*:focus { outline: none }

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  • Alan J. Flavell

    #16
    Re: *:focus { outline: none }

    On Sun, 18 Jan 2004, Markus Ernst wrote:

    [...][color=blue]
    > If you deny the importance of representation you are not covering
    > the whole of the web, but only a part of it.[/color]

    Sometimes, at the end of the day, those who are commissioning a web
    site will not accept one's best advice, and one has to accept a
    compromise (unless the situation is crass enough to want to walk away
    from). That's the way things are. But it isn't going to stop me from
    offering best advice to the next one who asks, and offering it here
    too if the question is raised.

    I don't accept your accusation that I "deny the importance of
    representation" . But I -do- try to give priority to the end user.

    As a general comment without any specific relevance to the current
    issue of detail, but:

    Sometimes I think that many commercial web sites have been designed
    primarily for initimidating their competitors (popularly known as
    "pissing around the boundaries of the territory"), without any clear
    consideration for those who actually want to _use_ the pages, i.e
    their customers and potential customers.

    Some of them even have concealed or hard-to-find back doors for
    customers to bypass the intimidation, and actually get to the content.
    Often, one only finds those back doors by talking to their support
    staff: I'm naming no names, but I have several companies in mind that
    we need to cope with day by day.

    Comment

    • Brian

      #17
      Re: *:focus { outline: none }

      Markus Ernst wrote:[color=blue]
      >
      > unfortunately Microsoft decided to interfere with my design by
      > adding lines around every clicked link by default.[/color]

      Microsoft do lots of dumb things. Adding a border around visited links
      when the user goes back in the history is not one of them. It adds
      information that a user may come to rely on.
      [color=blue]
      > As a huge mayority of visual browser users access links with a
      > mouse this is a quite invasive thing.[/color]

      How is that "invasive?"
      [color=blue]
      > People who prefer to use the keyboard to click links are somehow a
      > special interest group (I don't know anybody).[/color]

      Hello. My name is Brian. Now you do know somebody who uses the
      keyboard. Not exclusively. I have a mouse. But I also suffer from
      carpal tunnel syndrome, and sometimes must resort to the keyboard.

      --
      Brian

      follow the directions in my address to email me

      Comment

      • Markus Ernst

        #18
        Re: *:focus { outline: none }

        "Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@ph.gla .ac.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
        news:Pine.LNX.4 .53.04011816193 70.10332@ppepc5 6.ph.gla.ac.uk. ..[color=blue]
        > On Sun, 18 Jan 2004, Markus Ernst wrote:
        >
        > [...][color=green]
        > > If you deny the importance of representation you are not covering
        > > the whole of the web, but only a part of it.[/color]
        >
        > Sometimes, at the end of the day, those who are commissioning a web
        > site will not accept one's best advice, and one has to accept a
        > compromise (unless the situation is crass enough to want to walk away
        > from). That's the way things are. But it isn't going to stop me from
        > offering best advice to the next one who asks, and offering it here
        > too if the question is raised.[/color]

        I highly appreciate that.
        [color=blue]
        > I don't accept your accusation that I "deny the importance of
        > representation" . But I -do- try to give priority to the end user.[/color]

        Yes I did not meant to accuse you - that sencence might have been more
        inspired by former discussions on this topic than by your posting, and I
        apologize.
        [color=blue]
        > As a general comment without any specific relevance to the current
        > issue of detail, but:
        >
        > Sometimes I think that many commercial web sites have been designed
        > primarily for initimidating their competitors (popularly known as
        > "pissing around the boundaries of the territory"), without any clear
        > consideration for those who actually want to _use_ the pages, i.e
        > their customers and potential customers.
        >
        > Some of them even have concealed or hard-to-find back doors for
        > customers to bypass the intimidation, and actually get to the content.
        > Often, one only finds those back doors by talking to their support
        > staff: I'm naming no names, but I have several companies in mind that
        > we need to cope with day by day.[/color]


        Comment

        • Markus Ernst

          #19
          Re: *:focus { outline: none }

          "Brian" <usenet2@juliet remblay.com.inv alid-remove-this-part> schrieb im
          Newsbeitrag news:X8IOb.8119 3$Rc4.291690@at tbi_s54...[color=blue]
          > Markus Ernst wrote:[color=green]
          > >
          > > unfortunately Microsoft decided to interfere with my design by
          > > adding lines around every clicked link by default.[/color]
          >
          > Microsoft do lots of dumb things. Adding a border around visited links
          > when the user goes back in the history is not one of them. It adds
          > information that a user may come to rely on.
          >[color=green]
          > > As a huge mayority of visual browser users access links with a
          > > mouse this is a quite invasive thing.[/color]
          >
          > How is that "invasive?"
          >[color=green]
          > > People who prefer to use the keyboard to click links are somehow a
          > > special interest group (I don't know anybody).[/color]
          >
          > Hello. My name is Brian. Now you do know somebody who uses the
          > keyboard. Not exclusively. I have a mouse. But I also suffer from
          > carpal tunnel syndrome, and sometimes must resort to the keyboard.
          >
          > --
          > Brian
          > http://www.tsmchughs.com
          > follow the directions in my address to email me[/color]

          Hello Brian, nice to meet you :-)

          I had a look at the tsmchughs.com. I was not aware of the possibility of
          a:focus and I like the way you implemented it. Actually I was not aware of
          the importance of accessibility features on visual browsers either, as I
          thaught if a page was accessible with a non-javascript text-only browser it
          was perfectly accessible to everybody.

          --
          Markus


          Comment

          • Stephen Poley

            #20
            Re: *:focus { outline: none }

            On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 17:11:25 +0100, "Markus Ernst"
            <derernst@NO#SP #AMgmx.ch> wrote:
            [color=blue]
            >People who prefer to use the keyboard to click links are somehow a special
            >interest group (I don't know anybody).[/color]

            Pleased to meet you. That's at least two of us just in this thread.
            As it is commonly recommended to use keyboard rather than mouse where
            possible to reduce the risk of RSI, the number of people who prefer to
            use the keyboard is certainly large and increasing.

            --
            Stephen Poley


            Comment

            • Brian

              #21
              Re: *:focus { outline: none }

              Markus Ernst wrote:[color=blue]
              > Brian schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:X8IOb.8119 3$Rc4.291690@at tbi_s54...
              >[color=green]
              >> http://www.tsmchughs.com[/color]
              >
              > I had a look at the tsmchughs.com. I was not aware of the
              > possibility of a:focus and I like the way you implemented it.[/color]

              Thank you. For others who might be curious, there's no magic at work
              on that site. I simply add a:focus to declarations for a:hover, e.g.,

              a:hover, a:focus {
              color: #00c;
              background-color: #555;
              }
              [color=blue]
              > Actually I was not aware of the importance of accessibility
              > features on visual browsers either, as I thaught if a page was
              > accessible with a non-javascript text-only browser it was perfectly
              > accessible to everybody.[/color]

              Some features such as using correct markup, consistent navigation,
              etc., do overlap. There are some things that are extra, but such
              extras are often trivial to add, including a:focus. I've lifted some
              ideas from others in ciwas, too. The contact form offers some visual
              cues on :focus. I got that from David Dorward's site.

              --
              Brian (follow directions in my address to email me)


              Comment

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