Font sizes - Best practice... px vs. em

[Peter Foti]

Re: Font sizes - Best practice... px vs. em

"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.nony.nous@ex ample.invalid> wrote in message
news:UGIcb.7490 $oa4.3500@twist er.nyroc.rr.com ...[color=blue][color=green]
> > Also, what about the differences with font sizes in relation to the[/color][/color]
actual[color=blue][color=green]
> > font family? For example, Verdana looks larger than Times, so perhaps[/color]
>
> There are many many threads as to why Verdana is not a good idea.[/color]

Really? I haven't seen those. I typically use Arial, but have occasionally
used verdana. I'll have to look into that. :)
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > something that looks good in Verdana font with an em font size will look[/color][/color]
too[color=blue][color=green]
> > small when inherited by something with Times font. How are these issues
> > addressed in the real world... that's what I'm hoping to learn. :)[/color]
>
> Can you show why you would want to mix Verdana (or any sans-serif font)
> with a serif font? Times is generally ugly, imo. You could use Times in a
> *print* style sheet, though, or better yet, just specify serif.[/color]

I typically don't use Times, but I can imagine it being used in a newspaper
website, where perhaps news articles use Times, but the main site navigation
is a sans-serif font.

[Peter Foti]

Re: Font sizes - Best practice... px vs. em

"Brian" <usenet1@mangym utt.com.invalid-remove-this-part> wrote in message
news:EHPcb.4329 05$cF.137601@rw crnsc53...[color=blue]
> kchayka wrote:[color=green]
> > Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
> >[color=darkred]
> >>body { font-size: 100%; } /* <- not really necessary */[/color]
> >
> > But adding this rule can prevent WinIE from doing bizarre scaling with
> > View->Text Size changes. It doesn't hurt to include it.[/color]
>
> Except in NS 4.79/win2k, where that actually causes a larger font size
> to be displayed.[/color]

Ah yes... the evil NS 4! Who cares how web sites look in that browser. ;)
[color=blue]
>
> --
> Brian
> follow the directions in my address to email me
>[/color]

[Peter Foti]

Re: Font sizes - Best practice... px vs. em

"Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@ph.gla .ac.uk> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4 .53.03092522004 00.25781@ppepc5 6.ph.gla.ac.uk. ..[color=blue]
> On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Peter Foti wrote:
>[color=green]
> > then is it best to set a top level absolute font size?[/color]
>
> No. If the reader's default font size isn't the one that they want,
> that's their fault. If it _is_ the one that they want, how pleased
> will they be when you go and change it?[/color]

Honestly, I think most users probably don't even realize the amount of
control they have over this sort of thing and just judge a website by how it
is displayed in their browser. If it looks like crap because their
browser's default font size is too large (which is often the case IMO), then
they're going to think "this website sucks". Which is why it would be nice
to create a page where the author sets the default top level font, but the
user should still be able to change it if they need to.
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > For obvious reasons,[/color]
>
> bzzzt - next contestant please...
>[color=green]
> > I want my site to look the same (or very similar) whether the user is
> > browsing with IE, Mozilla, Opera,[/color]
>
> You don't seriously believe that the end users will display your page
> on all of those browsers and award points for similarity?[/color]

No, but at the same time I don't want to alienate any users by creating a
site that looks good in one browser and not in another.
[color=blue]
>
> If your customer mistakenly believes that, then you (as the expert in
> such matters) are tasked with making it clear to them why that is
> wrong.
>[color=green]
> > or any other UA.[/color]
>
> Such as Lynx, or a Brailler? A theatre projector, a hand-held
> display?[/color]

I neglected to mention that the site should be able to degrade nicely (but
need not look as similar) for obsolete browsers, or non-graphical UAs.
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > But if those browsers
> > have different default font size values, then something might come out
> > looking rediculously large or small on a different browser (especially[/color][/color]
if[color=blue][color=green]
> > you have any sort of nesting).[/color]
>
> You don't seriously believe that users have their default font size
> _soooo_ far away from reality? It's your job to make a design that
> copes with what they've got and what they need, based on the size
> choices they already made.[/color]

Like I said... I think most users don't actually make this choice, and the
browser defaults are often different.
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > Also, what about the differences with font sizes in relation to the[/color][/color]
actual[color=blue][color=green]
> > font family?[/color]
>
> The answer's the same as the last hundred times this has been played
> out on the groups.
>
>
>
> [superfluous quotage snipped.][/color]

[Eric Jarvis]

Re: Font sizes - Best practice... px vs. em

Peter Foti wrote:[color=blue]
> "Eric Jarvis" <web@ericjarvis .co.uk> wrote in message
> news:MPG.19dd5f 41e629068d98b84 b@News.CIS.DFN. DE...[color=green]
> > Peter Foti wrote:[color=darkred]
> > >
> > > For obvious reasons,
> > > I want my site to look the same (or very similar) whether the user is
> > > browsing with IE, Mozilla, Opera, or any other UA.
> > >[/color]
> >
> > no...the reason isn't obvious...pleas e explain[/color]
>
> Let me correct myself... I want the site to look the same (or very similar)
> whether the user is browsing with IE, Mozilla, Opera, or any other UA, but
> without taking away the user's ability to make the site use their own
> usability settings (for someone with a disability, for example). Also, it
> should degrade nicely (for obsolete UA versions, or text based UAs). But
> for the most part, I want the user's experience to be the same no matter
> which browser they use.
>[/color]

that doesn't answer the question...why do you want them to have the same
experience?

I make a browser choice to suit myself...mostly I'm in a hurry so I'm
using something quite cut down and I'm multitasking so I'm using a small
window...someti mes I'm browsing for the pleasure of it and I'll use all
the browser features and a maximised window

I don't even always want the same experience as myself, let alone the same
as anyone else...I know people who like a large display and plenty of
features as a default...I know others who choose their browser purely for
speed or for a small footprint...we' ve chosen our browsers because they
give the sort of browsing experience we want...why is it obvious that you
should want to override that?

--
eric

https://www.ericjarvis.co.uk

"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"

[Peter Foti]

Re: Font sizes - Best practice... px vs. em

"Eric Jarvis" <web@ericjarvis .co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.19de63 1548fa4c0098b85 f@News.CIS.DFN. DE...[color=blue]
> Peter Foti wrote:[color=green]
> > "Eric Jarvis" <web@ericjarvis .co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.19dd5f 41e629068d98b84 b@News.CIS.DFN. DE...[color=darkred]
> > > Peter Foti wrote:
> > > >
> > > > For obvious reasons,
> > > > I want my site to look the same (or very similar) whether the user[/color][/color][/color]
is[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > browsing with IE, Mozilla, Opera, or any other UA.
> > > >
> > >
> > > no...the reason isn't obvious...pleas e explain[/color]
> >
> > Let me correct myself... I want the site to look the same (or very[/color][/color]
similar)[color=blue][color=green]
> > whether the user is browsing with IE, Mozilla, Opera, or any other UA,[/color][/color]
but[color=blue][color=green]
> > without taking away the user's ability to make the site use their own
> > usability settings (for someone with a disability, for example). Also,[/color][/color]
it[color=blue][color=green]
> > should degrade nicely (for obsolete UA versions, or text based UAs).[/color][/color]
But[color=blue][color=green]
> > for the most part, I want the user's experience to be the same no matter
> > which browser they use.
> >[/color]
>
> that doesn't answer the question...why do you want them to have the same
> experience?
>
> I make a browser choice to suit myself...mostly I'm in a hurry so I'm
> using something quite cut down and I'm multitasking so I'm using a small
> window...someti mes I'm browsing for the pleasure of it and I'll use all
> the browser features and a maximised window
>
> I don't even always want the same experience as myself, let alone the same
> as anyone else...I know people who like a large display and plenty of
> features as a default...I know others who choose their browser purely for
> speed or for a small footprint...we' ve chosen our browsers because they
> give the sort of browsing experience we want...why is it obvious that you
> should want to override that?[/color]

I don't want to alienate any users by creating a site that looks good in one
browser and not in another. I'm not saying that I want to override the
settings of the end users. I'm saying, I want something consistent across
browsers. Once I have a consistent base, then the end user is free to twist
it to their preferences. I'm not trying to override them... I'm trying to
create a common starting point for all browsers.

[color=blue]
>
> --
> eric
> www.ericjarvis.co.uk
> "live fast, die only if strictly necessary"[/color]

[Brian]

Re: Font sizes - Best practice... px vs. em

Peter Foti wrote:[color=blue]
>
> I think most users probably don't even realize the amount of
> control they have over this sort of thing and just judge a website
> by how it is displayed in their browser.[/color]

I doubt that this really is the problem that people claim, and the
evidence often seems apocryphal. But if you think it is, then tell
users in a help document how they can change the font size.
[color=blue]
> If it looks like crap because their browser's default font size is
> too large (which is often the case IMO),[/color]

On your system? Or on theirs? If the latter, how do you know this?
[color=blue]
> then they're going to think "this website sucks".[/color]

People are on the web for information, not production values.
[color=blue]
> Which is why it would be nice to create a page where the author
> sets the default top level font[/color]

based on which resolution? In short, this cannot be done in any
reliable way.
[color=blue]
> I think most users don't actually make this choice, and the browser
> defaults are often different.[/color]

different <> ugly

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[Alan J. Flavell]

Re: Font sizes - Best practice... px vs. em

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003, Peter Foti wrote:
[color=blue]
> I don't want to alienate any users by creating a site that looks good in one
> browser and not in another.[/color]

Of course you don't - who ever suggested that you did?

What you have to accept is that a web page that looks good in one
viewing situation is going to look bad if you try to force it to be
the same in a very different situation. And then work from there.
Executive summary: flexible design.

[Eric Jarvis]

Re: Font sizes - Best practice... px vs. em

Peter Foti wrote:[color=blue]
> "Eric Jarvis" <web@ericjarvis .co.uk> wrote in message
> news:MPG.19de63 1548fa4c0098b85 f@News.CIS.DFN. DE...[color=green]
> > Peter Foti wrote:[color=darkred]
> > > "Eric Jarvis" <web@ericjarvis .co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:MPG.19dd5f 41e629068d98b84 b@News.CIS.DFN. DE...
> > > > Peter Foti wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > For obvious reasons,
> > > > > I want my site to look the same (or very similar) whether the user[/color][/color]
> is[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > > browsing with IE, Mozilla, Opera, or any other UA.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > no...the reason isn't obvious...pleas e explain
> > >
> > > Let me correct myself... I want the site to look the same (or very[/color][/color]
> similar)[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > whether the user is browsing with IE, Mozilla, Opera, or any other UA,[/color][/color]
> but[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > without taking away the user's ability to make the site use their own
> > > usability settings (for someone with a disability, for example). Also,[/color][/color]
> it[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > should degrade nicely (for obsolete UA versions, or text based UAs).[/color][/color]
> But[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > for the most part, I want the user's experience to be the same no matter
> > > which browser they use.
> > >[/color]
> >
> > that doesn't answer the question...why do you want them to have the same
> > experience?
> >
> > I make a browser choice to suit myself...mostly I'm in a hurry so I'm
> > using something quite cut down and I'm multitasking so I'm using a small
> > window...someti mes I'm browsing for the pleasure of it and I'll use all
> > the browser features and a maximised window
> >
> > I don't even always want the same experience as myself, let alone the same
> > as anyone else...I know people who like a large display and plenty of
> > features as a default...I know others who choose their browser purely for
> > speed or for a small footprint...we' ve chosen our browsers because they
> > give the sort of browsing experience we want...why is it obvious that you
> > should want to override that?[/color]
>
> I don't want to alienate any users by creating a site that looks good in one
> browser and not in another. I'm not saying that I want to override the
> settings of the end users. I'm saying, I want something consistent across
> browsers. Once I have a consistent base, then the end user is free to twist
> it to their preferences. I'm not trying to override them... I'm trying to
> create a common starting point for all browsers.
>[/color]

you still aren't dealing with the basic question...why do you want
consistency?... you start by saying you want the right thing, excellence in
as many situations as possible...then you make a completely unjustified
assumption that this requires consistency

you are wasting time and effort on an unachievable goal that isn't
actually part of your intended overall aim

--
eric

https://www.ericjarvis.co.uk

"Hey Lord don't ask me questions
There ain't no answer in me"

[Peter Foti]

Re: Font sizes - Best practice... px vs. em

"Eric Jarvis" <web@ericjarvis .co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.19de7d f11aa7d54d98b86 4@News.CIS.DFN. DE...[color=blue]
> Peter Foti wrote:[color=green]
> > "Eric Jarvis" <web@ericjarvis .co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.19de63 1548fa4c0098b85 f@News.CIS.DFN. DE...[color=darkred]
> > > Peter Foti wrote:
> > > > "Eric Jarvis" <web@ericjarvis .co.uk> wrote in message
> > > > news:MPG.19dd5f 41e629068d98b84 b@News.CIS.DFN. DE...
> > > > > Peter Foti wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For obvious reasons,
> > > > > > I want my site to look the same (or very similar) whether the[/color][/color][/color]
user[color=blue][color=green]
> > is[color=darkred]
> > > > > > browsing with IE, Mozilla, Opera, or any other UA.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > no...the reason isn't obvious...pleas e explain
> > > >
> > > > Let me correct myself... I want the site to look the same (or very[/color]
> > similar)[color=darkred]
> > > > whether the user is browsing with IE, Mozilla, Opera, or any other[/color][/color][/color]
UA,[color=blue][color=green]
> > but[color=darkred]
> > > > without taking away the user's ability to make the site use their[/color][/color][/color]
own[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > usability settings (for someone with a disability, for example).[/color][/color][/color]
Also,[color=blue][color=green]
> > it[color=darkred]
> > > > should degrade nicely (for obsolete UA versions, or text based UAs).[/color]
> > But[color=darkred]
> > > > for the most part, I want the user's experience to be the same no[/color][/color][/color]
matter[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > which browser they use.
> > > >
> > >
> > > that doesn't answer the question...why do you want them to have the[/color][/color][/color]
same[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > experience?
> > >
> > > I make a browser choice to suit myself...mostly I'm in a hurry so I'm
> > > using something quite cut down and I'm multitasking so I'm using a[/color][/color][/color]
small[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > window...someti mes I'm browsing for the pleasure of it and I'll use[/color][/color][/color]
all[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > the browser features and a maximised window
> > >
> > > I don't even always want the same experience as myself, let alone the[/color][/color][/color]
same[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > as anyone else...I know people who like a large display and plenty of
> > > features as a default...I know others who choose their browser purely[/color][/color][/color]
for[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > speed or for a small footprint...we' ve chosen our browsers because[/color][/color][/color]
they[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > give the sort of browsing experience we want...why is it obvious that[/color][/color][/color]
you[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > should want to override that?[/color]
> >
> > I don't want to alienate any users by creating a site that looks good in[/color][/color]
one[color=blue][color=green]
> > browser and not in another. I'm not saying that I want to override the
> > settings of the end users. I'm saying, I want something consistent[/color][/color]
across[color=blue][color=green]
> > browsers. Once I have a consistent base, then the end user is free to[/color][/color]
twist[color=blue][color=green]
> > it to their preferences. I'm not trying to override them... I'm trying[/color][/color]
to[color=blue][color=green]
> > create a common starting point for all browsers.
> >[/color]
>
> you still aren't dealing with the basic question...why do you want
> consistency?... you start by saying you want the right thing, excellence in
> as many situations as possible...then you make a completely unjustified
> assumption that this requires consistency[/color]

I want consistency because it makes it more likely that 2 average (default)
users will have the same experience when they visit the site (unless they
WANT to have a different experience, in which case they would change their
settings).
[color=blue]
>
> you are wasting time and effort on an unachievable goal that isn't
> actually part of your intended overall aim
>
> --
> eric
> www.ericjarvis.co.uk
> "Hey Lord don't ask me questions
> There ain't no answer in me"[/color]

[Barry Pearson]

Re: Font sizes - Best practice... px vs. em

Peter Foti wrote:
[snip][color=blue]
> No, but at the same time I don't want to alienate any users by
> creating a site that looks good in one browser and not in another.[/color]
[snip]

I note the lack of sympathy you are getting from Alan J Flavell and Eric
Jarvis. They are formidable opponents! But in a fairly narrow sense I am on
your side. I'll try to stay focussed.

When we produce web sites, there are all sorts of things that we have no
control over. I upload photograph pages, and someone looks at them on an
uncalibrated monitor and criticises the colour balance. We do our honest best
to have good style sheets, and someone using a company PC with NN4.7 on it
gets a weird view of what we've done. With the best will in the world, we
can't please everyone all the time, and many people may never be able to see
what we've done. We have to live with it.

But there is a very well known strategy to adopt, whenever we are being
buffetted by diversity that is bordering on near-anarchy:

"Control the controllables".

Some things ARE under our control. We can control them and hence reduce
complexity. If we failed to ensure that our site looked good with Opera 7.2
with (say) standard settings, how can we sort out a problem if a user is using
Opera 7.2 with non-standard settings? Is the problem with our site, or Opera
7.2, or the settings?

Consider the following page. I had lots of problems wondering why I was
getting different presentations of the H1 and H2 heading boxes. They were
intended to have the text exactly midway vertically. It was varying from one
browser to the next.

http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/portfolios/lrps.htm

I could have shrugged my shoulders and said "the web is like that, I've got to
accept it". But, first, it really mattered to me; and second, for all I know
the differences between different browsers will increase because of some other
factors. There may be all sorts of reasons why it will get changed / distorted
/ screwed-up later. But I want it to look right, by MY standards, when it
leaves me. So I identified that problem was different default top & bottom
margins in different browsers, and now set the margins of headers in the CSS.

If I resigned myself to the uncalibrated monitors, etc, of all the people who
may view my photographs, I might cease to care about what I put on the web
because it out of my control. But I process them to sRGB colour space on a
calibrated monitor, enabling a considerable degree of consistency among
willing participants. Then when a problem arises, I may rapidly be able to say
"the problem is at your end, not mine". And if they disagree - they can look
elsewhere! (There are 1000s more photograph sites they can look at. There are
millions more viewers I may be able to reach).

"Control the controllables".

--
Barry Pearson

http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/

http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/

http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/

[Barry Pearson]

Re: Font sizes - Best practice... px vs. em

Brian wrote:
[snip][color=blue]
> People are on the web for information, not production values.[/color]
[snip]

Some may be. Not all.

For example, photographers looking at the web sites of other photographers may
be primarily concerned with the quality of the photographs and the quality of
their presentation.

People are on the web for very many different reasons, with many different
implications for authoring.

--
Barry Pearson

http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/

http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/

http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/

[Alan J. Flavell]

Re: Font sizes - Best practice... px vs. em

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003, Peter Foti wrote:
[color=blue]
> Like I said... I think most users don't actually make this choice,[/color]

By not looking for the adjustments, they already did make a choice:
they consented to the size which their vendor set for them.

Just as if they'd switched on the TV and never looked for the volume
control.

[Brian]

Re: Font sizes - Best practice... px vs. em

Peter Foti wrote:[color=blue]
>
> I think most users probably don't even realize the amount of
> control they have over this sort of thing and just judge a website
> by how it is displayed in their browser.[/color]

I doubt that this really is the problem that people claim, and the
evidence often seems apocryphal. But if you think it is, then tell
users in a help document how they can change the font size.
[color=blue]
> If it looks like crap because their browser's default font size is
> too large (which is often the case IMO),[/color]

On your system? Or on theirs? If the latter, how do you know this?
[color=blue]
> then they're going to think "this website sucks".[/color]

People are on the web for information, not production values.
[color=blue]
> Which is why it would be nice to create a page where the author
> sets the default top level font[/color]

based on which resolution? In short, this cannot be done in any
reliable way.
[color=blue]
> I think most users don't actually make this choice, and the browser
> defaults are often different.[/color]

different <> ugly

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[Jim Ley]

Re: Font sizes - Best practice... px vs. em

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:22:46 -0400, "Peter Foti"
<peterf@systoli cnetworks.com> wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>> you still aren't dealing with the basic question...why do you want
>> consistency?... you start by saying you want the right thing, excellence in
>> as many situations as possible...then you make a completely unjustified
>> assumption that this requires consistency[/color]
>
>I want consistency because it makes it more likely that 2 average (default)
>users will have the same experience when they visit the site (unless they
>WANT to have a different experience, in which case they would change their
>settings).[/color]

Experience, is the interaction between the user and the site, it's not
the appearance, look at the big online brands, they have by
traditional brand ideas atrocious brand designs, yet their brands are
well known, and well understood. That's due to the interaction
experience not the look.

Two users of the same UA settings etc. will get an identical look, and
it will meet their interaction conventions on the good sites they're
used to. The user of a different UA will get a different look, but it
would mimic the interaction experience of the other sites they're used
to.

Jim.
--
comp.lang.javas cript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

[Peter Foti]

Re: Font sizes - Best practice... px vs. em

Barry,
Very well put.
-Peter