Rant: Microsoft madness

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  • Ben C

    #31
    Re: Rant: Microsoft madness

    On 2008-05-08, DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote:
    DuncanIdaho wrote:
    >
    snip
    >
    >>
    >What a nightmare.
    >
    snip
    >
    Hello
    >
    I realise this thread has probably run it's course but I thought it
    would be good to make one final comment
    [...]
    It always amazes me how people defend the indefensible, not just in
    software engineering but in many walks of life. If I released such
    rubbish I would be sacked, in fact I have a certain pride in my work
    that will not allow me to release bug infested software, even if it
    means I have to stay behind and work in my own time.
    >
    I guess the fact that this browser is packaged with the 'operating
    system' that ships with most new PCs these days means Microsoft don't
    really have to try, why should they care when people have no choice.
    >
    For years I have kept out of the 'Microsoft is rubbish' arguments
    because I don't really use Microsoft software unless there is no
    alternative, consequently I don't feel in a position to comment.
    Well I'm afraid to say that in the case of IE 7, if any one asks me I
    will recommend anything BUT Internet Explorer, when they ask me why I
    will say 'because it's rubbish' and I will feel I have plenty of data to
    back up my assertion.
    You're right, it is rubbish, and significantly more rubbish than any of
    their other stuff (much of which is reasonably good if you like that
    sort of thing, which I don't).

    I was also quite taken aback by it when I knew enough about these things
    to realize just how bad it is.

    Recent article by Lie in The Register:


    "Microsoft' s IE is bug-ridden and the company, despite its vast
    resources, has shown little interest in fixing problems that cost
    web designers time and sleep. IE dominates the web due to its being
    bundled with Windows. This forces web designers to prioritize coding
    for IE. Coding for standards-compliant browsers becomes a secondary
    consideration.

    "Microsoft is keenly aware of this and therefore has little interest
    in improving their support for standards. They will never become
    standards compliant unless forced by someone in a position to demand
    a change, something that users and customers are not. Requiring
    standard compliance would greatly lessen Microsoft's monopolistic
    stranglehold in the web browser market, would delight web developers
    everywhere and would, ironically, make IE a better product."

    Comment

    • Andy Dingley

      #32
      Re: Rant: Microsoft madness

      On 8 May, 04:08, "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4...@centra l.netwrote:
      Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
      Steve Swift wrote:
      >
      I'd never bothered closing TR and TD elements until I got this odd
      space; I'd never encountered a browser that cared, ...
      >
      Never used Netscape 4?
      >
      Ah the memories...miss on </trand poof no table! Let's you know in an
      instant that you've made a mistake!
      So it's not a bug, it's a feature?

      Comment

      • GTalbot

        #33
        Re: Rant: Microsoft madness

        On 8 mai, 08:39, DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho2. ..@googlemail.c omwrote:
        DuncanIdaho wrote:
        [snipped]
        I have spent the best part of 10 working days getting it to look the
        same in my chosen browsers. It's important that it looks the same in all
        browsers
        Duncan,

        Several people and experts in web design will tell you (and have told
        you in this thread) that trying to achieve perfect-pixel design in all
        browsers is a mistake, a grave error in judgment. I am telling you
        that too. Target fluid, scalable webpage design is the way to go.


        so we can conduct training sessions without having to have
        three sets of slides. I would say at least half this time has been spent
        reworking things that work fine in Opera and Firefox (for whatever
        reason) just to get them to work in IE 7. So there we have it, 50% of
        the effort has been expended just because Microsoft released a complete
        pile of crap. Fantastic, can I bill them for wasted time do you think ?
        >
        I have taken on board everything that has been said in this thread,

        Really?

        I
        have learned a lot about how things should work and how they actually
        work in IE 7. I still have a lot to learn.
        >
        One respondent suggested that if I actually took the time to learn
        HTML/XHTML whatever then I would not have so many problems, others seem
        to refute this by virtue of the fact that there are hundreds of bugs
        outstanding in IE 7, percentages of test suite failures have been
        mentioned as well that should convince anyone that IE 7 is a poor piece
        of software.
        That's not what I remember from the whole thread. Learn good web
        design techniques first by reading recommendable tutorials, articles,
        columns... not by visiting w3schools.com, not by visiting
        dynamicdrive, not by using Front-Page, etc.

        I have provided you with such suggestions, recommendations .

        Then, yes, eventually, you'll occasionally reach problems and
        limitations in IE 7, then you will, yes, stumble on real bugs in IE 7,
        incorrect implementations , partial implementations , buggy stuff in IE
        7. We know there are bugs in IE 7... but we also know there are lots
        of amateur web designers out there using Front-Page, Yahoo geocities,
        and other poor, weak, buggy, Krusty-The-Clown softwares... web
        designers who never heard of standards compliant rendering mode,
        doctype declaration, strict DTD, etc.

        It always amazes me how people defend the indefensible, not just in
        software engineering but in many walks of life. If I released such
        rubbish I would be sacked, in fact I have a certain pride in my work
        that will not allow me to release bug infested software, even if it
        means I have to stay behind and work in my own time.

        We
        Never
        Saw
        Any
        Webpage [sample]
        From
        You.
        Not even a sample or reduced example of your webpage causing you
        headaches, problems in IE 7. All we saw is a very few and very small
        chunks of code and we have provided corrective proposals.

        Gérard

        Comment

        • DuncanIdaho

          #34
          Re: Rant: Microsoft madness

          GTalbot wrote:
          On 8 mai, 08:39, DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho2. ..@googlemail.c omwrote:
          >DuncanIdaho wrote:
          >
          [snipped]
          >
          >I have spent the best part of 10 working days getting it to look the
          >same in my chosen browsers. It's important that it looks the same in all
          >browsers
          >
          Duncan,
          >
          Several people and experts in web design will tell you (and have told
          you in this thread) that trying to achieve perfect-pixel design in all
          browsers is a mistake, a grave error in judgment. I am telling you
          that too. Target fluid, scalable webpage design is the way to go.
          snip
          >
          We
          Never
          Saw
          Any
          Webpage [sample]
          From
          You.
          Not even a sample or reduced example of your webpage causing you
          headaches, problems in IE 7. All we saw is a very few and very small
          chunks of code and we have provided corrective proposals.
          Jeez man you do go on don't you.

          I don't wish to be rude as you have provided some good advice but I have
          explained at least twice in this thread that I am unable to post URLs as
          I am working in a restricted environment. Short of paying for a server
          out of my own pocket I am stuck with this situation for the time being.
          Posting entire (fragments) of pages is also frowned upon here according
          to my reading of past postings. Given that I am unable to post URLs and
          don't wish to offend anyone by posting (possibly incomplete) web pages
          verbatim and given that I never explicitly asked for help I don't really
          understand why this is such an issue for you ...

          I was going to explain why posting URLs to public newsgroups is a bad
          idea anyway but now I have to get on with this bloody web site :-))

          OH BTW, my manager came to see me this morning to say how fantastic the
          site is looking and thanking me for all my hard work. He was amazed and
          pleased that I had managed to get the thing looking and working the same
          in all our recommended browsers ...

          Now shall I get a Merc or a Beemer with my bonus this month :-))


          Idaho

          Comment

          • dorayme

            #35
            Re: Rant: Microsoft madness

            In article <MrGdnYbNTKb2nr nVRVnyiQA@bt.co m>,
            DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote:
            Short of paying for a server
            out of my own pocket I am stuck with this situation for the time being.
            There is no need to pay for one. There are some good free ones without
            ads. Please send me $US5 and I will give you a URL of a beauty.
            Posting entire (fragments) of pages is also frowned upon here according
            to my reading of past postings.
            This is nonsense. The fact is that, with one or two exceptions, no one
            worth listening to would condemn anyone for posting a relevant fragment.
            It is when the fragment is not relevant or truly representative of the
            problem that the objections reasonably appear.
            I was going to explain why posting URLs to public newsgroups is a bad
            idea anyway but now I have to get on with this bloody web site :-))
            >
            You will stop getting on with your work and you will damn well hang
            around here and amuse us. Is that clear?
            OH BTW, my manager came to see me this morning to say how fantastic the
            site is looking and thanking me for all my hard work. He was amazed and
            pleased that I had managed to get the thing looking and working the same
            in all our recommended browsers ...
            >
            Now shall I get a Merc or a Beemer with my bonus this month :-))
            Just hold it right there! You will request a Merc Bus with all mod cons
            so that we all can trip around Europe and have some fun. The HTML/CSS
            bus. Seating arrangements to be decided later. JK, rf and I, naturally
            will sit together, drinkin' and fightin' and singin'... named
            individuals and disgraceful cowards all behaving badly and without
            inhibition...

            --
            dorayme

            Comment

            • rf

              #36
              Re: Rant: Microsoft madness

              DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote in
              news:MrGdnYbNTK b2nrnVRVnyiQA@b t.com:
              Now shall I get a Merc or a Beemer with my bonus this month :-))
              Buy some free web space.

              Googling for "free web space" will tell you where to get it.

              --
              Richard
              Killing all google groups posts
              The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org

              Comment

              • DuncanIdaho

                #37
                Re: Rant: Microsoft madness

                dorayme wrote:
                In article <MrGdnYbNTKb2nr nVRVnyiQA@bt.co m>,
                DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote:
                >
                >Short of paying for a server
                >out of my own pocket I am stuck with this situation for the time being.
                >
                There is no need to pay for one. There are some good free ones without
                ads. Please send me $US5 and I will give you a URL of a beauty.
                Only 5 bucks, bargain, post your postal address here and I'll send you a
                nice surprise. Do they support transactional MySQL databases for free as
                well, how about Java and Tomcat, my own private JVM, root access to the
                servers so I can start them on port 80 etc, Linux (a real OS etc).
                Fantastic, $US5, bargain .
                >Posting entire (fragments) of pages is also frowned upon here according
                >to my reading of past postings.
                >
                This is nonsense.
                Whatever
                >I was going to explain why posting URLs to public newsgroups is a bad
                >idea anyway but now I have to get on with this bloody web site :-))
                >>
                You will stop getting on with your work and you will damn well hang
                around here and amuse us. Is that clear?
                Glad to be of service, I mean this group can be soooooooo serious
                sometimes don't you think.
                >OH BTW, my manager came to see me this morning to say how fantastic the
                >site is looking and thanking me for all my hard work. He was amazed and
                >pleased that I had managed to get the thing looking and working the same
                >in all our recommended browsers ...
                >>
                >Now shall I get a Merc or a Beemer with my bonus this month :-))
                >
                Just hold it right there! You will request a Merc Bus with all mod cons
                so that we all can trip around Europe and have some fun.
                Europe isn't any fun anymore, too many bloody Americans all over the
                place, besides Americans can't hold their beer like us Europeans.

                Have a nice day

                Idaho

                Comment

                • DuncanIdaho

                  #38
                  Re: Rant: Microsoft madness

                  rf wrote:
                  DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote in
                  news:MrGdnYbNTK b2nrnVRVnyiQA@b t.com:
                  >
                  >Now shall I get a Merc or a Beemer with my bonus this month :-))
                  >
                  Buy some free web space.
                  >
                  Googling for "free web space" will tell you where to get it.
                  >
                  Why do I have to buy it if it's free ?

                  Idaho

                  Comment

                  • dorayme

                    #39
                    Re: Rant: Microsoft madness

                    In article <brednV9tr7Vjk7 nVRVnyiAA@bt.co m>,
                    DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote:
                    dorayme wrote:
                    In article <MrGdnYbNTKb2nr nVRVnyiQA@bt.co m>,
                    DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote:
                    Short of paying for a server
                    out of my own pocket I am stuck with this situation for the time being.
                    There is no need to pay for one. There are some good free ones without
                    ads.
                    Do they support transactional MySQL databases for free as
                    well, how about Java and Tomcat, my own private JVM, root access to the
                    servers so I can start them on port 80 etc, Linux (a real OS etc).

                    There is an offer for a free service here and you are upping your
                    requirements already? I am going to be generous here and tell you about
                    one: 890m.com; it is certainly adequate to post things for problems with
                    CSS, which is what this group here is about. So check it out.

                    --
                    dorayme

                    Comment

                    • DuncanIdaho

                      #40
                      Re: Rant: Microsoft madness

                      dorayme wrote:
                      In article <brednV9tr7Vjk7 nVRVnyiAA@bt.co m>,
                      DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote:
                      >
                      >dorayme wrote:
                      >>In article <MrGdnYbNTKb2nr nVRVnyiQA@bt.co m>,
                      >> DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote:
                      >>>
                      >>>Short of paying for a server
                      >>>out of my own pocket I am stuck with this situation for the time being.
                      >>There is no need to pay for one. There are some good free ones without
                      >>ads.
                      >
                      >Do they support transactional MySQL databases for free as
                      >well, how about Java and Tomcat, my own private JVM, root access to the
                      >servers so I can start them on port 80 etc, Linux (a real OS etc).
                      >
                      >
                      There is an offer for a free service here and you are upping your
                      requirements already? I am going to be generous here and tell you about
                      one: 890m.com; it is certainly adequate to post things for problems with
                      CSS, which is what this group here is about. So check it out.
                      >
                      I will do, thanks.

                      Idaho

                      Comment

                      • rf

                        #41
                        Re: Rant: Microsoft madness

                        DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote in
                        news:brednV5tr7 XAkrnVRVnyiAA@b t.com:
                        rf wrote:
                        >DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote in
                        >news:MrGdnYbNT Kb2nrnVRVnyiQA@ bt.com:
                        >>
                        >>Now shall I get a Merc or a Beemer with my bonus this month :-))
                        >>
                        >Buy some free web space.
                        >>
                        >Googling for "free web space" will tell you where to get it.
                        >>
                        >
                        Why do I have to buy it if it's free ?
                        Because you totally missed the sarcasm :-)

                        --
                        Richard
                        Killing all google groups posts
                        The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org

                        Comment

                        • DuncanIdaho

                          #42
                          Re: Rant: Microsoft madness

                          rf wrote:
                          DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote in
                          news:brednV5tr7 XAkrnVRVnyiAA@b t.com:
                          >
                          >rf wrote:
                          >>DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote in
                          >>news:MrGdnYbN TKb2nrnVRVnyiQA @bt.com:
                          >>>
                          >>>Now shall I get a Merc or a Beemer with my bonus this month :-))
                          >>Buy some free web space.
                          >>>
                          >>Googling for "free web space" will tell you where to get it.
                          >>>
                          >Why do I have to buy it if it's free ?
                          >
                          Because you totally missed the sarcasm :-)
                          >
                          <humourmode state='on'>

                          Ah ha ha, of course. ;)

                          </humourmode>

                          Comment

                          • rf

                            #43
                            Re: Rant: Microsoft madness

                            DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote in
                            news:NPWdndq939 kAv7nVnZ2dnUVZ8 j6dnZ2d@bt.com:
                            rf wrote:
                            >DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote in
                            >news:brednV5tr 7XAkrnVRVnyiAA@ bt.com:
                            >>
                            >>rf wrote:
                            >>>DuncanIdah o <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote in
                            >>>news:MrGdnYb NTKb2nrnVRVnyiQ A@bt.com:
                            >>>>
                            >>>>Now shall I get a Merc or a Beemer with my bonus this month :-))
                            >>>Buy some free web space.
                            >>>>
                            >>>Googling for "free web space" will tell you where to get it.
                            >>>>
                            >>Why do I have to buy it if it's free ?
                            >>
                            >Because you totally missed the sarcasm :-)
                            >>
                            >
                            <humourmode state='on'>
                            >
                            Ah ha ha, of course. ;)
                            >
                            </humourmode>
                            <grin/>

                            In reality the suggestions to post an example page URL (at a free host
                            perhaps) is a good two very good reasons.

                            Firstly, it allows us to see exactly what you are talking about. And
                            often what you are talking about is not the actual problem. the problem
                            can well be elsewhere, especially when IE is involved.

                            Secondly, by building such an example page you may serendipitously find
                            the problem yourself as you revisit the code and prepare it for
                            republication.

                            I have forgotten what your original problem may have been but I can
                            assure you that if you had posted an example to support your original
                            rant you would have had explicit solutions to not only your problem but a
                            whole range of other issues as well, in far less time than this thread
                            has been running. So far you have a whole lot of conjecture about
                            something only you can see. Step outside the door and try viewing it from
                            our side.

                            Hiding "behind the firewall" or "I can't upload my database to a free
                            server" or "my page needs PHP" or whatever is an option. At the very
                            least you simply "save as webpage" any page you have that exhibits the
                            problem. Publish that, which does not need any server side skulduggery.
                            File off serial numbers as required.

                            What you see (and save) in your browser is a totally static page,
                            independent of any server side dynamics. We don't need to see your
                            "applicatio n". We need to see an example of some HTML and CSS that causes
                            your problem. With few exceptions your problem has been seen before and
                            can be commented on. But only if we can actually see it.

                            --
                            Richard
                            Killing all google groups posts
                            The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org

                            Comment

                            • DuncanIdaho

                              #44
                              Re: Rant: Microsoft madness

                              rf wrote:
                              DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote in
                              news:NPWdndq939 kAv7nVnZ2dnUVZ8 j6dnZ2d@bt.com:
                              >
                              >rf wrote:
                              >>DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote in
                              >>news:brednV5t r7XAkrnVRVnyiAA @bt.com:
                              >>>
                              >>>rf wrote:
                              >>>>DuncanIda ho <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote in
                              >>>>news:MrGdnY bNTKb2nrnVRVnyi QA@bt.com:
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>>Now shall I get a Merc or a Beemer with my bonus this month :-))
                              >>>>Buy some free web space.
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>Googling for "free web space" will tell you where to get it.
                              >>>>>
                              >>>Why do I have to buy it if it's free ?
                              >>Because you totally missed the sarcasm :-)
                              >>>
                              ><humourmode state='on'>
                              >>
                              >Ah ha ha, of course. ;)
                              >>
                              ></humourmode>
                              >
                              <grin/>
                              >
                              In reality the suggestions to post an example page URL (at a free host
                              perhaps) is a good two very good reasons.
                              >
                              Firstly, it allows us to see exactly what you are talking about. And
                              often what you are talking about is not the actual problem. the problem
                              can well be elsewhere, especially when IE is involved.
                              >
                              Secondly, by building such an example page you may serendipitously find
                              the problem yourself as you revisit the code and prepare it for
                              republication.
                              >
                              I have forgotten what your original problem may have been but I can
                              assure you that if you had posted an example to support your original
                              rant you would have had explicit solutions to not only your problem but a
                              whole range of other issues as well, in far less time than this thread
                              has been running. So far you have a whole lot of conjecture about
                              something only you can see. Step outside the door and try viewing it from
                              our side.
                              >
                              Hiding "behind the firewall" or "I can't upload my database to a free
                              server" or "my page needs PHP" or whatever is an option. At the very
                              least you simply "save as webpage" any page you have that exhibits the
                              problem. Publish that, which does not need any server side skulduggery.
                              File off serial numbers as required.
                              >
                              What you see (and save) in your browser is a totally static page,
                              independent of any server side dynamics. We don't need to see your
                              "applicatio n". We need to see an example of some HTML and CSS that causes
                              your problem. With few exceptions your problem has been seen before and
                              can be commented on. But only if we can actually see it.
                              >
                              A very sane and reasoned response and one that is hard to argue with.

                              My post was originally designed to 'relieve the tension' so as to speak.
                              I simply couldn't believe what I was seeing and needed to 'share' with
                              others (HR tells us it good to share our problems). I really wasn't
                              asking for any explicit help (I'm starting to sound like a broken record
                              here). I have now found what promises to be the answer to my prayers, a
                              free host at http://www.890m.com/ Thank you 'rf'.

                              So now I have a way of posting code, prepare to be amazed and astounded
                              by my naivety.

                              Thank goodness for Java, Linux and jakarta.apache. org, I don't think I'd
                              stay sane very long if I had to do this for the rest of my working life.

                              Idaho

                              Comment

                              • DuncanIdaho

                                #45
                                Re: Rant: Microsoft madness

                                rf wrote:
                                DuncanIdaho <Duncan.Idaho20 08@googlemail.c omwrote in
                                news:NPWdndq939 kAv7nVnZ2dnUVZ8 j6dnZ2d@bt.com:
                                >
                                Of course that should have been thank you dorayme for www.890m.com

                                Idaho

                                Comment

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