Arghh - why is this SPAN placed elsewhere in NS7?

[Barbara de Zoete]

Re: Arghh - why is this SPAN placed elsewhere in NS7?

Stephen Poley schreef:[color=blue]
> On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 13:22:49 +0100, Barbara de Zoete
> <b_de_zoete@hot mail.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>BTW: about the problem of the Verdana font-size, if set to a smaller
>>size than 1em, it renders fine in IE(over 90% of my visitors use IE as
>>their browser) and if someone uses a screen browser *other* than IE, I
>>tend to think "S/he knows how to set font-size to a comfortable size".[/color]
>
> Well yes, but the point is that having done so, they shouldn't have to
> re-adjust the size for every site individually. (OK, given the state the
> Web is in at present, one often has to anyway, but one shouldn't have to
> really).[/color]

I know. (Ohoh. Starting this discussion again. Maybe not such a good
idea). And I still serve them a page with wich they have to.
[color=blue]
> And if they don't have Verdana on their system, displaying at
> 85% gives them smaller text than they would like.[/color]

My pages have a 'liquid design', so one [Ctrl]+[+] or equivalent will
do. If they don't want to, they will just leave. I just hope my content
will invite them to hit [Ctrl]+[+].
[color=blue]
> This isn't a really big issue of course, compared to a lot of the
> problems on the Web, but on the whole it would be better not to use
> Verdana.[/color]

I decided differently. Based on the large majority of my visitors using
IE as their browser.
[color=blue][color=green]
>>I like the way it looks, better than other fonts I know.[/color]
>
> That's your prerogative of course. I find it rather unattractive myself.[/color]

Well, that's cool. Taste. I'm pretty sure we wont be able to convince
eachother either of our tastes is better. Lets not discuss about taste,
but rather stick to technique. It's hard enough to agree on that ;-)

--

Barbara

http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/weblog.html *Dagboek*
http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html *Zweefvliegen*?

[Barbara de Zoete]

Re: Arghh - why is this SPAN placed elsewhere in NS7?

Beauregard T. Shagnasty schreef:
[color=blue]
> Quoth the raven named Barbara de Zoete:
>[color=green]
>> I have no idea how many pages out there compy with technical specs,
>> but I think it can not be that big a percentage.[/color]
>
> Several months ago, a fellow published his doctoral thesis, on exactly
> this subject. For awhile, the ~6MB .pdf document was available. His
> programmatic scanning of millions of web pages (I've forgotten the
> actual number) found an answer.
>
> 0.7% met the W3C guidelines as validated pages.[/color]

Ouch, this is much less than I expected. Makes me wonder, why bother
about validation?
[color=blue]
> Generally, this means that most of the rest would render in "quirks"
> mode, and be at the mercy of the browser's decision, not the author's.[/color]

Ehrm? Quirks mode because of mistakes? I thought Quirks mode or Standard
compliance mode had to do with the doctype declaration in the top of the
document. Making mistakes is very much still possible, even if the
doctype declaration is correct and puts a page in 'Standard'.

But, yes, if one makes a mistake, there is no way to predict how the
various browsers will handle the part where the mistake is made. Much
less how future versions of browsers will handle it. The author is not
really in control.

--

Barbara

http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/weblog.html *Dagboek*
http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html *Zweefvliegen*?

[Christoph Paeper]

Re: Arghh - why is this SPAN placed elsewhere in NS7?

*Barbara de Zoete* <b_de_zoete@hot mail.com>:[color=blue]
>
> I just hope my content will invite them to hit [Ctrl]+[+].
>
> [...]
>
> I decided differently. Based on the large majority of my visitors using
> IE as their browser.[/color]

Hmm, could there be a connection?
F'up2 comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets

--
Useless Fact #14:
There are 102,981,500 ways to combine six of the 8-studed LEGO bricks of one
color.
Since 1949, the LEGO company, based in Denmark, has produced more than
200,000,000,000 of the plastic elements that make up the Lego System.

[Eric Bohlman]

Re: Arghh - why is this SPAN placed elsewhere in NS7?

Barbara de Zoete <b_de_zoete@hot mail.com> wrote in news:bqs61n$25p n5r$1@ID-
52872.news.uni-berlin.de:
[color=blue]
> Ehrm? Quirks mode because of mistakes? I thought Quirks mode or Standard
> compliance mode had to do with the doctype declaration in the top of the
> document. Making mistakes is very much still possible, even if the
> doctype declaration is correct and puts a page in 'Standard'.[/color]

"Quirks mode" means that a browser emulates the bugs found in earlier
generations of browsers in order to properly render pages that were
designed by people who didn't known better and took advantage of those
bugs. It's a "legacy compatibility" mode, kind of necessitated by the fact
that the people who *write* web pages are, for the most part, distinct from
the people who *read* them, which means that it would be rather pointless
and counterproducti ve for a browser to just give up on a buggy page and
give the user an error message, because the user wouldn't (except in the
exceptional case that he were also a developer) be able to do anything
about it.

It all really comes down to "Postel's Law": "Be liberal in what you accept
and conservative in what you send out." A browser should try to properly
render a page that wasn't written according to the standards. An author
should try to create pages that *are* written according to the standards,
rather than relying on browsers to clean up after them.

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Re: Arghh - why is this SPAN placed elsewhere in NS7?

Quoth the raven named Barbara de Zoete:
[color=blue]
> Beauregard T. Shagnasty schreef:
>[color=green]
>> 0.7% met the W3C guidelines as validated pages.[/color]
>
> Ouch, this is much less than I expected. Makes me wonder, why bother
> about validation?[/color]

Wouldn't you like to be included in the Select Few? <g>

And I apologize for using the word quirks, rather than saying, more
accurately, that pages with mistakes cause browsers to guess at how to
render them.

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

[Christopher J. White]

Re: Arghh - why is this SPAN placed elsewhere in NS7?

>>>>> "barbara" == Barbara de Zoete <b_de_zoete@hot mail.com> writes:

someone> And if they don't have Verdana on their system, displaying at
someone> 85% gives them smaller text than they would like.

barbara> My pages have a 'liquid design', so one [Ctrl]+[+] or equivalent will
barbara> do. If they don't want to, they will just leave. I just hope my
barbara> content will invite them to hit [Ctrl]+[+].

From my experience, *very* few people even know that you can
adjust the font size, even folks that are significant web
users. It's one of those features that you will never know
exists unless someone points it out to you or you happen
to stumble on it looking for something else.

....cj

--
------------------------
-- Christopher J. White
--
-- chris @ (---)
-- grierwhite . com
------------------------

[Alan J. Flavell]

Re: Arghh - why is this SPAN placed elsewhere in NS7?

On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Christopher J. White wrote:
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>>>> "barbara" == Barbara de Zoete <b_de_zoete@hot mail.com> writes:[/color][/color]
>
> someone> And if they don't have Verdana on their system, displaying at
> someone> 85% gives them smaller text than they would like.
>
> barbara> My pages have a 'liquid design', so one [Ctrl]+[+] or equivalent will
> barbara> do. If they don't want to, they will just leave. I just hope my
> barbara> content will invite them to hit [Ctrl]+[+].
>
> From my experience, *very* few people even know that you can
> adjust the font size,[/color]

I've heard that said a lot. Sad, really. Bit like not being able to
find the TV volume control...
[color=blue]
> even folks that are significant web users.[/color]

If that's true, then surely the safest thing to do, as an author, is
not to interfere with the font size (at least of normal paragraph
text) at all? The vendor has surely researched their customer base
and decided on an installation default that's usable for the widest
practical range of their customers (haven't they?). The fact that the
text might be perceived as over-large by the average young web
designer with above-average visual acuity, viewing an above-average
display specification, is pretty-much irrelevant to that, no?

I hope we can at least credit the web designers with the ability
to adjust their own browsers. I'd rather they didn't try to outvote
me in the adjustment of mine!

[Bertilo Wennergren]

Re: Arghh - why is this SPAN placed elsewhere in NS7?

Alan J. Flavell:
[color=blue][color=green]
>>From my experience, *very* few people even know that you can
>>adjust the font size,[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> I've heard that said a lot. Sad, really. Bit like not being able to
> find the TV volume control...[/color]

Perhaps a comparison with a cinema is better. People don't expect to be
able to adjust the volume when they're in a cinema theater. So they
don't even look for a volume control there.

Similarily they don't expect to find a font size control in a web
browsers, because they probably compare it to reading a newspaper (that
most surely does not have a font size control).

--
Bertilo Wennergren <bertilow@gmx.n et> <http://www.bertilow.co m>

[Christoph Paeper]

Re: Arghh - why is this SPAN placed elsewhere in NS7?

*Bertilo Wennergren* <bertilow@gmx.n et>:[color=blue]
> Alan J. Flavell:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> From my experience, *very* few people even know that you can
>>> adjust the font size,[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
>> Bit like not being able to find the TV volume control...[/color]
>
> Perhaps a comparison with a cinema is better.[/color]

No. A PC is much closer to a TV set than a cinema, or were you writing that
posting with tens of people sitting next to you staring at the same screen?
[color=blue]
> Similarily they don't expect to find a font size control in a web
> browsers, because they probably compare it to reading a newspaper[/color]

In the better days every browser (with a GUI) had one or two text zoom
buttons shown by default. For some reason you have to enable it explicitely
in IE now. In Firebird I didn''t even find such a button to. I wonder what
makes "Go to Homepage" more important than text zoom---does anyone use
/that/ one at all?
Even Acrobat/Adobe Viewer has zoom functions, although the content it shows
comes much closer to the newspaper analogy than HTML pages.

--
"Try to learn something about everything and everything about something."
Thomas H. Huxley

[Bertilo Wennergren]

Re: Arghh - why is this SPAN placed elsewhere in NS7?

Christoph Paeper:
[color=blue]
> *Bertilo Wennergren* <bertilow@gmx.n et>:[/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
>>Alan J. Flavell:[/color][/color]
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>>>From my experience, *very* few people even know that you can
>>>>adjust the font size,[/color][/color][/color]
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>>Bit like not being able to find the TV volume control...[/color][/color][/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
>>Perhaps a comparison with a cinema is better.[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> No. A PC is much closer to a TV set than a cinema, or were you writing that
> posting with tens of people sitting next to you staring at the same screen?[/color]

I meant that a comparison with a cinema might shed some light on why
looking for a font-size control doesn't even enter many peoples minds.

In a cinema you don't look for a volume control, because no one expects
there to be any such thing. It doesn't even enter their minds that there
could be such a thing.

In the same way many users don't even consider the possibility of a
font-size control on a web page. They don't compare it to the volume
control of a TV. They don't compare a web page to a TV, and they don't
compare font size to volume.

They compare a web page to a page in a news paper, or to the page in a
book. Such things don't have any such controls.

People are long since accustomed to TV sets having volume controls. That
idea is established since the time radios became common. The TV
inherited those expectations.

Web browsers have not inherited any expectations to find font size
controls, since most people have never even heard of the idea of a font
size control, not in a web page, not in a book, not in a news paper, not
anywhere at all.
[color=blue][color=green]
>>Similarily they don't expect to find a font size control in a web
>>browsers, because they probably compare it to reading a newspaper[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> In the better days every browser (with a GUI) had one or two text zoom
> buttons shown by default.[/color]

I don't htink a visible button would help much. There are lots of funny
buttons all over the place. Most people just ignore them. (They would
ignore the mouse as well, if someone hadn't actually taught them what it
is and how to use it. And the keyboard...)

--
Bertilo Wennergren <bertilow@gmx.n et> <http://www.bertilow.co m>

[Jim Ley]

Re: Arghh - why is this SPAN placed elsewhere in NS7?

On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 15:40:43 +0000, "Alan J. Flavell"
<flavell@ph.gla .ac.uk> wrote:
[color=blue]
>I've heard that said a lot. Sad, really. Bit like not being able to
>find the TV volume control...[/color]

Considering how easy it is on IE - just lean on a button and try and
scroll the window, I think most people do, even when it scares them.

Jim.
--
comp.lang.javas cript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

[Brian]

Re: Arghh - why is this SPAN placed elsewhere in NS7?

Alan J. Flavell wrote:[color=blue]
> On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Christopher J. White wrote:
>[color=green]
>>From my experience, *very* few people even know that you can
>>adjust the font size,[/color]
>
> I've heard that said a lot. Sad, really. Bit like not being able to
> find the TV volume control...[/color]

In fairness to the alleged masses who don't know, the font size
control is often in a menu, with dozens of other options, and not
a dial (or buttons, more appropriately) on the visible browser chrome.
On televisions -- at least, on old telvisions -- the volume control
would be hard to miss.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[Mercury Mercurius]

Re: Arghh - why is this SPAN placed elsewhere in NS7?

Hello Beauregard,
Thank you for your recent assistance on the my inquiry to this group.
Could you please remove the materials from your web site at this time?
(http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagnasty/surrender.html) Since the
mock-up is quite similar to my current homepage, I would prefer that
it not remain online at your website's URL...
Thank you very much.

"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.nony.mous@ex ample.invalid> wrote in message news:<KfPzb.186 563$ZC4.15877@t wister.nyroc.rr .com>...[color=blue]
> Beauregard T. Shagnasty replied to hisself:
>[color=green]
> > http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagnasty/surrender.html[/color]
>
> Sorry, I forgot to snip out the invalid "border=0" on line 100.
>
> Notice I changed the DOCTYPE to 4.01 Strict. It validates other than
> the above. If you're writing new documents, you should use Strict.
>
> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht...surrender.html[/color]

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Re: Arghh - why is this SPAN placed elsewhere in NS7?

Quoth the raven named Mercury Mercurius:
[color=blue]
> Hello Beauregard,
> Thank you for your recent assistance on the my inquiry to this group.
> Could you please remove the materials from your web site at this time?
> (http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagnasty/surrender.html) Since the
> mock-up is quite similar to my current homepage, I would prefer that
> it not remain online at your website's URL...[/color]

Ok, it's gone. Actually, I had forgotten about it. I see your current
site, but it is done with tables for layout. Were you not able to make
the CSS divs work?

Unless I missed a post, I don't think you ever replied to the below...
[color=blue]
> Thank you very much.[/color]

You're welcome, and good luck with the site.
[color=blue]
>
> "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.nony.mous@ex ample.invalid> wrote in message news:<KfPzb.186 563$ZC4.15877@t wister.nyroc.rr .com>...
>[color=green]
>>Beauregard T. Shagnasty replied to hisself:
>>[color=darkred]
>>>http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagnasty/surrender.html[/color]
>>
>>Sorry, I forgot to snip out the invalid "border=0" on line 100.
>>
>>Notice I changed the DOCTYPE to 4.01 Strict. It validates other than
>>the above. If you're writing new documents, you should use Strict.
>>
>>http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht...surrender.html[/color][/color]

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.