Font downloads

[Sam Hughes]

Re: Font downloads

Curious Angel <byte.this@usa. net> wrote in
news:MPG.1b82cd 30e1151f069896b 7@news.intergat e.com:
[color=blue]
> Security Schlamurity. This is Burger King and we ought at the BARE
> MINIMUM to have the option to force our creation to be displayed in
> the way we intended it. I think it's pathetic that the only option to
> retain one's original creation is by creating it as a bloated PDF.[/color]

Force? Force?

force?




force?



You want to force such-and-such?


The Web is not about having a file format in which information is
rendered as the author desires.


--
In a room with thirty-seven people, never have everybody shake each
other's hand.

[jake]

Re: Font downloads

In message <MPG.1b82cd30e1 151f069896b7@ne ws.intergate.co m>, Curious
Angel <byte.this@usa. net> writes[color=blue]
>In article <2np8giF34ob6U1 @uni-berlin.de>, info@outer-court.com says...[color=green]
>> Why is there no standardized and well-working way for a web-page to
>> offer the font for download/embed it, in order to be displayed on the
>> page?
>> No matter what you think of the preferred font of a designer, many
>> web-sites offer an image of the text instead to "force" this font --
>> which certainly can't be the solution (it's a bit of a hassle to
>> maintain and create).
>>[/color]
>
>Philipp . . . I'll GLADLY come to your rescue here and agree with you
>10000000000% !
>Yes yes YES there should be a way of forcing one's page to view, using
>the fonts the
>designer/author originally intended.
>
>Did the viewer design the page? No. The author did; and for better or
>worse it is
>HIS creation, HIS fashion disaster, HIS intelligible gibberish, HIS concept!
>
>OMG I can't believe how cold some of you people are! Have you no
>compassion for the
>author of the page? Philipp is so completely right that there ought to be no
>discussion on it! Here some poor soul spends a month designing his
>unique web page,
>using the fonts that he intended, only to have it slapped down. You
>might as well
>say that you prefer a DOS environment to Windows!
>
>(you can tell I have passionate views about this LOL)
>
>Security Schlamurity. This is Burger King and we ought at the BARE
>MINIMUM to have
>the option to force our creation to be displayed in the way we intended
>it. I think
>it's pathetic that the only option to retain one's original creation is
>by creating
>it as a bloated PDF.
>
>Angel[/color]

But all is not lost ....... if your audience uses Internet Explorer --
and that's what? 85%? 90%? ?95%? of your potential audience.

Using Microsoft's font downloading technology you can make sure that the
vast majority of your viewers gets to see your site as you intended it
to be seen.

Non-IE viewers get to see it in whatever other font you suggest -- or
their own preferred font.

Forget PDFs -- think font embedding.

regards.
--
Jake

[jake]

Re: Font downloads

In message <2nsa1sF43n6jU3 @uni-berlin.de>, Philipp Lenssen
<info@outer-court.com> writes[color=blue]
>Sam Hughes wrote:
>[color=green]
>> "Philipp Lenssen" <info@outer-court.com> wrote in news:2np8giF34o b6U1
>> @uni-berlin.de:
>>[/color]
>[color=green]
>>[color=darkred]
>> > No matter what you think of the preferred font of a designer, many
>> > web-sites offer an image of the text instead to "force" this font --
>> > which certainly can't be the solution (it's a bit of a hassle to
>> > maintain and create).[/color]
>>
>> Additionally, an image's text cannot be selected or searched, and a
>> number of other bad things (good luck getting indexed, good luck with
>> bandwidth fees).
>>
>> The trick is to stop wanting this. Users don't care what font the
>> page is in, as long as it is legible, so font embedding even if
>> possible would not be worth it. It is generally only wanted by
>> people who don't notice that the Web is not a print medium.[/color]
>
>What makes you think readers don't care about the font?
>And why do you think this is about *me* needing to stop want this? I
>don't want this, it is the *designer's* choice. I'm the one
>*implementin g* this in the best possible way.
>[/color]

It's *your* site; *you* decide how your audience sees it.

regards.

--
Jake

[Alan J. Flavell]

Re: Font downloads

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Sam Hughes wrote:
[color=blue]
> The Web is not about having a file format in which information is
> rendered as the author desires.[/color]

If the author desires that the content should be rendered as best
suits the reader, then I'm entirely happy with that.

[Alan J. Flavell]

Re: Font downloads

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, jake wrote:
[color=blue]
> It's *your* site;[/color]

It's the reader's browser. It's google's indexing service.
[color=blue]
> *you* decide how your audience sees it.[/color]

*you* decide whether your audience can be bothered.
[color=blue]
> regards.[/color]

Indeed.

[Sam Hughes]

Re: Font downloads

"Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@ph.gla .ac.uk> wrote in
news:Pine.LNX.4 .61.04081022520 30.18072@ppepc5 6.ph.gla.ac.uk:
[color=blue]
> On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Sam Hughes wrote:
>[color=green]
>> The Web is not about having a file format in which information is
>> rendered as the author desires.[/color]
>
> If the author desires that the content should be rendered as best
> suits the reader, then I'm entirely happy with that.[/color]

I disagree! If the author desires that, then it should be rendered with
five-pixel-high small caps text with color schemes such as red on brown,
yellow on red, and green on blue. ;-)

You know, I've always wondered if informational and structural markup would
be more popular if rendering engines randomized their behavior for every
document. Or just set it at random at installation.

--
Anqdc>

[Curious Angel]

Re: Font downloads

In article <JvsEXdHHFUGBFw sC@gododdin.dem on.co.uk>, jake@gododdin.d emon.co.uk says...[color=blue]
> But all is not lost ....... if your audience uses Internet Explorer --
> and that's what? 85%? 90%? ?95%? of your potential audience.
>
> Using Microsoft's font downloading technology you can make sure that the
> vast majority of your viewers gets to see your site as you intended it
> to be seen.
>
> Non-IE viewers get to see it in whatever other font you suggest -- or
> their own preferred font.
>
> Forget PDFs -- think font embedding.
>
> regards.
> --
> Jake[/color]

Well I'm unclear what that is Jake, but if it allows me to present my page in the
style I originally designed it in (well, its fonts, at any rate) . . . I'm all for
it!!

I will defend the rights of the author of the web page to control its appearance
every time! Acrobat is B.L.O.A.T.W.A.R .E in the extreme. Prettyware, certainly.
But bloatware. Your resources shouldn't have to be sucked dry just to display a
lousy font tsk.

Now I don't have a problem with HTML staying as "lean-n-mean" as it is currently
(after all, DOS has some unique advantages) but what I would hope for would be
something almost as lean as HTML . . . that permits fonts. That's all.

And to everybody who says "I control your page, not you" . . . phhhhllltttttt! ! You
take what I give you honey, and don't you EVER forget it! (well, someone had to say
it tsk) Visit another site if the appearance of mine so offends your delicate
instincts. I've certainly exercised that right. There are some websites that
contain dominant color combinations which just give me a headache -- but I would
defend to the death its author's right to create it that way.

Angel

[Shawn K. Quinn]

Re: Font downloads

Philipp Lenssen wrote:
[color=blue]
> Why is there no standardized and well-working way for a web-page to
> offer the font for download/embed it, in order to be displayed on the
> page?[/color]

It has a lot to do with the font designers being able to assert copyright
over font data. Which is silly, as copyright now lasts for an obscenely
long time.
[color=blue]
> No matter what you think of the preferred font of a designer, many
> web-sites offer an image of the text instead to "force" this font --
> which certainly can't be the solution (it's a bit of a hassle to
> maintain and create).[/color]

Right, and there should be a way for the user to override this in favor of a
font he/she can actually read, in some cases. Verdana is perhaps the worst
offender, especially when a stylesheet is "enhanced" for it and it's
unavailable on the user's system.

--
Shawn K. Quinn

[Shawn K. Quinn]

Re: Font downloads

Curious Angel wrote:
[color=blue]
> Philipp . . . I'll GLADLY come to your rescue here and agree with you
> 10000000000%! Yes yes YES there should be a way of forcing one's page to
> view, using the fonts the designer/author originally intended.[/color]

Not on my computer.
[color=blue]
> Did the viewer design the page? No. The author did; and for better or
> worse it is HIS creation, HIS fashion disaster, HIS intelligible
> gibberish, HIS concept![/color]

And it's my computer, too. I would actually like to be able to *read* the
page, and if there's some god-awful font that looks like crap on my system
were it to be installed, I would not be able to.
[color=blue]
> OMG I can't believe how cold some of you people are! Have you no
> compassion for the author of the page?[/color]

Yes, we do. However, the author of an HTML document and the designer of its
style sheet may well be two very different people.
[color=blue]
> Philipp is so completely right that there ought to be no discussion on it!
> Here some poor soul spends a month designing his unique web page, using
> the fonts that he intended, only to have it slapped down.[/color]

The CSS properties which suggest fonts are not commands that must be obeyed
at all costs, and this is a *feature* of Web technology. Not a limitation,
a *feature*.

If you want "looks the same, every time", use Postscript, PDF, or some
similar format.
[color=blue]
> You might as well say that you prefer a DOS environment to Windows![/color]

I've said several times that MS-DOS 6.22 was the last great product
Microsoft made and that it was more or less downhill from there.
[color=blue]
> I think it's pathetic that the only option to retain one's original
> creation is by creating it as a bloated PDF.[/color]

I think it's pathetic that people want to completely destroy one of the
great advantages of HTML and CSS.

--
Shawn K. Quinn

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

Force! (was Re: Font downloads

Sam Hughes <hughes@rpi.edu > wrote:
[color=blue]
> Curious Angel <byte.this@usa. net> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Security Schlamurity. This is Burger King and we ought at the BARE
>> MINIMUM to have the option to force our creation to be displayed[/color]
>
> Force? Force?[/color]

Alas, in all current browsers I've tested, "SUBMIT" buttons
don't work as one might hope. Even if I wrap them inside of
deprecated <blink> tags, they won't hypnotize site visitors
or force them to bow before my will and use my desired fonts.

I'm still USE VERDANA! testing with OBEY NOW! subliminal texts
and animated spiral images, but so far without any success...

--[color=blue]
>;K[/color]

[Shawn K. Quinn]

Re: Font downloads

Curious Angel wrote:
[color=blue]
> And to everybody who says "I control your page, not you" . . .
> phhhhllltttttt! !  You take what I give you honey, and don't you EVER
> forget it![/color]

My browser's back button has yet to wear out. Don't you ever forget *that*.

--
Shawn K. Quinn

[Brian]

Re: Font downloads

jake wrote:
[color=blue]
> It's *your* site; *you* decide how your audience sees it.[/color]

Not on the www, I'm afraid. The user has final veto.

--
Brian (remove ".invalid" to email me)

http://www.tsmchughs.com/

[Brian]

Re: Font downloads

Curious Angel wrote:
[color=blue]
> You take what I give you honey,[/color]

Not so much. Even here, noone has to take what you dish out. That's
what filters are for.
[color=blue]
> Visit another site if the appearance of mine so offends your
> delicate instincts.[/color]

Oh, they will, they will. Don't you worry about that.
[color=blue]
> There are some websites that contain dominant color combinations
> which just give me a headache -- but I would defend to the death
> its author's right to create it that way.[/color]

No argument from me. But see, I'd also point out the user still has
final say in how it ultimately gets presented. And this has nothing to
do with rights or wrongs. It's simply how it is. Whining won't change
it. You can learn to live with it, or keep babbling about how you want
to force things to be *your* way.

--
Brian (remove ".invalid" to email me)

http://www.tsmchughs.com/

[Lachlan Hunt]

Re: Font downloads

Curious Angel wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>>Using Microsoft's font downloading technology you can make sure that the
>>vast majority of your viewers gets to see your site as you intended it
>>to be seen.[/color][/color]

That sounds like a proprietary technology to me, I wouldn't use it at
all. If, and when CSS3 Web Fonts becomes a recommendation, and is
supported you may be able to use @font-face with the 'src' property
[1], but until then, there is no standardised method of doing this that
is supported by any UA.
[color=blue]
> I will defend the rights of the author of the web page to control its appearance
> every time![/color]

You have the right to remain stubborn and you have the right to suggest
appearance. However, Anything you suggest, can and will be disabled by
some users whether you like it or not. You do not have the right to
force a user to unwillingly use your suggested appearance.
[color=blue]
> And to everybody who says "I control your page, not you"[/color]

You control the content, structure, and default presentation of your
page. Once a user has retrieved your document, the user is free to
modify the presentation in any way. If a user is really keen, then they
also have the right to pass your page through some kind of process, such
as XSLT to convert it into any form they desire. The only thing a user
cannot do with your page is republish or distribute it in any way
without your consent, because that may breach copyright laws.
[color=blue]
> You take what I give you honey, and don't you EVER forget it! (well, someone had to say
> it tsk)[/color]

If your presentation is nice, then most people will accept it. However,
there will always be some users who do not like your presentation, and
like to change it in some way, and they have the right to do so! There
is nothing you can do to prevent that, it's only possible make it more
difficult and frustrating for the user, which *must not* be done!
[color=blue]
> Visit another site if the appearance of mine so offends your delicate
> instincts. I've certainly exercised that right.[/color]

If you had content I was interested in, then, if needed, I would
override your style sheet anyway I like, so that I could read it. You
are making the site for the users, not just for yourself to read, so the
users need to be kept happy.

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-webfonts/#referencing
--
Lachlan Hunt

http://www.lachy.id.au/

Please direct all spam to abuse@127.0.0.1
Thank you.

[Neal]

Re: Font downloads

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:10:43 -0500, Shawn K. Quinn
<skquinn@xeviou s.kicks-ass.net> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Philipp Lenssen wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Why is there no standardized and well-working way for a web-page to
>> offer the font for download/embed it, in order to be displayed on the
>> page?[/color]
>
> It has a lot to do with the font designers being able to assert copyright
> over font data. Which is silly, as copyright now lasts for an obscenely
> long time.
>[/color]

And in the name of goddamn Sonny Bono too... !*&^*&%#