Comparing stylesheets

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: Comparing stylesheets


"Neal" <neal413@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:opsf4qrcpk 6v6656@news.ind ividual.net...[color=blue]
> On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:18:13 -0400, Harlan Messinger
> <h.messinger@co mcast.net> wrote:
>[color=green]
> >
> > "Neal" <neal413@yahoo. com> wrote in message
> > news:opsf4pz1jg 6v6656@news.ind ividual.net...[color=darkred]
> >> If the page is long and has numerous link points throughout, it[/color][/color][/color]
probably[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> ought to have a table of contents. "Go to table of contents" is more
> >> meaningful than "Go to top", because the user might assume that they
> >> WERE
> >> at the top, so why bother clicking there?[/color]
> >
> > If you're a user and you see a link that tells you "Go to top", you know
> > instantly that you're not already at the top, and it no longer matters[/color][/color]
if[color=blue][color=green]
> > you didn't know it a moment earlier.[/color]
>
> What I mean is this:
>
> I click a link and I get this:
>
> ---------- top of viewport ----------
> This is the information I linked to.
>
> Paragraph paragraph paragraph, I need
> to scroll down to get to the bottom.
>
> This is the last paragraph.
>
> _Go to top_
>
> Now, I'm thinking this link will merely bring me to the starting point I
> was at up the page a bit, which as far as I knew was the top. In fact, it
> will bring me to a region of the page I don't even know existed.[/color]

I kind of know what you mean. But then, for regular user these links become
*associated* with pages where they might have arrived in the middle. So it
provides useful information. And for newbies who didn't realize that when
they come to a web page, they might not be at the top--well, you gotta learn
*some* time!
[color=blue]
>
> If the link read _Go to table of contents_, well, I know I haven't seen
> that. It's worth it to me to click here.[/color]

That makes sense.

[Lauri Raittila]

Back to top links (Re: Comparing stylesheets)

David wrote;[color=blue]
> Lauri Raittila <lauri@raittila .cjb.net> wrote:
> (in message news:<MPG.1bdee bf6dc4b366a98a0 6c@news.individ ual.net>)[/color]

[Code confusion about
A.backtotop:lin k { foo:bar;}
&
A.backtotop:lin k { bar:foo;}
]
[color=blue][color=green]
> > Easy solution: Back to top links are not good idea, so delete both and
> > markup related...[/color]
>
>
> Interesting. Perhaps not the forum for it (I imagine we'd get justly
> flamed for discussing non-css stuff),[/color]

So X&fups to ciwah
[color=blue]
> but if you want to take this off
> list I'd be interested to know your reasons for saying back to top
> links aren't a good idea...it's something I've never heard before...[/color]

Here is what I can think:

1. There is functionality in browser
2. It never is only option
3. It makes keyboard navigation harder (assuming there is other links in
page)
4. It doesn't tell what is on the top - so why would someone follow that
link?
5. Sometimes link don't work, and user may avoid it because. For example,
if there is no anchor at the top of page. Surprisingly often top of
page links are done by just <a href="#">, and so don't work on some
browsers. (Opera 7.6p1, for example)
6. Only tells you that you are not at the top of document, if it is first
thing after anchor. Otherwise, one can think that it is link to back
the anchor, which user arrived to, if we suppose he didn't knew he
wasn't on top in first place.
7. Back to the top is confusing, if user never was on the top.

Can't think any use for them, that would really help.

I do use them sometimes, if availble. Even so often that I have noticed
#5. Also, when I tried to disable scrollbars, noticed #6. #7 is #7
because "back to top" links are so much used.



--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>

[David]

Re: Comparing stylesheets

"Harlan Messinger" <h.messinger@co mcast.net> wrote in message news:<2tkvpdF1v qns8U1@uni-berlin.de>...[color=blue][color=green]
> >
> > As a user, have you ever used one of them?[/color]
>
> Yes, frequently.[/color]


Yeah, I agree. Use them all the time and find them quite useful.
Especially useful when using lynx/links, screen magnifiers. They're
more or less ubiquitous, have no detrimental effects on the browsing
experience worth mentioning, so you might as well provide them. Lots
of people use them. Rock on back to top links.

[David]

Re: Comparing stylesheets

Neal <neal413@yahoo. com> wrote in message news:<opsf4qrcp k6v6656@news.in dividual.net>.. .[color=blue]
>
> What I mean is this:
>
> I click a link and I get this:
>
> ---------- top of viewport ----------
> This is the information I linked to.
>
> Paragraph paragraph paragraph, I need
> to scroll down to get to the bottom.
>
> This is the last paragraph.
>
> _Go to top_
>
> Now, I'm thinking this link will merely bring me to the starting point I
> was at up the page a bit, which as far as I knew was the top. In fact, it
> will bring me to a region of the page I don't even know existed.[/color]


Yes. "top of page" would be more descriptive link text.

[Neal]

Re: Comparing stylesheets

On 19 Oct 2004 16:43:25 -0700, David <david_newz@yah oo.co.uk> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Neal <neal413@yahoo. com> wrote in message
> news:<opsf4qrcp k6v6656@news.in dividual.net>.. .[color=green]
>> _Go to top_
>>
>> Now, I'm thinking this link will merely bring me to the starting point I
>> was at up the page a bit, which as far as I knew was the top. In fact,
>> it
>> will bring me to a region of the page I don't even know existed.[/color]
>
>
> Yes. "top of page" would be more descriptive link text.[/color]

But that still doesn't avoid the problem that as far as I knew, I was
already at the top of the page. Why click it? I just read what was there.

Best to use content-related link text rather than position-related.

[Chris Morris]

Re: Comparing stylesheets

david_newz@yaho o.co.uk (David) writes:[color=blue]
> "Harlan Messinger" <h.messinger@co mcast.net> wrote:[/color]
[back to top links][color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > As a user, have you ever used one of them?[/color]
> >
> > Yes, frequently.[/color]
>
> Yeah, I agree. Use them all the time and find them quite useful.
> Especially useful when using lynx/links,[/color]

Really? In those browsers I find it far quicker to hit home on the
keyboard than to press up/down a few times to get to the back to top
link and then press return.

--
Chris

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: Comparing stylesheets

Neal <neal413@yahoo. com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>On 19 Oct 2004 16:43:25 -0700, David <david_newz@yah oo.co.uk> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Neal <neal413@yahoo. com> wrote in message
>> news:<opsf4qrcp k6v6656@news.in dividual.net>.. .[color=darkred]
>>> _Go to top_
>>>
>>> Now, I'm thinking this link will merely bring me to the starting point I
>>> was at up the page a bit, which as far as I knew was the top. In fact,
>>> it
>>> will bring me to a region of the page I don't even know existed.[/color]
>>
>>
>> Yes. "top of page" would be more descriptive link text.[/color]
>
>But that still doesn't avoid the problem that as far as I knew, I was
>already at the top of the page. Why click it? I just read what was there.[/color]

These links are especially useful on pages that begin with a large
number down-links. FAQs, for example. They simplify the pattern of
jumping down to one piece of information of interest and then
returning to the list of links.
[color=blue]
>
>Best to use content-related link text rather than position-related.[/color]


--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ôter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.

[David]

Re: Comparing stylesheets

Chris Morris <c.i.morris@dur ham.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<873c09zq3 k.fsf@dinopsis. dur.ac.uk>...[color=blue][color=green]
> >
> > Yeah, I agree. Use them all the time and find them quite useful.
> > Especially useful when using lynx/links,[/color]
>
> Really? In those browsers I find it far quicker to hit home on the
> keyboard than to press up/down a few times to get to the back to top
> link and then press return.[/color]


You know, I can honestly say that until I read this thread, I had *no
idea* that the home button took you to the top of a page. I've been
building websites since 1996.

<makes sudden mental leap />

....and the end button takes you to the bottom! Excellent.

<repeatedly mashes head into desk />

[Neal]

Re: Comparing stylesheets

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 07:34:00 -0400, Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.rem ovethis@comcast .net> wrote:[color=blue]
> Neal <neal413@yahoo. com> wrote:[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> Yes. "top of page" would be more descriptive link text.[/color]
>>
>> But that still doesn't avoid the problem that as far as I knew, I was
>> already at the top of the page. Why click it? I just read what was
>> there.[/color]
>
> These links are especially useful on pages that begin with a large
> number down-links. FAQs, for example. They simplify the pattern of
> jumping down to one piece of information of interest and then
> returning to the list of links.[/color]

Yes, but we're not arguing about the same thing. The link is a good idea.
Calling it "top" is not. It's the link text "top" that is ambiguous. As I
said,
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Best to use content-related link text rather than position-related.[/color][/color]

Name the link for the content it brings you to, not the geographical place
it goes. All goes back to not mentioning the mechanics, semantics, good
link text, etc.

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: Comparing stylesheets


"David" <david_newz@yah oo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9938c22f.0 410200750.73624 57c@posting.goo gle.com...[color=blue]
> Chris Morris <c.i.morris@dur ham.ac.uk> wrote in message[/color]
news:<873c09zq3 k.fsf@dinopsis. dur.ac.uk>...[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > >
> > > Yeah, I agree. Use them all the time and find them quite useful.
> > > Especially useful when using lynx/links,[/color]
> >
> > Really? In those browsers I find it far quicker to hit home on the
> > keyboard than to press up/down a few times to get to the back to top
> > link and then press return.[/color]
>
>
> You know, I can honestly say that until I read this thread, I had *no
> idea* that the home button took you to the top of a page. I've been
> building websites since 1996.
>
> <makes sudden mental leap />
>
> ...and the end button takes you to the bottom! Excellent.
>
> <repeatedly mashes head into desk />[/color]

Except that I can't figure out how to get the keys to work consistently in
Firefox. I know, RTFM, but I haven't done that yet.

[Lauri Raittila]

Re: Comparing stylesheets

David wrote;[color=blue]
> Chris Morris:[color=green][color=darkred]
> > >
> > > Yeah, I agree. Use them all the time and find them quite useful.
> > > Especially useful when using lynx/links,[/color]
> >
> > Really? In those browsers I find it far quicker to hit home on the
> > keyboard than to press up/down a few times to get to the back to top
> > link and then press return.[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> You know, I can honestly say that until I read this thread, I had *no
> idea* that the home button took you to the top of a page. I've been
> building websites since 1996.[/color]

That is your problem - you have been testing in lynx, but not
really using it. Just like Chris, who haven't enabled quick go etc
function to follow link using numbers, instead of using clumsy arrows...
(makes lynx usability better than opera)


--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>