Bad? Or not? (But I think I already know...)

**Peter Foti** · Jul 20 '05, 04:16 PM

Re: Bad? Or not? (But I think I already know...)

"The Plankmeister" <plankmeister_N OSPAM_@hotmail. com> wrote in message
news:3f8d923a$0 $45370$edfadb0f @dread11.news.t ele.dk...[color=blue]
> Is doing this bad:
>
> <h3>Some title or other...<a href="#pagetop" >back to top</a></h3>
>
> I have a feeling it is... My problem is I'm using CSS to style the H3 into[/color]
a[color=blue]
> block that spans the whole containing element. I would like the <a> to
> appear next to the title, but I'm sure this is bad practice (for screen
> readers and heading-level navigation etc etc)
>
> So... is it acceptable to do this:
>
> <span><h3>Som e title or other...</h3><a href="#pagetop" >back to
> top</a></span>[/color]

I haven't confirmed this in the spec, but I think <h3> is NOT an inline
element, so using span would be incorrect. A better solution might be:

<div class="myheadin g3">
<h3>Hello World</h3>
<a href="#pagetop" class="toplink" >back to top</a>
</div>

Putting the <a> in the <h3> is most likely incorrect semantics.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Peter Foti

**Jim Dabell** · Jul 20 '05, 04:16 PM

Re: Bad? Or not? (But I think I already know...)

The Plankmeister wrote:
[color=blue]
> Is doing this bad:
>
> <h3>Some title or other...<a href="#pagetop" >back to top</a></h3>
>
> I have a feeling it is...[/color]

I'd say so, as the 'back to top' text isn't part of the header.

[color=blue]
> My problem is I'm using CSS to style the H3 into a block that spans the
> whole containing element. I would like the <a> to appear next to the
> title, but I'm sure this is bad practice (for screen readers and
> heading-level navigation etc etc)
>
> So... is it acceptable to do this:
>
> <span><h3>Som e title or other...</h3><a href="#pagetop" >back to
> top</a></span>
>
> Or does nesting the <h3> in a <span> do something horrible to the document
> structure?[/color]

<span> elements cannot contain block-level elements, so you'd get a
validation error immediately upon opening the <h3> element (with XHTML), or
when you attempt to close the <span> element (with HTML).

In practice, I wouldn't be surprised if you had difficulty styling things
the way you want in some browsers, as the <h3> element wouldn't be within
the <span> element as you intend.

Use a <div> element in place of the <span> element, and you should be fine.
An even better approach would be to pick a more suitable element, but
without knowing the context, I can't suggest one (and there may not even be
one).

--
Jim Dabell

**Samuël van Laere** · Jul 20 '05, 04:16 PM

Re: Bad? Or not? (But I think I already know...)

"The Plankmeister" <plankmeister_N OSPAM_@hotmail. com> schreef in bericht
news:3f8d923a$0 $45370$edfadb0f @dread11.news.t ele.dk...[color=blue]
> Is doing this bad:
>
> <h3>Some title or other...<a href="#pagetop" >back to top</a></h3>
>
> I have a feeling it is... My problem is I'm using CSS to style the H3 into[/color]
a[color=blue]
> block that spans the whole containing element. I would like the <a> to
> appear next to the title, but I'm sure this is bad practice (for screen
> readers and heading-level navigation etc etc)
>
> So... is it acceptable to do this:
>
> <span><h3>Som e title or other...</h3><a href="#pagetop" >back to
> top</a></span>
>
> Or does nesting the <h3> in a <span> do something horrible to the document
> structure?
>
> Comments, please! :)
>
> P.
>[/color]

<h3><span>Som e title or other...</span></h3>
<a href="#pagetop" >back to top</a>

Or is this not what you want?

--
With regards,
Samuël van Laere
the Netherlands

http://samuel.phpindex.nl

**Jukka K. Korpela** · Jul 20 '05, 04:16 PM

Re: Bad? Or not? (But I think I already know...)

Jim Dabell <jim-usenet@jimdabel l.com> wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Is doing this bad:
>>
>> <h3>Some title or other...<a href="#pagetop" >back to top</a></h3>
>>
>> I have a feeling it is...[/color]
>
> I'd say so, as the 'back to top' text isn't part of the header.[/color]

That's true, structurally (and presentationall y it would result in
displaying the link in heading style unless you specifically try to
prevent that).

But the main point, IMHO, is that the "back to top" links are worse
than useless, irrespectively of markup and presentation issues:
- they add nothing to the functionality, since they are just poor
duplication of every browser's built-in function for getting to
the top
- they look real foolish on paper
- they disturb the tabbing order, making it more awkward to move around
links using the tab key
- they pollute the list of links on a page (and this is relevant e.g.
to blind user who navigates using a browser-constructed list of
links on a page)
- they are not unambiguous in meaning (top of _what_? site?)
- they are misleading when the user has followed a link that leads to
some anchor inside the document - going "back" would have different
meaning then
etc.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

**Jonathan Snook** · Jul 20 '05, 04:16 PM

Re: Bad? Or not? (But I think I already know...)

"The Plankmeister" <plankmeister_N OSPAM_@hotmail. com> wrote in message
news:3f8d923a$0 $45370$edfadb0f @dread11.news.t ele.dk...[color=blue]
> Is doing this bad:
>
> <h3>Some title or other...<a href="#pagetop" >back to top</a></h3>[/color]

How about removing the "back to top" altogether? Most user agents support a
way to return to the top of the page with ease.

Jonathan

--

Snook.ca: Life & Times of a Web Developer.

http://www.snook.ca/

Snook.ca - Life and Times of a Web Developer

**Salagir** · Jul 20 '05, 04:17 PM

Re: Bad? Or not? (But I think I already know...)

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 23:33:40 GMT, in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html,
Jonathan Snook wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
> > Is doing this bad:
> > <h3>Some title or other...<a href="#pagetop" >back to top</a></h3>[/color]
> How about removing the "back to top" altogether? Most user agents support a
> way to return to the top of the page with ease.[/color]

Yeah, did everyone forgot what the "home" key is for ?

I've never understood theses website with links to places where we can
easily go by ourselves: "back" links with a javascript:hist ory(-1),
"top" links like this one, etc..

(followup to authoring.html, no stylesheets here)
--
++++++++ Zelda, Dragon Ball, Mana and my (art)work at www.salagir.com ++++++++
Pas de violence, c'est les vacances !

**Matthias Gutfeldt** · Jul 20 '05, 04:17 PM

Re: Bad? Or not? (But I think I already know...)

Salagir wrote:[color=blue]
> On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 23:33:40 GMT, in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html,
> Jonathan Snook wrote:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>Is doing this bad:
>>><h3>Some title or other...<a href="#pagetop" >back to top</a></h3>[/color]
>>
>> How about removing the "back to top" altogether? Most user agents support a
>> way to return to the top of the page with ease.[/color]
>
>
> Yeah, did everyone forgot what the "home" key is for ?
>
> I've never understood theses website with links to places where we can
> easily go by ourselves: "back" links with a javascript:hist ory(-1),
> "top" links like this one, etc..[/color]

Yeah, it's complete nonsense. Some clients can be convinced, but others
simply say "it's more convenient" or "nobody knows how the browser
works". Most of the time it's just THEM who don't know how the browser
works and can't be bothered to learn how to operate their software. Oh well.

Matthias

**Tina Holmboe** · Jul 20 '05, 04:17 PM

Re: Bad? Or not? (But I think I already know...)

Salagir <Salagir@jeruCI TEDELESPACE.org .invalid> exclaimed in <3f8e545b$0$104 28$626a54ce@new s.free.fr>:
[color=blue]
> Yeah, did everyone forgot what the "home" key is for ?[/color]

You are, in other words, quite convinced that (a) all UAs have such
functionality, (b) the HOME key exist in all circumstances ?

--
- Tina Holmboe Greytower Technologies
tina@greytower. net http://www.greytower.net/
[+46] 0708 557 905

**Brian** · Jul 20 '05, 04:17 PM

Re: Bad? Or not? (But I think I already know...)

Tina Holmboe wrote:[color=blue]
> Salagir <Salagir@jeruCI TEDELESPACE.org .invalid> exclaimed in
> <3f8e545b$0$104 28$626a54ce@new s.free.fr>:
>[color=green]
>> Yeah, did everyone forgot what the "home" key is for ?[/color]
>
> You are, in other words, quite convinced that (a) all UAs have such
> functionality,[/color]

Is there a ua that does not have the ability to go to the top of a page?

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

**Tina Holmboe** · Jul 20 '05, 04:17 PM

Re: Bad? Or not? (But I think I already know...)

Brian <usenet1@mangym utt.com.invalid-remove-this-part> exclaimed in <Zkwjb.572172$c F.246247@rwcrns c53>:
[color=blue]
> Tina Holmboe wrote:[color=green]
>> Salagir <Salagir@jeruCI TEDELESPACE.org .invalid> exclaimed in
>> <3f8e545b$0$104 28$626a54ce@new s.free.fr>:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Yeah, did everyone forgot what the "home" key is for ?[/color]
>>
>> You are, in other words, quite convinced that (a) all UAs have such
>> functionality,[/color]
>
> Is there a ua that does not have the ability to go to the top of a page?[/color]

Good question. I can find no such method on my T68i. Can we be certain
that ALL UAs have this function built in ?

Going back, or forward, in the browsing history - yes. Going to the start
of the document ? I don't know. It is difficult to say whether all
UAs in use have that function built in.

So perhaps we shouldn't dismiss the idea; it doesn't really do any
harm to anyone.

--
- Tina Holmboe Greytower Technologies
tina@greytower. net http://www.greytower.net/
[+46] 0708 557 905

**Brian** · Jul 20 '05, 04:17 PM

Re: Bad? Or not? (But I think I already know...)

Tina Holmboe wrote:[color=blue]
> Brian <usenet1@mangym utt.com.invalid-remove-this-part> exclaimed in
> <Zkwjb.572172$c F.246247@rwcrns c53>:
>[color=green]
>> Is there a ua that does not have the ability to go to the top of
>> a page?[/color]
>
> Good question. I can find no such method on my T68i.[/color]

Wow. So, you load a page on the mobile phone, read the first few
lines, then scroll down. You get to the bottom. You want to read the
first few lines again, but you can't. The T68i does not permit you
any means to return to the top of the page. Is that actually correct?
That is one piss-poor browser they put in there.
[color=blue]
> Can we be certain that ALL UAs have this function built in ?[/color]

Perhaps all but Ericsson's.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

**Philipp Lenssen** · Jul 20 '05, 04:17 PM

Re: Bad? Or not? (But I think I already know...)

The Plankmeister wrote:
[color=blue]
> Is doing this bad:
>[/color]
[color=blue]
>
> <span><h3>Som e title or other...</h3><a href="#pagetop" >back to
> top</a></span>
>[/color]

"Back to top" links don't make sense in the context of HTML. They are
especially worse inside a heading, but that's just on top. So yes it's
sort of bad, if you care about HTML, accessibility, usability etc.

--
Google Blogoscoped

Google Blogoscoped

http://blog.outer-court.com

A daily news blog and community covering Google, search, and technology.

**Philipp Lenssen** · Jul 20 '05, 04:17 PM

Re: Bad? Or not? (But I think I already know...)

Tina Holmboe wrote:
[color=blue]
>
> Good question. I can find no such method on my T68i. Can we be
> certain that ALL UAs have this function built in ?
>
> Going back, or forward, in the browsing history - yes. Going to the
> start of the document ? I don't know. It is difficult to say
> whether all UAs in use have that function built in.
>
> So perhaps we shouldn't dismiss the idea; it doesn't really do any
> harm to anyone.[/color]

Neither does "click here" do much harm. But just as "top of page" it's
just plain silly to include it in most circumstances, especially with
varying browser heights. Yucca pointed out some more.

--
Google Blogoscoped

Google Blogoscoped

http://blog.outer-court.com

A daily news blog and community covering Google, search, and technology.

**Alan J. Flavell** · Jul 20 '05, 04:17 PM

Re: Bad? Or not? (But I think I already know...)

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003, Philipp Lenssen wrote:
[color=blue]
> Neither does "click here" do much harm. But just as "top of page" it's
> just plain silly to include it in most circumstances,[/color]

I perceive them (rightly or wrongly) as indicative of a patronising
attitude by the author. Personally, I don't like that. I like authors
who do me the courtesy of treating me as an equal, even if I rate to
learn something new from them: and I try to apply that approach myself
too. (Not that it always works out successfully, for sure, but that's
the plan.)

Perhaps it's just because I learned the principle of "don't mention
the mechanics"[1], and took it to heart.

The fact that such mechanical crutches can often be misguided in
detail is not the chief problem: they ought not to be there at all,
because there shouldn't be any need for them (if there is, that's a
browser shortcoming, not something which content authors ought to be
expected to remedy).

I say let the content stand on its own feet. I wouldn't want every
mushroom recipe, hillwalking guide, train spotter's photo gallery etc.
etc to turn into an alternative browser-use tutorial.

I suspect we agree on the general principles, even if we differ on
some points of detail, no?

cheers

[1] http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/