Cyrillic

[Andreas Prilop]

Re: Cyrillic

On 11 Jun 2004, Philipp Lenssen wrote:
[color=blue]
> If I give the impression I find the character encoding and font issues
> to complicated, than that's true. I wonder just why is it so
> complicated and if no one ever tried to fix the situation.[/color]

You may want to read <http://www.dodabo.de/charset/> in German.
[color=blue]
> Have you ever seen a complex Flash site, and all the work that goes to
> it? There is simply not enough money for most companies to invest in
> additional time to implement a graceful fallback for 5% of users.[/color]

Have you ever tried to use such an argument in the United States?
You might as well write onto your pages "Niggers keep off!" :-(

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[Philipp Lenssen]

Re: Cyrillic

Andreas Prilop wrote:
[color=blue]
> On 11 Jun 2004, Philipp Lenssen wrote:
>[color=green]
> > If I give the impression I find the character encoding and font
> > issues to complicated, than that's true. I wonder just why is it so
> > complicated and if no one ever tried to fix the situation.[/color]
>
> You may want to read <http://www.dodabo.de/charset/> in German.
>[color=green]
> > Have you ever seen a complex Flash site, and all the work that goes
> > to it? There is simply not enough money for most companies to
> > invest in additional time to implement a graceful fallback for 5%
> > of users.[/color]
>
> Have you ever tried to use such an argument in the United States?
> You might as well write onto your pages "Niggers keep off!" :-([/color]

I find that comparison a little drastic. It's everyone's right to serve
or not serve users without Flash. We are not talking about a government
web site, but a private web site. On my web site I have an application
which works in SVG only and there is not even a fallback. So now you
are calling me to be along the same lines of a racist? Sorry, but get
real, and please see the world as more than black and white.

--
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[Neal]

Re: Cyrillic

On 11 Jun 2004 09:09:23 GMT, Philipp Lenssen <info@outer-court.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Alan J. Flavell wrote:
>[color=green]
>> On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, Philipp Lenssen wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>> > Have you ever seen a complex Flash site, and all the work that goes
>> > to it? There is simply not enough money for most companies to
>> > invest in additional time to implement a graceful fallback for 5%
>> > of users.[/color]
>>
>> As in "we've spent a considerable amount of effort and money to make
>> our site inaccessible - how dare you ask us to even think about
>> correcting that fault", hmmm?
>>[/color]
>
> Flash is not inaccessible to the majority of users.[/color]

It is slow, cranky, and requires good vision. So unless the majority of
users have relatively new machines, cable connections and 20/20 vision,
you're quite mistaken.

Let's just add that one of the users who will find your site inaccessible
is Google.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>> > The fallback is naturally always there[/color]
>>
>> "Naturally" ?[/color]
>
> Naturally if you have someone in the team who knows about
> accessibility. OK, it would also be easy to forget to include the basic
> facts as plain HTML text.[/color]

If that's so easy to forget, I'd argue the team has as much business
putting up a website as a team who can't add or subtract has doing the
books.

[Andy Dingley]

Re: Cyrillic

Neal <neal413@yahoo. com> wrote in message news:<opr89vknv o6v6656@news.in dividual.net>.. .[color=blue]
> On 8 Jun 2004 10:11:44 GMT, Philipp Lenssen <info@outer-court.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
> > But what if our customer's corporate design guidelines make Arial
> > necessary?[/color]
>
> Then perhaps company policy is out of step with the technical realities of
> the media?[/color]

Isn't that the normal state of affairs ?


Every web-spod should have to go and work for a paper-based publishing
company at some time (but not for too long, or you go crazy). It's an
eye-opening experience. But then you could say the same for Alex's
experiences in A Clockwork Orange.

[Philipp Lenssen]

Re: Cyrillic

Neal <neal413@yahoo. com> wrote in message news:<opr9fmzzx 66v6656@news.in dividual.net>.. .[color=blue]
> On 11 Jun 2004 09:09:23 GMT, Philipp Lenssen <info@outer-court.com> wrote:
>[/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
> >
> > Flash is not inaccessible to the majority of users.[/color]
>
> It is slow, cranky, and requires good vision. So unless the majority of
> users have relatively new machines, cable connections and 20/20 vision,
> you're quite mistaken.[/color]

Flash can be quite fast. If you are talking about badly written Flash,
well, that might be slow -- just as badly written HTML tends to be
slow. I can also show you great misuses of HTML and CSS which are very
inaccessible.
[color=blue]
>
> Let's just add that one of the users who will find your site inaccessible
> is Google.[/color]

Actually, Google indexes the text content of Flash files.

I'm not a big Flash fan for reasons of accessibility/ usability and
would not put Flash on any critical part of my site, but you know,
there are companies who like to use it. And if you would tell your
customer who demands flashy animations that Flash is slow, cranky, and
requires good vision, he will probably laugh at you because he knows a
bit about Flash too. You are of course right to point out the problems
with Flash, but if the customer still wants it...

[Shawn K. Quinn]

Re: Cyrillic

Philipp Lenssen wrote:
[color=blue]
> I'm not a big Flash fan for reasons of accessibility/ usability and
> would not put Flash on any critical part of my site, but you know,
> there are companies who like to use it.[/color]

I have no problem with companies using Flash, as long as there is a
non-Flash alternative (there is no Flash plug-in native to my OS).
[color=blue]
> And if you would tell your customer who demands flashy animations that
> Flash is slow, cranky, and requires good vision, he will probably laugh at
> you because he knows a bit about Flash too. You are of course right to
> point out the problems with Flash, but if the customer still wants it...[/color]

In my case, I would tell them that Flash movies are outside my realm of
knowledge, and warn them as well that a Flash movie is a Flash movie, not a
Web site.

--
Shawn K. Quinn