mozilla and <td>-Problem

[Werner Partner]

Re: mozilla and &lt;td&gt;-Problem

Harlan Messinger schrieb:
[color=blue]
> "Werner Partner" <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote in message
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>space, but that still may not be less than the height of the image.
>>>[/color]
>>
>>I tried this already. But perhaps there is another sophisticated
>>possibility .[/color]
>
>
> The version I'm seeing has a lot of excess padding.[/color]

Yes, that's exact what I noticed!
I reported this to bugzilla, and I'm now in contact with them :-)
[color=blue]
>
>[color=green]
>>The container has never more than two lines, when the picture is very
>>small then of course the banner is broader than the picture.
>>
>>The effect came when I changed from HTML 4.01 Transitional to HTML 4.01
>>Strict with CSS.[/color]
>
>
> That probably changed the padding. Or the font sizes. Or something. Nothing
> you can't fix with proper use of CSS.
>[/color]

Yes! But it's an interesting question what could had happened. And with
you I believe that there is surely a method to solve the problem
"correctly" , but I think it takes some time. I should read, and search,
and read ... (and ask!)

Werner


--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Werner Partner * Tel +49 2366 886606 * Fax: 886608
mailto:kairos@s onoptikon.de * http://www.sonoptikon.de
hören Sie Klassik: http://www.drmk.ch/

[Werner Partner]

Re: mozilla and &lt;td&gt;-Problem

Harlan Messinger schrieb:
[color=blue]
> "Werner Partner" <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote in message
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>space, but that still may not be less than the height of the image.
>>>[/color]
>>
>>I tried this already. But perhaps there is another sophisticated
>>possibility .[/color]
>
>
> The version I'm seeing has a lot of excess padding.[/color]

Yes, that's exact what I noticed!
I reported this to bugzilla, and I'm now in contact with them :-)
[color=blue]
>
>[color=green]
>>The container has never more than two lines, when the picture is very
>>small then of course the banner is broader than the picture.
>>
>>The effect came when I changed from HTML 4.01 Transitional to HTML 4.01
>>Strict with CSS.[/color]
>
>
> That probably changed the padding. Or the font sizes. Or something. Nothing
> you can't fix with proper use of CSS.
>[/color]

Yes! But it's an interesting question what could had happened. And with
you I believe that there is surely a method to solve the problem
"correctly" , but I think it takes some time. I should read, and search,
and read ... (and ask!)

Werner


--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Werner Partner * Tel +49 2366 886606 * Fax: 886608
mailto:kairos@s onoptikon.de * http://www.sonoptikon.de
hören Sie Klassik: http://www.drmk.ch/

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: mozilla and &lt;td&gt;-Problem

Werner Partner <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Harlan Messinger schrieb:
>[color=green]
>> "Werner Partner" <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote in message
>>[color=darkred]
>>>>space, but that still may not be less than the height of the image.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I tried this already. But perhaps there is another sophisticated
>>>possibilit y.[/color]
>>
>>
>> The version I'm seeing has a lot of excess padding.[/color]
>
>Yes, that's exact what I noticed!
>I reported this to bugzilla, and I'm now in contact with them :-)[/color]

I'm trying to explain to you that there IS no bug. By default,
browsers typically add a margin underneath headings and paragraphs. If
you want the margin to be something other than the default, you have
to specify that. You haven't. You specified top and bottom padding of
0 for the banner div, but you haven't specified anything about margins
for h1 and h2. So you're getting the correct, default margins for your
browser.

--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ôter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: mozilla and &lt;td&gt;-Problem

Werner Partner <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Harlan Messinger schrieb:
>[color=green]
>> "Werner Partner" <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote in message
>>[color=darkred]
>>>>space, but that still may not be less than the height of the image.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I tried this already. But perhaps there is another sophisticated
>>>possibilit y.[/color]
>>
>>
>> The version I'm seeing has a lot of excess padding.[/color]
>
>Yes, that's exact what I noticed!
>I reported this to bugzilla, and I'm now in contact with them :-)[/color]

I'm trying to explain to you that there IS no bug. By default,
browsers typically add a margin underneath headings and paragraphs. If
you want the margin to be something other than the default, you have
to specify that. You haven't. You specified top and bottom padding of
0 for the banner div, but you haven't specified anything about margins
for h1 and h2. So you're getting the correct, default margins for your
browser.

--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ôter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.

[Werner Partner]

Re: mozilla and &lt;td&gt;-Problem

Harlan Messinger schrieb:[color=blue]
> Werner Partner <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>>Harlan Messinger schrieb:
>>
>>[color=darkred]
>>>"Werner Partner" <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote in message
>>>
>>>
>>>>>space, but that still may not be less than the height of the image.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I tried this already. But perhaps there is another sophisticated
>>>>possibility .
>>>
>>>
>>>The version I'm seeing has a lot of excess padding.[/color]
>>
>>Yes, that's exact what I noticed!
>>I reported this to bugzilla, and I'm now in contact with them :-)[/color]
>
>
> I'm trying to explain to you that there IS no bug. By default,
> browsers typically add a margin underneath headings and paragraphs. If
> you want the margin to be something other than the default, you have
> to specify that. You haven't. You specified top and bottom padding of
> 0 for the banner div, but you haven't specified anything about margins
> for h1 and h2. So you're getting the correct, default margins for your
> browser.
>[/color]

.... and it _is_ a bug ;-)

Of course I think about what went wrong and what I can do solving the
problem.

- why does IE not show this excess padding?

- why does this behavior begin when I take properties away from tags an
put them into css?

- the <td>-padding was exactly movd from tags into stylesheet.

- properties of <h1> and <h2> was not changed at all. And if there would
be changed enything. Why does IE not show this?

regards

Werner

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Werner Partner * Tel +49 2366 886606 * Fax: 886608
mailto:kairos@s onoptikon.de * http://www.sonoptikon.de
hören Sie Klassik: http://www.drmk.ch/

[Werner Partner]

Re: mozilla and &lt;td&gt;-Problem

Harlan Messinger schrieb:[color=blue]
> Werner Partner <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>>Harlan Messinger schrieb:
>>
>>[color=darkred]
>>>"Werner Partner" <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote in message
>>>
>>>
>>>>>space, but that still may not be less than the height of the image.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I tried this already. But perhaps there is another sophisticated
>>>>possibility .
>>>
>>>
>>>The version I'm seeing has a lot of excess padding.[/color]
>>
>>Yes, that's exact what I noticed!
>>I reported this to bugzilla, and I'm now in contact with them :-)[/color]
>
>
> I'm trying to explain to you that there IS no bug. By default,
> browsers typically add a margin underneath headings and paragraphs. If
> you want the margin to be something other than the default, you have
> to specify that. You haven't. You specified top and bottom padding of
> 0 for the banner div, but you haven't specified anything about margins
> for h1 and h2. So you're getting the correct, default margins for your
> browser.
>[/color]

.... and it _is_ a bug ;-)

Of course I think about what went wrong and what I can do solving the
problem.

- why does IE not show this excess padding?

- why does this behavior begin when I take properties away from tags an
put them into css?

- the <td>-padding was exactly movd from tags into stylesheet.

- properties of <h1> and <h2> was not changed at all. And if there would
be changed enything. Why does IE not show this?

regards

Werner

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Werner Partner * Tel +49 2366 886606 * Fax: 886608
mailto:kairos@s onoptikon.de * http://www.sonoptikon.de
hören Sie Klassik: http://www.drmk.ch/

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: mozilla and &lt;td&gt;-Problem

Werner Partner <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Harlan Messinger schrieb:[color=green]
>> Werner Partner <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote:
>>
>>[color=darkred]
>>>Harlan Messinger schrieb:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Werner Partner" <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>space, but that still may not be less than the height of the image.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I tried this already. But perhaps there is another sophisticated
>>>>>possibilit y.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The version I'm seeing has a lot of excess padding.
>>>
>>>Yes, that's exact what I noticed!
>>>I reported this to bugzilla, and I'm now in contact with them :-)[/color]
>>
>>
>> I'm trying to explain to you that there IS no bug. By default,
>> browsers typically add a margin underneath headings and paragraphs. If
>> you want the margin to be something other than the default, you have
>> to specify that. You haven't. You specified top and bottom padding of
>> 0 for the banner div, but you haven't specified anything about margins
>> for h1 and h2. So you're getting the correct, default margins for your
>> browser.
>>[/color]
>
>... and it _is_ a bug ;-)
>
>Of course I think about what went wrong and what I can do solving the
>problem.
>
>- why does IE not show this excess padding?[/color]

Browsers are free to apply their own default styles. Rendering page
elements differently from the way IE does is not a *bug*.

As far as I can tell by looking at your page and giving h1 and h2 a
background color, IE by default gives a positive margin-bottom to h1
and h2, while Mozilla gives both a margin-bottom and margin-top.
[color=blue]
>
>- why does this behavior begin when I take properties away from tags an
>put them into css?[/color]

Since I don't know just what your code looked like before, I can't say
exactly.

Just put margin: 0 in your style for h1 and h2 and you'll see that
your problem goes away immediately.


--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ôter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: mozilla and &lt;td&gt;-Problem

Werner Partner <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Harlan Messinger schrieb:[color=green]
>> Werner Partner <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote:
>>
>>[color=darkred]
>>>Harlan Messinger schrieb:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Werner Partner" <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>space, but that still may not be less than the height of the image.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I tried this already. But perhaps there is another sophisticated
>>>>>possibilit y.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The version I'm seeing has a lot of excess padding.
>>>
>>>Yes, that's exact what I noticed!
>>>I reported this to bugzilla, and I'm now in contact with them :-)[/color]
>>
>>
>> I'm trying to explain to you that there IS no bug. By default,
>> browsers typically add a margin underneath headings and paragraphs. If
>> you want the margin to be something other than the default, you have
>> to specify that. You haven't. You specified top and bottom padding of
>> 0 for the banner div, but you haven't specified anything about margins
>> for h1 and h2. So you're getting the correct, default margins for your
>> browser.
>>[/color]
>
>... and it _is_ a bug ;-)
>
>Of course I think about what went wrong and what I can do solving the
>problem.
>
>- why does IE not show this excess padding?[/color]

Browsers are free to apply their own default styles. Rendering page
elements differently from the way IE does is not a *bug*.

As far as I can tell by looking at your page and giving h1 and h2 a
background color, IE by default gives a positive margin-bottom to h1
and h2, while Mozilla gives both a margin-bottom and margin-top.
[color=blue]
>
>- why does this behavior begin when I take properties away from tags an
>put them into css?[/color]

Since I don't know just what your code looked like before, I can't say
exactly.

Just put margin: 0 in your style for h1 and h2 and you'll see that
your problem goes away immediately.


--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ôter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.

[Werner Partner]

Re: mozilla and &lt;td&gt;-Problem

Harlan Messinger schrieb:[color=blue]
> Werner Partner <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>>Harlan Messinger schrieb:
>>[color=darkred]
>>>Werner Partner <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Harlan Messinger schrieb:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Werner Partner" <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>space, but that still may not be less than the height of the image.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I tried this already. But perhaps there is another sophisticated
>>>>>>possibili ty.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The version I'm seeing has a lot of excess padding.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, that's exact what I noticed!
>>>>I reported this to bugzilla, and I'm now in contact with them :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm trying to explain to you that there IS no bug. By default,
>>>browsers typically add a margin underneath headings and paragraphs. If
>>>you want the margin to be something other than the default, you have
>>>to specify that. You haven't. You specified top and bottom padding of
>>>0 for the banner div, but you haven't specified anything about margins
>>>for h1 and h2. So you're getting the correct, default margins for your
>>>browser.
>>>[/color]
>>
>>... and it _is_ a bug ;-)
>>
>>Of course I think about what went wrong and what I can do solving the
>>problem.
>>
>>- why does IE not show this excess padding?[/color]
>
>
> Browsers are free to apply their own default styles. Rendering page
> elements differently from the way IE does is not a *bug*.
>
> As far as I can tell by looking at your page and giving h1 and h2 a
> background color, IE by default gives a positive margin-bottom to h1
> and h2, while Mozilla gives both a margin-bottom and margin-top.
>
>[color=green]
>>- why does this behavior begin when I take properties away from tags an
>>put them into css?[/color]
>
>
> Since I don't know just what your code looked like before, I can't say
> exactly.
>
> Just put margin: 0 in your style for h1 and h2 and you'll see that
> your problem goes away immediately.
>[/color]

Yes! Exactly!
Interesting to see how everything changes.
The fact is that first I had something like
<table cellpadding="1" ...>

I took everything away and left <table class="banner"> , there is written:
..banner { background-color:#EEEEEE; vertical-align:middle;
padding-left:4px; padding-top:0; padding-bottom:0 }

It seems to be so that the browser, when the properties are in the tags,
has own (or no) default values, when they are taken away the default
values are different.

I think changing from tags to css takes some time until the document
looks that way I want to have it. Some changes are quite attraktive but
there are some unexpected effects (esp. by margin:0), and I must think
about what I like and what not ...

Thanks

Werner


--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Werner Partner * Tel +49 2366 886606 * Fax: 886608
mailto:kairos@s onoptikon.de * http://www.sonoptikon.de
hören Sie Klassik: http://www.drmk.ch/

[Werner Partner]

Re: mozilla and &lt;td&gt;-Problem

Harlan Messinger schrieb:[color=blue]
> Werner Partner <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>>Harlan Messinger schrieb:
>>[color=darkred]
>>>Werner Partner <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Harlan Messinger schrieb:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Werner Partner" <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>space, but that still may not be less than the height of the image.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I tried this already. But perhaps there is another sophisticated
>>>>>>possibili ty.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The version I'm seeing has a lot of excess padding.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, that's exact what I noticed!
>>>>I reported this to bugzilla, and I'm now in contact with them :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm trying to explain to you that there IS no bug. By default,
>>>browsers typically add a margin underneath headings and paragraphs. If
>>>you want the margin to be something other than the default, you have
>>>to specify that. You haven't. You specified top and bottom padding of
>>>0 for the banner div, but you haven't specified anything about margins
>>>for h1 and h2. So you're getting the correct, default margins for your
>>>browser.
>>>[/color]
>>
>>... and it _is_ a bug ;-)
>>
>>Of course I think about what went wrong and what I can do solving the
>>problem.
>>
>>- why does IE not show this excess padding?[/color]
>
>
> Browsers are free to apply their own default styles. Rendering page
> elements differently from the way IE does is not a *bug*.
>
> As far as I can tell by looking at your page and giving h1 and h2 a
> background color, IE by default gives a positive margin-bottom to h1
> and h2, while Mozilla gives both a margin-bottom and margin-top.
>
>[color=green]
>>- why does this behavior begin when I take properties away from tags an
>>put them into css?[/color]
>
>
> Since I don't know just what your code looked like before, I can't say
> exactly.
>
> Just put margin: 0 in your style for h1 and h2 and you'll see that
> your problem goes away immediately.
>[/color]

Yes! Exactly!
Interesting to see how everything changes.
The fact is that first I had something like
<table cellpadding="1" ...>

I took everything away and left <table class="banner"> , there is written:
..banner { background-color:#EEEEEE; vertical-align:middle;
padding-left:4px; padding-top:0; padding-bottom:0 }

It seems to be so that the browser, when the properties are in the tags,
has own (or no) default values, when they are taken away the default
values are different.

I think changing from tags to css takes some time until the document
looks that way I want to have it. Some changes are quite attraktive but
there are some unexpected effects (esp. by margin:0), and I must think
about what I like and what not ...

Thanks

Werner


--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Werner Partner * Tel +49 2366 886606 * Fax: 886608
mailto:kairos@s onoptikon.de * http://www.sonoptikon.de
hören Sie Klassik: http://www.drmk.ch/

[Neal]

Re: mozilla and &lt;td&gt;-Problem

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 14:16:55 +0200, Werner Partner <kairos@sonopti kon.de>
wrote:
[color=blue]
> I think changing from tags to css takes some time until the document
> looks that way I want to have it. Some changes are quite attraktive but
> there are some unexpected effects (esp. by margin:0), and I must think
> about what I like and what not ...[/color]

The effect really isn't unexpected if you think about it. If there's space
between two elements, there's a good chance some margins are set.

[Neal]

Re: mozilla and &lt;td&gt;-Problem

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 14:16:55 +0200, Werner Partner <kairos@sonopti kon.de>
wrote:
[color=blue]
> I think changing from tags to css takes some time until the document
> looks that way I want to have it. Some changes are quite attraktive but
> there are some unexpected effects (esp. by margin:0), and I must think
> about what I like and what not ...[/color]

The effect really isn't unexpected if you think about it. If there's space
between two elements, there's a good chance some margins are set.

[Werner Partner]

Re: mozilla and &lt;td&gt;-Problem

Neal schrieb:
[color=blue]
> On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 14:16:55 +0200, Werner Partner
> <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> I think changing from tags to css takes some time until the document
>> looks that way I want to have it. Some changes are quite attraktive
>> but there are some unexpected effects (esp. by margin:0), and I must
>> think about what I like and what not ...[/color]
>
>
> The effect really isn't unexpected if you think about it. If there's
> space between two elements, there's a good chance some margins are set.[/color]

Well, I began with HTML 1.0 and did not think about it. I think that
some effects came with changing from HTML 4.01 Transitional to Strict.

I "grew up" with old HTML, very simple pages. For me the effects are
unexpected, but somehow it's fine not to be depending from standards
which I don't know. So I may turn at different screws and look what
happens and how the document changes. Very instructive!

And it is possible to create very fine changes. So I read and screw, and
read and screw ...

Werner

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Werner Partner * Tel +49 2366 886606 * Fax: 886608
mailto:kairos@s onoptikon.de * http://www.sonoptikon.de
hören Sie Klassik: http://www.drmk.ch/

[Werner Partner]

Re: mozilla and &lt;td&gt;-Problem

Neal schrieb:
[color=blue]
> On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 14:16:55 +0200, Werner Partner
> <kairos@sonopti kon.de> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> I think changing from tags to css takes some time until the document
>> looks that way I want to have it. Some changes are quite attraktive
>> but there are some unexpected effects (esp. by margin:0), and I must
>> think about what I like and what not ...[/color]
>
>
> The effect really isn't unexpected if you think about it. If there's
> space between two elements, there's a good chance some margins are set.[/color]

Well, I began with HTML 1.0 and did not think about it. I think that
some effects came with changing from HTML 4.01 Transitional to Strict.

I "grew up" with old HTML, very simple pages. For me the effects are
unexpected, but somehow it's fine not to be depending from standards
which I don't know. So I may turn at different screws and look what
happens and how the document changes. Very instructive!

And it is possible to create very fine changes. So I read and screw, and
read and screw ...

Werner

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Werner Partner * Tel +49 2366 886606 * Fax: 886608
mailto:kairos@s onoptikon.de * http://www.sonoptikon.de
hören Sie Klassik: http://www.drmk.ch/

[Neal]

Re: mozilla and &lt;td&gt;-Problem

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 15:34:31 +0200, Werner Partner <kairos@sonopti kon.de>
wrote:
[color=blue]
> And it is possible to create very fine changes. So I read and screw, and
> read and screw ...[/color]


You got it. The more you experiment, the more you discover.