen in Firefox. I could not discern the direct
> percentage from the calculated percentage.
>
> Next best - surprise - IE6. In the 200% * 72.9% div, it looks too small as
> compared to when IE calculate 200% * 90% * 90% * 90%. All others work out
> fine.[/color]

ummm.... thats just making my poor little head hurt. this is what it
looks like.

from left to right: opera7.6p3. FF1.0 and IE6
http://moreshit.usenetshit.info/font-size-thingy.png [11k]


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the facts and opinions expressed by brucies
l i t t l e v o i c e s
are not necessarily the same as those held by brucie.