Hiding text - an acceptable method?

[Jon]

Often asked is "I want to put some words on a site so that it is found by
search engines but not vistors"

We know that google particularly "frowns" upon this.

Howver, I've recently seen a page that had a css:

<style type="text/css">
<!--
..ItsHidden { position: absolute; left: -1500px; top: -1000px;}
-->
</style>

Then for a table:

<table width="695" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"
class="ItsHidde n">
<tr>
<td><h1 align="center"> Heading - This Table Is Hidden</h1>
<p align="center"> Description Here</p>
<p align="center"> Menu</p>
<p align="center"> <a href="#">1 Link</a> | <a href="#">2
Link</a> | <a href="#">3 Link</a></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>

This is only hidden if the browser supports CSS so needs constructing
neatly.

I'm aware of google's advise but not sure how it would deal with this

Any thoughts on this?

Jon

[Stephen Poley]

Re: Hiding text - an acceptable method?

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 20:03:19 +0000 (UTC), "Jon"
<jon@SPAM_OFFth eexperts.co.uk> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Often asked is "I want to put some words on a site so that it is found by
>search engines but not vistors"
>
>We know that google particularly "frowns" upon this.[/color]

<snip>
[color=blue]
>I'm aware of google's advise but not sure how it would deal with this
>
>Any thoughts on this?[/color]

Search engines are intended to be a service to the people doing the
searching. Site owners who pull these sorts of tricks are in essence
vandals who are damaging the service. They should be regarded in much
the same category as spammers, graffiti-artists and litter-louts.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

[Jon]

Re: Hiding text - an acceptable method?

<snip>[color=blue]
> Search engines are intended to be a service to the people doing the
> searching. Site owners who pull these sorts of tricks are in essence
> vandals who are damaging the service. They should be regarded in much
> the same category as spammers, graffiti-artists and litter-louts.
>
> --
> Stephen Poley
>
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/[/color]

Stephen, maybe I didn't explain.

I would use this where the navigation system is wriiten in javascript (drop
down menus) or flash (well not on my sites!!) to allow the search engine /
basic browsers to 'find' the rest of the site, as the example was supposed
to show.

Now I've given more information would you reconsider your response?

thanks

Jon

[David Dorward]

Re: Hiding text - an acceptable method?

Jon wrote:
[color=blue]
> I would use this where the navigation system is wriiten in javascript
> (drop down menus)[/color]

If you *must* use drop down menus, then write them in HTML and then
manipulate them with JavaScript - don't generate them from JavaScript.


--
David Dorward <http://dorward.me.uk/>

[Jon]

Re: Hiding text - an acceptable method?

I'll confess to not knowing how to do that!

Have you any examples?

Jon

"David Dorward" <dorward@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:bvc1sb$acg $1$830fa7b3@new s.demon.co.uk.. .[color=blue]
> Jon wrote:
>[color=green]
> > I would use this where the navigation system is wriiten in javascript
> > (drop down menus)[/color]
>
> If you *must* use drop down menus, then write them in HTML and then
> manipulate them with JavaScript - don't generate them from JavaScript.
>
>
> --
> David Dorward <http://dorward.me.uk/>[/color]

[Stephen Poley]

Re: Hiding text - an acceptable method?

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:46:27 +0000 (UTC), "Jon"
<jon@SPAM_OFFth eexperts.co.uk> wrote:
[color=blue]
><snip>[color=green]
>> Search engines are intended to be a service to the people doing the
>> searching. Site owners who pull these sorts of tricks are in essence
>> vandals who are damaging the service. They should be regarded in much
>> the same category as spammers, graffiti-artists and litter-louts.[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
>Stephen, maybe I didn't explain.[/color]
[color=blue]
>I would use this where the navigation system is wriiten in javascript (drop
>down menus) or flash (well not on my sites!!) to allow the search engine /
>basic browsers to 'find' the rest of the site, as the example was supposed
>to show.
>
>Now I've given more information would you reconsider your response?[/color]

OK, rather than asking whether it's an acceptable method, you're
actually asking whether it's an acceptable *reason*. That wasn't clear
to me.

Reconsidered response: Not a very good reason, I would have thought.

What about the many users (like myself) who nearly always have CSS
enabled, but usually Javascript disabled? As David says, the way to make
Javascript menus is to start with the HTML links and then apply
Javascript decoration, so the underlying links still work for
non-Javascript readers.

If, hypothetically, there was still some situation that wasn't
adequately covered, the most appropropriate approach would be to provide
a separate "site map" page. Provided appropriate link texts are used,
such a page could be as useful to human visitors as to spiders.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

[kaeli]

Re: Hiding text - an acceptable method?

In article <bvc2k0$b6n$1@h ercules.btinter net.com>,
jon@SPAM_OFFthe experts.co.uk enlightened us with...[color=blue]
> I'll confess to not knowing how to do that!
>
> Have you any examples?
>[/color]

Simply providing the links in text at the bottom of the page, as many
sites do, or having a site map is sufficient, IMO, for both humans with
JS disabled and for the spiders.

Besides, if your menu is only in javascript, what happens if it's
"broken" in some browsers? How are people supposed to navigate? What
about the browsers for the visually impaired?

Never rely on script for a site's functionality unless it's for an
intranet or other application where you know your users and their
browsers.

--
--
~kaeli~
Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make
a nice sandwich.

http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart

http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

[Jon]

Re: Hiding text - an acceptable method?

Point taken, I've used site maps before - and will do so in the future.

That way I'll keep everyone happy!!

Thanks for the input

Jon
"Stephen Poley" <sbpoleySpicedH amTrap@xs4all.n l> wrote in message
news:9ngk10hcqv oe3ifh8rg475chv l26rs0eq5@4ax.c om...[color=blue]
> On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:46:27 +0000 (UTC), "Jon"
> <jon@SPAM_OFFth eexperts.co.uk> wrote:
>[color=green]
> ><snip>[color=darkred]
> >> Search engines are intended to be a service to the people doing the
> >> searching. Site owners who pull these sorts of tricks are in essence
> >> vandals who are damaging the service. They should be regarded in much
> >> the same category as spammers, graffiti-artists and litter-louts.[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
> >Stephen, maybe I didn't explain.[/color]
>[color=green]
> >I would use this where the navigation system is wriiten in javascript[/color][/color]
(drop[color=blue][color=green]
> >down menus) or flash (well not on my sites!!) to allow the search engine[/color][/color]
/[color=blue][color=green]
> >basic browsers to 'find' the rest of the site, as the example was[/color][/color]
supposed[color=blue][color=green]
> >to show.
> >
> >Now I've given more information would you reconsider your response?[/color]
>
> OK, rather than asking whether it's an acceptable method, you're
> actually asking whether it's an acceptable *reason*. That wasn't clear
> to me.
>
> Reconsidered response: Not a very good reason, I would have thought.
>
> What about the many users (like myself) who nearly always have CSS
> enabled, but usually Javascript disabled? As David says, the way to make
> Javascript menus is to start with the HTML links and then apply
> Javascript decoration, so the underlying links still work for
> non-Javascript readers.
>
> If, hypothetically, there was still some situation that wasn't
> adequately covered, the most appropropriate approach would be to provide
> a separate "site map" page. Provided appropriate link texts are used,
> such a page could be as useful to human visitors as to spiders.
>
> --
> Stephen Poley
>
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/[/color]

[David Dorward]

Re: Hiding text - an acceptable method?

Jon wrote:
[color=blue]
> I'll confess to not knowing how to do that![/color]

Do what? http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post
[color=blue]
> Have you any examples?[/color]

http://www.gazingus.org/html/Using_Lists_for_DHTML_Menus.html

--
David Dorward <http://dorward.me.uk/>

[Brian]

Re: Hiding text - an acceptable method?

Jon wrote:[color=blue]
>
> Thanks for the input[/color]

How am I supposed to post my replies in a newsgroup?:

http://allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post

--
Brian (follow directions in my address to email me)

http://www.tsmchughs.com/