Question About Frames Usage?

[JohnnyCJohnny]

Re: Question About Frames Usage?

Stanimir Stamenkov <s7an10@netscap e.net> wrote in message news:<bss75p$t2 ie$1@ID-207379.news.uni-berlin.de>...[color=blue]
> JohnnyCJohnny wrote:
>[color=green]
> > Is it pretty safe to say that almost all web surfers now use browsers
> > that are Frames compatible? What are most people using these days?
> > IE?[/color]
>
> Lynx! ;-)[/color]

Is Lynx a frames-compatible browser? What percentage of people use Lynx?

[Alan J. Flavell]

Re: Question About Frames Usage?

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, JohnnyCJohnny wrote:
[color=blue]
> Is Lynx a frames-compatible browser?[/color]

First, you need to define "compatible ". Lynx has no problem accessing
the content of framed sites. The frames are just a pointless extra
nuisance.
[color=blue]
> What percentage of people use Lynx?[/color]

What percentage of the world population are President of the USA,
for example? What conclusions do you draw from your answer?

As far as you're concerned, Lynx may be best thought of as a model of
what an indexing robot "sees" in a web site.

[Brian]

Re: Question About Frames Usage?

Alan J. Flavell wrote:[color=blue]
> On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, Brian wrote:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> It's pretty safe to say that most web users are using browsers
>>> which are noframes-incompatible.[/color]
>>
>> I can't quite parse the double negative there. Opera, e.g.,
>> seems to be capable of rendering the noframes element when in
>> no-frames mode. And Lynx has no trouble with noframes content.[/color]
>
> And "most web users" are not using Opera nor Lynx. QED.[/color]

Ah, of course. And now that you've hit me over the head with it, your
comment above makes perfect sense. ("Light dawns on marble head...")
[color=blue]
> "most web users" need extra author consideration if they are to be
> empowered to access the no-frames variant of the web site. Some of
> the others (can we call them the "discerning minority"?) have the
> ability (and maybe also the knowledge) to be able to insist on the
> noframed version, under their own control, without help from the
> page author.[/color]

Got it, and couldn't agree more.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[David Dorward]

Re: Question About Frames Usage?

Alan J. Flavell wrote:[color=blue]
> On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, David Dorward wrote:[color=green]
>> Brian wrote:[color=darkred]
>> > Alan J. Flavell wrote:
>> >> It's pretty safe to say that most web users are using browsers which
>> >> are noframes-incompatible.[/color][/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> What you just said is true enough, in itself, but if that was intended
> to be a translation of what I meant, then I'd have to deny it.[/color]

Whoops, I misread what you typed.

--
David Dorward <http://dorward.me.uk/>

[JohnnyCJohnny]

Re: Question About Frames Usage?

"StardogChampio n" <stardogchampio n@blueyonder.co .uk> wrote in message news:<kChIb.186 8$7a7.15315107@ news-text.cableinet. net>...[color=blue]
> "JohnnyCJoh nny" <johnwc@patmedi a.net> wrote in message
> news:cd2ccfd9.0 312300750.1ae9f 16a@posting.goo gle.com...[color=green]
> > Is it pretty safe to say that almost all web surfers now use browsers
> > that are Frames compatible? What are most people using these days?
> > IE?
> >
> > Thanks[/color]
>
> http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp[/color]

Thanks! That pretty much answers my question. 96% of the browers
these days are IE of one form or another. That is my target audience.
Frames are OK to use.

[JohnnyCJohnny]

Re: Question About Frames Usage?

"Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@ph.gla .ac.uk> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX. 4.53.0312301632 130.15244@ppepc 56.ph.gla.ac.uk >...[color=blue]
> On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, JohnnyCJohnny wrote:
>[color=green]
> > Is it pretty safe to say that almost all web surfers now use browsers
> > that are Frames compatible?[/color]
>
> It's pretty safe to say that most web users are using browsers which
> are noframes-incompatible.
>
> If you're still crazy enough to insist on using frames (their
> inventor, i.e Netscape, seems to have given up using frames on their
> own web pages, except for special purposes, within less than a year of
> plonking down this misbegotten design on the W3C as a fait accompli).
>[color=green]
> > What are most people using these days?[/color]
>
> Something which has deliberately ruled itself out as a WWW browser, by
> intentionally violating mandatory requirements of the relevant W3C and
> IETF specifications.
>[color=green]
> > IE?[/color]
>
> You might say that...
>
> But nevertheless, with a bit of author consideration, IE is capable of
> browsing properly-made WWW pages, so there's no need to go designing
> special page versions for it. After all, most of the folks who are
> using IE have never made an explicit choice. They're accustomed to
> what it does. If you want to also appeal to a discerning audience,
> then design for the WWW, with due consideration of the letter and
> spirit of their specifications, including the WAI. Doing frames
> properly is a lot of work - the result still rates to be inferior.
>
> Presumably, search engines are of interest to you also? After all, a
> large proportion of web pages are found via a search engine. If a
> would-be reader never finds your page in the first place, it really
> doesn't matter whether their browser supports your frames or not.[/color]

I want to use frames for navagation purposes on my company's website.
It is a very practical solution to the navigation problems I've been
having in my design. There are still plenty of websites that use
frames, and 96% of webbrowsers (the target audience for my company)
are using IE, so I feel OK designing a site around frames.

[jake]

Re: Question About Frames Usage?

In message <vv3928s3cabg31 @corp.supernews .com>, Peter Foti
<peterf@systoli cNOSPAMnetworks .com> writes[color=blue]
>"JohnnyCJohnny " <johnwc@patmedi a.net> wrote in message
>news:cd2ccfd9. 0312300750.1ae9 f16a@posting.go ogle.com...[color=green]
>> Is it pretty safe to say that almost all web surfers now use browsers
>> that are Frames compatible? What are most people using these days?
>> IE?[/color]
>
>IE is the leading user agent these days... but that doesn't mean it's ok to
>use frames (or to write HTML for IE only). If you code your site
>semantically correct, then your site will be more accessible to people with
>disabilities . For example, a blind person who uses an aural browser to read
>the page to him/her... how do you think frames would be handled in that
>situation? Not very well.[/color]

Actually, a modern screen-reader/voice browser doesn't have any problems
with navigating a frames-based site. On entering the site I can ask for
frames details and be told (a) how many frames (b) what they are.

I can then simply toggle between frames.

So. There's no real problems ...... just the annoyance of having to
toggle between frames -- especially if it's the classic 3-frame site:
(1) Company/Organisation banner
(2) Menu
(3) Main content.

In most cases, though, there's really nothing to be gained by using
frames for this kind of set-up.

regards.[color=blue]
>
>Regards,
>Peter Foti
>
>[/color]

--
Jake

[Darin McGrew]

Re: Question About Frames Usage?

"StardogChampio n" <stardogchampio n@blueyonder.co .uk> wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>> http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp[/color][/color]

JohnnyCJohnny <johnwc@patmedi a.net> wrote:[color=blue]
> Thanks! That pretty much answers my question. 96% of the browers
> these days are IE of one form or another. That is my target audience.[/color]

Or at least, they claim to be MSIE in one form or another. Someone recently
posted stats that indicated that a surprisingly large share of the browsers
that claim to be MSIE do not process Microsoft's "conditiona l comments",
and thus, are not really MSIE.

See also http://webtips.dantobias.com/brand-x/useragent.html
[color=blue]
> Frames are OK to use.[/color]

Many of the problems caused by frames have nothing to do with whether most
browsers support them:

http://www.htmlhelp.com/faq/html/frames.html#frame-problems

--
Darin McGrew, mcgrew@stanford alumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, darin@htmlhelp. com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"The handwriting on the wall may mean you need a notepad by the phone."

[Mark Parnell]

Re: Question About Frames Usage?

On 30 Dec 2003 15:05:01 -0800, JohnnyCJohnny declared in
comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html:[color=blue]
>
> I want to use frames for navagation purposes on my company's website.[/color]

Why?
[color=blue]
> It is a very practical solution to the navigation problems I've been
> having in my design.[/color]

I doubt it. Chances are that if you tell us what it is you are actually
trying to achieve, there is at least one better way of doing it.
[color=blue]
> There are still plenty of websites that use
> frames, and 96% of webbrowsers (the target audience for my company)[/color]

Or 85%, or 76.23%, or any other figure you feel like making up.

http://j3e.de/statistics_lie.html

[color=blue]
> are using IE, so I feel OK designing a site around frames.[/color]

It's highly unlikely that the figure is *that* high (see the link
above), though it is also unlikely anyone will try to tell you that IE
doesn't hold the majority (just not 96%).

As Alan said, search engines don't tend to like frames much, and that's
just one of the problems.

http://html-faq.com/htmlframes/?framesareevil

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/l_vajzovic/tom/web/frames.html

http://dorward.me.uk/www/frames/

--
Mark Parnell

http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au

[Alan J. Flavell]

Re: Question About Frames Usage?

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, JohnnyCJohnny wrote:

[unnecessarily comprehensive quotage now excised]
[color=blue][color=green]
> > Presumably, search engines are of interest to you also? After all, a
> > large proportion of web pages are found via a search engine. If a
> > would-be reader never finds your page in the first place, it really
> > doesn't matter whether their browser supports your frames or not.[/color]
>
> I want to use frames for navagation purposes on my company's website.[/color]

Of course you do; and like so many before you, you've tailored your
questions to ensure that you get the answer that you'd already decided
upon. Well, Usenet is not so naive as to fall for that trick - it's
not as if there hasn't been a steady procession of frames-merchants
trying the same manoeuvre before - but that doesn't matter, because
you're going to disregard any answers which disagree with your
preconceived notion anyway.
[color=blue]
> It is a very practical solution to the navigation problems I've been
> having in my design.[/color]

If that's the answer, then there was something wrong with the
question.
[color=blue]
> There are still plenty of websites that use frames,[/color]

Which gives you the opportunity to do better. But you've already
decided not to.
[color=blue]
> and 96%[/color]

....of statistics are made up...
[color=blue]
> of webbrowsers (the target audience for my company)[/color]

So you're not interested in the "www" part of the name of this group.
No surprises there. Even the customers of sites that sell exclusively
MS software have been known to use other vendors' products too - just
to take one example, cellphone/browser combinations.
[color=blue]
> are using IE,[/color]

....or sending a client agent string which appears to be IE, if only to
compensate for the kind of web designer that you appear to be...
[color=blue]
> so I feel OK designing a site around frames.[/color]

I don't think any of us doubted that from the outset. Frames
designers have the kind of one-track visual-only approach that's
incompatible even with MSIE, when one takes into account all the
situations in which MSIE gets used (have you tried a framed site on
IBM HPR yet? No, of course you haven't - how silly of me to ask.)

[JohnnyCJohnny]

Re: Question About Frames Usage?

"Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@ph.gla .ac.uk> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX. 4.53.0312302329 520.15502@ppepc 56.ph.gla.ac.uk >...[color=blue]
> On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, JohnnyCJohnny wrote:
>
> [unnecessarily comprehensive quotage now excised]
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > Presumably, search engines are of interest to you also? After all, a
> > > large proportion of web pages are found via a search engine. If a
> > > would-be reader never finds your page in the first place, it really
> > > doesn't matter whether their browser supports your frames or not.[/color]
> >
> > I want to use frames for navagation purposes on my company's website.[/color]
>
> Of course you do; and like so many before you, you've tailored your
> questions to ensure that you get the answer that you'd already decided
> upon. Well, Usenet is not so naive as to fall for that trick - it's
> not as if there hasn't been a steady procession of frames-merchants
> trying the same manoeuvre before - but that doesn't matter, because
> you're going to disregard any answers which disagree with your
> preconceived notion anyway.
>[color=green]
> > It is a very practical solution to the navigation problems I've been
> > having in my design.[/color]
>
> If that's the answer, then there was something wrong with the
> question.
>[color=green]
> > There are still plenty of websites that use frames,[/color]
>
> Which gives you the opportunity to do better. But you've already
> decided not to.
>[color=green]
> > and 96%[/color]
>
> ...of statistics are made up...
>[color=green]
> > of webbrowsers (the target audience for my company)[/color]
>
> So you're not interested in the "www" part of the name of this group.
> No surprises there. Even the customers of sites that sell exclusively
> MS software have been known to use other vendors' products too - just
> to take one example, cellphone/browser combinations.
>[color=green]
> > are using IE,[/color]
>
> ...or sending a client agent string which appears to be IE, if only to
> compensate for the kind of web designer that you appear to be...
>[color=green]
> > so I feel OK designing a site around frames.[/color]
>
> I don't think any of us doubted that from the outset. Frames
> designers have the kind of one-track visual-only approach that's
> incompatible even with MSIE, when one takes into account all the
> situations in which MSIE gets used (have you tried a framed site on
> IBM HPR yet? No, of course you haven't - how silly of me to ask.)[/color]

You need to get a friggin life. You act as though you have a personal
interest in how people design their websites?!? It's like a political
debate to you. Frames are not the end of the world. When I surf the
Internet, frames never cause me problems these days, I hardly even
know they are there. Frames used to be more of an issue back in the
late 1990s, when there were a whole bunch of browser, some of which
didn't use frames. I'm not designing an ecommerce site that needs to
reach 99.9% of web users. It's just a run-of-the-mill company website
(which is designed to inform our potential customers about our
company) that probably gets only around 1,000 hits a year. If frames
are the best solution to my navigation problems, then that's what I'll
go with. Thanks for your input, no matter how bizarely anti-frames
biased it is.

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: Question About Frames Usage?


"jake" <jake@gododdin. demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mqRD4PmHOg 8$Ewis@gododdin .demon.co.uk...[color=blue]
> In message <vv3928s3cabg31 @corp.supernews .com>, Peter Foti
> <peterf@systoli cNOSPAMnetworks .com> writes[color=green]
> >"JohnnyCJohnny " <johnwc@patmedi a.net> wrote in message
> >news:cd2ccfd9. 0312300750.1ae9 f16a@posting.go ogle.com...[color=darkred]
> >> Is it pretty safe to say that almost all web surfers now use browsers
> >> that are Frames compatible? What are most people using these days?
> >> IE?[/color]
> >
> >IE is the leading user agent these days... but that doesn't mean it's ok[/color][/color]
to[color=blue][color=green]
> >use frames (or to write HTML for IE only). If you code your site
> >semantically correct, then your site will be more accessible to people[/color][/color]
with[color=blue][color=green]
> >disabilities . For example, a blind person who uses an aural browser to[/color][/color]
read[color=blue][color=green]
> >the page to him/her... how do you think frames would be handled in that
> >situation? Not very well.[/color]
>
> Actually, a modern screen-reader/voice browser doesn't have any problems
> with navigating a frames-based site. On entering the site I can ask for
> frames details and be told (a) how many frames (b) what they are.
>
> I can then simply toggle between frames.
>
> So. There's no real problems ...... just the annoyance of having to
> toggle between frames -- especially if it's the classic 3-frame site:
> (1) Company/Organisation banner
> (2) Menu
> (3) Main content.[/color]

Which, now that aural browsers are handling frames, is probably even better.
Without frames, you have the annoyance of sitting through the banner and top
links before getting to the content, unless the developer has put a "skip
navigation" link at the top. And then, when you *want* to get back to the
navigation, you have to go to the links list, or go to the top of the page
and tab up to them, which isn't any easier than going to the links *frame*.
With the frames approach, the banner is *always* out of the way, and the nav
links are out of the way until you want them, at which time they are easily
reached.

There are other reasons to avoid frames, but aural browsers are not one of
them. (To me, the best reason to avoid them is that there isn't a good way
for people to bookmark an arbitrary page on your site if you use them. If
they're savvy, they can find out the page that is the source of the main
content, but if they save that as a Favorite, when they return to it they
will see it in the full browser, and the banner and navigation will be
missing.)

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: Question About Frames Usage?


"Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@ph.gla .ac.uk> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4 .53.03123023295 20.15502@ppepc5 6.ph.gla.ac.uk. ..[color=blue]
> I don't think any of us doubted that from the outset. Frames
> designers have the kind of one-track visual-only approach that's
> incompatible even with MSIE, when one takes into account all the
> situations in which MSIE gets used (have you tried a framed site on
> IBM HPR yet? No, of course you haven't - how silly of me to ask.)[/color]

I have, and it works fine as far as I can tell. When you browse to a page,
it tells you how many frames there are, and starts you on the last one.
Ctrl-E presents a frame selection list. Ctrl-Tab moves from frame to frame.
What's not to like? There are reasons not to use frames, but HPR isn't one
of them.

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: Question About Frames Usage?


"JohnnyCJoh nny" <johnwc@patmedi a.net> wrote in message
news:cd2ccfd9.0 312310800.12762 4d3@posting.goo gle.com...
[color=blue]
> If frames
> are the best solution to my navigation problems, then that's what I'll
> go with.[/color]

Just out of curiosity, what is so special about your navigation "problems"
that the same kinds of non-frames-based methods that most other developers
are using these days wouldn't work for you? Well, I can think of one: if
you're using static pages, then it's tedious to maintain--and change--a
uniform look and feel, and frames can help. But even if you have access to
nothing more than server-side includes, it's better than using frames.

[C A Upsdell]

Re: Question About Frames Usage?

"JohnnyCJoh nny" <johnwc@patmedi a.net> wrote in message
news:cd2ccfd9.0 312300750.1ae9f 16a@posting.goo gle.com...[color=blue]
> Is it pretty safe to say that almost all web surfers now use browsers
> that are Frames compatible? What are most people using these days?
> IE?[/color]

Opera has an option to disable frames.

Yes, most use IE, but a growing number do not. A lot of people using OS X
are using Safari; and a growing number, about 6% now, are using Gecko-based
browsers ... 20% on my site. See

http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat.htm