zen question

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: zen question


"Mark Tranchant" <mark@tranchant .plus.com> wrote in message
news:j3fAc.1608 3$NK4.2712637@s tones.force9.ne t...[color=blue]
> Berislav Lopac wrote:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> >>"CSS" is not an acronym, though.[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
> > What it is if not an acronym? 'CSS' is an acronym; 'abbr' is an
> > abbreviation.[/color]
>
> An acronym is usually defined as being pronounceable as a word, like
> NATO. abbr is indeed an abbreviation, but so is ICBM and CSS. These are
> initial-type abbreviations, whereas abbr is a contraction-type
> abbreviation (my terms).
>
> These definitions are quite woolly, though...[/color]

The confusion would be abated by *adopting* a word specifically for strings
of initials that haven't become an acronym. I propose adapting the word used
in French for this purpose, "sigle", perhaps converting it to "siggle"
first.

[Mark Tranchant]

Re: zen question

Harlan Messinger wrote:
[color=blue]
> "Mark Tranchant" <mark@tranchant .plus.com> wrote in message
> news:j3fAc.1608 3$NK4.2712637@s tones.force9.ne t...[/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
>>An acronym is usually defined as being pronounceable as a word, like
>>NATO. abbr is indeed an abbreviation, but so is ICBM and CSS. These are
>>initial-type abbreviations, whereas abbr is a contraction-type
>>abbreviatio n (my terms).
>>
>>These definitions are quite woolly, though...[/color]
>
>
> The confusion would be abated by *adopting* a word specifically for strings
> of initials that haven't become an acronym. I propose adapting the word used
> in French for this purpose, "sigle", perhaps converting it to "siggle"
> first.[/color]

A good suggestion, and I like "siggle", but "initialism " exists for this
already:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=initialism

--
Mark.

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: zen question


"Mark Tranchant" <mark@tranchant .plus.com> wrote in message
news:iGhAc.1614 6$NK4.2728188@s tones.force9.ne t...[color=blue]
> Harlan Messinger wrote:
>[color=green]
> > "Mark Tranchant" <mark@tranchant .plus.com> wrote in message
> > news:j3fAc.1608 3$NK4.2712637@s tones.force9.ne t...[/color]
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> >>An acronym is usually defined as being pronounceable as a word, like
> >>NATO. abbr is indeed an abbreviation, but so is ICBM and CSS. These are
> >>initial-type abbreviations, whereas abbr is a contraction-type
> >>abbreviatio n (my terms).
> >>
> >>These definitions are quite woolly, though...[/color]
> >
> >
> > The confusion would be abated by *adopting* a word specifically for[/color][/color]
strings[color=blue][color=green]
> > of initials that haven't become an acronym. I propose adapting the word[/color][/color]
used[color=blue][color=green]
> > in French for this purpose, "sigle", perhaps converting it to "siggle"
> > first.[/color]
>
> A good suggestion, and I like "siggle", but "initialism " exists for this
> already:
>
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=initialism[/color]

Ah, so it does: Merriam-Webster Collegiate on-line has it too. Too bad--I
was fond of "siggle" as soon as I thought of it.

[Philipp Lenssen]

Re: zen question

Alan J. Flavell wrote:
[color=blue]
> On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
>[color=green]
> > "Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@ph.gla .ac.uk> wrote:
> >[color=darkred]
> > > "CSS" is not an acronym, though.[/color]
> >
> > In the CSS Zen Garden context, it is understandable that they
> > didn't use <abbr>, since <abbr> markup is useless for the purpose
> > of styling as far as IE is considered, and the Garden aims at being
> > a practical demonstration.[/color]
>
> I don't disagree; but the mere fact that IE doesn't support <abbr> is
> IMNSHO no excuse for misrepresenting the term to WWW-compatible
> browsers.
>[/color]

The Zen Garden is all about convincing people to use CSS. I'd say any
measurement can be taken to convince people to use CSS :)
I use <acronym>...</acronym> on my blog for the sole reason the
title-attribute breaks in <abbr>...</abbr>, knowing this is a hack --
but I find it's pragmatic enough. Let's face it, the W3C shouldn't have
invented two elements for this in the first place. (Maybe that would
have convinced the lazy Microsoft programmer to support
<abbr>...</abbr>, but who knows why IE doesn't understand this.) Did
anybody ever mention the W3C invented a whole lot of phrase markup
which we don't need as much as some others which seem to be lacking
(e.g. "footnote", for one)?

--
Google Blogoscoped

http://blog.outer-court.com

[Philipp Lenssen]

Re: zen question

Alan J. Flavell wrote:
[color=blue]
> On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Berislav Lopac wrote:
>[/color]
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > 'CSS' is an acronym;[/color]
>
> Merely repeating the disputed assertion doesn't make it any more or
> less valid, though.[/color]

Hint to Berislav: "CSS" would be an acronym if you would pronounce it
"Cass" or something instead of "Sea-Ess-Ess". Unfortunately it's only
an abbreviation (for which we have the <abbr>-element).

--
Google Blogoscoped

http://blog.outer-court.com

[Darin McGrew]

Re: zen question

Philipp Lenssen <info@outer-court.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> Did
> anybody ever mention the W3C invented a whole lot of phrase markup
> which we don't need as much as some others which seem to be lacking
> (e.g. "footnote", for one)?[/color]

Alas, poor HTML 3.0! I knew it, Horatio: a draft of infinite elements, of
most excellent attributes: it hath borne structure on its back a thousand
times; and now, how abhorred in my imagination it is!

Generic captioned figures (a la HTML 3.0's FIG) would have been nice too.
--
Darin McGrew, mcgrew@stanford alumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, darin@htmlhelp. com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"I've cut this board three times, and it's still too short!"

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Re: zen question

Tim <tim@mail.local host.invalid> wrote:
[color=blue]
> On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 06:07:10 +0000 (UTC),
> "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tu t.fi> posted:
>[color=green]
>> For example, <h3><span>... </span></h3> lets the
>> author make the heading text just as wide as needed, e.g. in order
>> to use background that wide. For an inline element like <span>
>> that's trivial, but for a block element like <h3>, there's no
>> practical way at present.[/color]
>
> Have you ever tried restyling an h tag as an inline element?[/color]

Yes, but making a heading an inline element is too restrictive.
[color=blue]
> So far,
> on the browsers I've tried it with, you can get the same effect.
>
> e.g. h3 {display: inline; color: white; background-color: blue;}[/color]

Up to a point, yes, but e.g. margin-top and margin-bottom do not affect
non-replaced inline elements. And for good typography, margins around
headings should normally be changed from common defaults (at least so
that top margin is larger than bottom margin).

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

[Tim]

Re: zen question

"Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tu t.fi> posted:
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>> For example, <h3><span>... </span></h3> lets the
>>> author make the heading text just as wide as needed, e.g. in order
>>> to use background that wide. For an inline element like <span>
>>> that's trivial, but for a block element like <h3>, there's no
>>> practical way at present.[/color][/color][/color]


Tim <tim@mail.local host.invalid> wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Have you ever tried restyling an h tag as an inline element?[/color][/color]


"Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tu t.fi> posted:
[color=blue]
> Yes, but making a heading an inline element is too restrictive.[/color]

I know it seems a daft thing to do, but it does seem to work okay where
I've tried that trick, because there's other block elements either side of
it.

e.g. <p>something</p> <h2>something </h2> <p>something</p>

[color=blue][color=green]
>> So far, on the browsers I've tried it with, you can get the same effect.
>>
>> e.g. h3 {display: inline; color: white; background-color: blue;}[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> Up to a point, yes, but e.g. margin-top and margin-bottom do not affect
> non-replaced inline elements. And for good typography, margins around
> headings should normally be changed from common defaults (at least so
> that top margin is larger than bottom margin).[/color]

Well, it was a very simple example. ;-) You could, of course, put more
information around that to put in margins and the like, but then you're not
that far away from playing with the span trick, then, anyway.

I suppose there's some credence to the idea that you're trying "emphasise"
a heading by colouring it in, so you could do a <h2><em>heading </em></h2>
trick, and style em elements within h2 elements. ;-)

--
If you insist on e-mailing me, use the reply-to address (it's real but
temporary). But please reply to the group, like you're supposed to.

This message was sent without a virus, please delete some files yourself.

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Re: zen question

Tim <tim@mail.local host.invalid> wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Yes, but making a heading an inline element is too restrictive.[/color]
>
> I know it seems a daft thing to do, but it does seem to work okay
> where I've tried that trick, because there's other block elements
> either side of it.
>
> e.g. <p>something</p> <h2>something </h2> <p>something</p>[/color]

A heading is not necessarily preceded or followed by a paragraph but e.g.
by a <div> element. And how would you arrange things so that the top
margin for the heading is larger than bottom margin, if any attempt to do
so directly fails (because you've made <h2> an inline element)? It's
possible, but awkward.
[color=blue]
> I suppose there's some credence to the idea that you're trying
> "emphasise" a heading by colouring it in, so you could do a
> <h2><em>heading </em></h2> trick, and style em elements within h2
> elements. ;-)[/color]

And have it italicized on non-CSS browsers. I wouldn't recommend using
such artificial markup; if you want redundant inline markup for the
purpose of styling, use <span> - it has the additional benefit of not
having any default effect on rendering.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/