mark up for restaurant menu

[Eric B. Bednarz]

Re: OT chowder

Brian <usenet1@mangym utt.com.invalid-remove-this-part> writes:
[color=blue]
> Barbara de Zoete wrote:[color=green]
>> (although I have no clue, not even from the description, what Clam
>> Chowder is ;-) ).[/color]
>
> A cream-based soup[1]. Clam Chowder is a tradional New England
> (north-east US) recipe.[/color]

So that's what happened to Brucie's clam? I'm depressed. :)


--
"XML is a giant step in no direction at all."
--Erik Naggum

[Brian]

Re: mark up for restaurant menu

Nick Kew wrote:[color=blue]
> In article <VPhhb.713418$Y N5.607723@sccrn sc01> Brian wrote:
>[color=green]
>> I'm thinking of using a dl list.[/color]
>
> IMO that makes more sense than other suggestions in this thread,[/color]

Thanks, I'm glad my idea wasn't completely daft. I'm leaning toward using
dl, and have done 1 menu that way.
[color=blue]
> I'd just make one refinement: put classes on your DD elements, so
> you can style them. That way you can put the prices alongside the
> items, as in the text at the start of your post.[/color]

I did that for the dd element that contains the prices. By floating
the dt left, Mozilla displays the whole thing much as it looks in the
menu, which is rather nice. But I am not yet ready for any serious
styling.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[Eric Cartman]

Re: OT chowder

Eric B. Bednarz <bednarz@fahr-zur-hoelle.org> wrote in message news:<m3u16hg7q 7.fsf@email.bed narz.nl>...[color=blue]
> Brian <usenet1@mangym utt.com.invalid-remove-this-part> writes:
>[color=green]
> > Barbara de Zoete wrote:[color=darkred]
> >> (although I have no clue, not even from the description, what Clam
> >> Chowder is ;-) ).[/color]
> >
> > A cream-based soup[1]. Clam Chowder is a tradional New England
> > (north-east US) recipe.[/color]
>
> So that's what happened to Brucie's clam? I'm depressed. :)[/color]

Best chowder I have had was at Pier 39 in San Francisco, closely
followed by John Hancocks in Harvard, Boston. Hmm could eat some now
UK is getting cold and wet.

[Barry Pearson]

Re: mark up for restaurant menu

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:[color=blue]
> Brian <usenet1@mangym utt.com.invalid-remove-this-part> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> I have to markup a couple of restaurant menus.[/color][/color]
[snip][color=blue]
> Alternatively, you could make the menu a table, with the different
> parts (name, price info, description) as cells in a row. But you
> probably wouldn't like the default presentation of a table element in
> this case.[/color]

Isn't this semantically a table? Perhaps (I'm not sure) with the name of the
item the title (of the row)?

I recently wrestled with a list, of a slightly different type (a set of
questions & answers), and eventually after a lot of (philosophical! ) debate
came to the conclusion that it wasn't a definition list, but made sense as a
2-cell-wide table.

[snip][color=blue]
> Do you provide a _definition_ for the term "clam chowder", i.e.
> describe what something needs to be in order to be called "clam
> chowder"? No. And besides, the default rendering of <dl> elements is
> not very good, _and_ it is difficult if not currently impossible to
> tune the rendering well in CSS.[/color]

In order to help make a decision in my case above, I rendered the DL in
tabular format via a CSS. The CSS I used included:

..description dl { line-height: 1.2em; text-align: left; }
..description dt { font-style: italic; }
..description dd { position: relative; top: -1.2em; left: 3em; }

The details don't matter - the trick was to move the DD upwards.

But - I'm sticking to the original table!

--
Barry Pearson

http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/

http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/

http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/

[Peter Foti]

Re: mark up for restaurant menu

"Brian" <usenet1@mangym utt.com.invalid-remove-this-part> wrote in message
news:%Jlhb.7149 24$YN5.611724@s ccrnsc01...[color=blue]
> Peter Foti wrote:
>[color=green]
> > style can be applied to <div> elements with better results than to
> > <p> elements.[/color]
>
> Styles can be applied to <p> just as easily as to <div>. Perhaps you
> mean that <div> has not styles applied by (most? all?) browsers, so
> you start with a clean slate when you use <div>.[/color]

Yes, but due to browser bugs, styling <p> elements can sometimes yeild
unexpected results. In my experience, styling a <div> is more likely to
produce the expected results than styling a <p>.

-Pete

[Eric B. Bednarz]

Re: mark up for restaurant menu

Brian <usenet1@mangym utt.com.invalid-remove-this-part> writes:
[color=blue]
> I have to markup a couple of restaurant menus. Two examples follow:
>
> Clam Chowder Cup 3.25 / Bowl 6.95
> Thick New England-style clam chowder with [...][/color]
[color=blue]
> Mixed Greens Starter 3.50 / Entrée 6.25
> Tossed-to-order with your choice of any of [...][/color]
[color=blue]
> I'm thinking of using a dl list.[/color]

It's not wrong, in the sense that the prose of the HTML 4 spec actually
proposes ambiguous usage of 'definition' lists. But IMNSHO that's more
of a reason to avoid it altogether, just like ACRONYM. No semantics are
preferable over confusion.
[color=blue]
> Any thoughts about this? It seems to make more sense than a table to me.[/color]

Why? I wouldn't know what's wrong with

<table summary="Overvi ew, prices and description of available dishes">
<tr>
<th id="cc">Clam Chowder</th>
<td headers="cc">Cu p 3.25 / Bowl 6.95</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td headers="cc" colspan="2">Thi ck New England-style...</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th id="mg">Mixed Greens</th>
<td headers="mg">St arter 3.50 / Entrée 6.25</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td headers="mg" colspan="2">Tos sed-to-order with your...</td>
</tr>
</table>

for example. You might wish to improve the summary, though. ;)

--
"The average usefulness of a thread is inversely proportional to the
cube of the number of groups it is posted to."
--Korpela's 42nd Law about Usenet

[Brian]

Re: mark up for restaurant menu

Peter Foti wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>>Styles can be applied to <p> just as easily as to <div>. Perhaps you
>>mean that <div> has not styles applied by (most? all?) browsers, so
>>you start with a clean slate when you use <div>.[/color]
>
> Yes, but due to browser bugs, styling <p> elements can sometimes yeild
> unexpected results.[/color]

Such as?
[color=blue]
> In my experience, styling a <div> is more likely to
> produce the expected results than styling a <p>.[/color]

As I said, that may be true because <p> has browser styles attached to
it, while <div> does not.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[Brian]

Re: mark up for restaurant menu

Eric B. Bednarz wrote:[color=blue]
> Brian <usenet1@mangym utt.com.invalid-remove-this-part> writes:
>[color=green]
>>I have to markup a couple of restaurant menu.
>>I'm thinking of using a dl list.[/color]
>
> It's not wrong, in the sense that the prose of the HTML 4 spec actually
> proposes ambiguous usage of 'definition' lists. But IMNSHO that's more
> of a reason to avoid it altogether, just like ACRONYM. No semantics are
> preferable over confusion.[/color]

Hm. I'll have to think about this issue. I was worrying about what
alternative browsers (e.g., an aural device) would make of the dl.
[color=blue][color=green]
>>Any thoughts about this? It seems to make more sense than a table to me.[/color]
>
> Why? I wouldn't know what's wrong with
>
> <table summary="Overvi ew, prices and description of available dishes">
> <tr>
> <th id="cc">Clam Chowder</th>
> <td headers="cc">Cu p 3.25 / Bowl 6.95</td>
> </tr>
> <tr>
> <td headers="cc" colspan="2">Thi ck New England-style...</td>[/color]

One could certainly argue that this is tabular data, and mark it up as
you have. There is one problem that I discovered after posting the
first message in this thread: Some items have additional price info,
e.g., soup and salad price, while other items (main dishes) do not.
It is the database developer in me that winces at the idea of a table
column where only 10% of the rows contain data.

The dl list allows some flexibility here, because a dt entry can have
1, 2 or 3 dd entries following it. On a less crucial level, the dl
would be more flexible in presentation than a table would allow.
This, however, is not a deal breaker.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[Peter Foti]

Re: mark up for restaurant menu

"Brian" <usenet1@mangym utt.com.invalid-remove-this-part> wrote in message
news:k4Chb.8188 8$%h1.87062@scc rnsc02...[color=blue]
> Peter Foti wrote:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> >>Styles can be applied to <p> just as easily as to <div>. Perhaps you
> >>mean that <div> has not styles applied by (most? all?) browsers, so
> >>you start with a clean slate when you use <div>.[/color]
> >
> > Yes, but due to browser bugs, styling <p> elements can sometimes yeild
> > unexpected results.[/color]
>
> Such as?[/color]

None (in particular) come to mind off the top of my head, but I'm sure a
Google search might provide some results.
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > In my experience, styling a <div> is more likely to
> > produce the expected results than styling a <p>.[/color]
>
> As I said, that may be true because <p> has browser styles attached to
> it, while <div> does not.[/color]

Very likely. Though, I don't think that's necessarily always the case.
Peter

[Peter Foti]

Re: mark up for restaurant menu

"Brian" <usenet1@mangym utt.com.invalid-remove-this-part> wrote in message
news:3eChb.7202 86$YN5.643573@s ccrnsc01...[color=blue]
> Eric B. Bednarz wrote:[color=green]
> > Brian <usenet1@mangym utt.com.invalid-remove-this-part> writes:
> >[color=darkred]
> >>I have to markup a couple of restaurant menu.
> >>I'm thinking of using a dl list.[/color]
> >
> > Why? I wouldn't know what's wrong with
> >
> > <table summary="Overvi ew, prices and description of available dishes">
> > <tr>
> > <th id="cc">Clam Chowder</th>
> > <td headers="cc">Cu p 3.25 / Bowl 6.95</td>
> > </tr>
> > <tr>
> > <td headers="cc" colspan="2">Thi ck New England-style...</td>[/color]
>
> One could certainly argue that this is tabular data, and mark it up as
> you have. There is one problem that I discovered after posting the
> first message in this thread: Some items have additional price info,
> e.g., soup and salad price, while other items (main dishes) do not.
> It is the database developer in me that winces at the idea of a table
> column where only 10% of the rows contain data.[/color]

You *could* consider this a table of tables. That is, a large table whose
contents are smaller tables of data:
<table summary="Overvi ew, prices and description of available dishes">
<tr><td>
<table summary="Clam Chowder">
<tr>
<th id="cc">Clam Chowder</th>
<td headers="cc">Cu p 3.25 / Bowl 6.95</td>
</tr>
<!-- The following row is optional... may not exist for each
item -->
<tr>
<td headers="cc" colspan="2">Thi ck New England-style...</td>
</tr>
</table>
</td></tr>
<tr><td>
<table summary="Ceasar Salad">
<tr>
<th id="ceasarsalad ">Ceasar Salad</th>
<td headers="ceasar salad">Bowl 6.95</td>
</tr>
</table>
</td></tr>
<!-- etc., etc., ... -->
</table>

However, I still prefer:

<div id="ClamChowder ">
<h2>Clam Chowder</h2>
<div class="price">C up $3.25 / Bowl $6.95</div>
<div class="desc">Th ick New England-style clam chowder with clams, diced
onion and celery, bacon, red bell pepper, but no potatoes!</div>
</div>

<div id="CeasarSalad ">
<h2>Ceasar Salad</h2>
<div class="price">B owl $6.95</div>
</div>


Either method should be acceptable (as is the <dl> approach).
Regards,
Peter

[Nick Kew]

Re: mark up for restaurant menu

In article <Exqhb.78656$%h 1.81383@sccrnsc 02>, one of infinite monkeys
at the keyboard of Brian <usenet1@mangym utt.com.invalid-remove-this-part> wrote:
[color=blue]
> I did that for the dd element that contains the prices. By floating
> the dt left, Mozilla displays the whole thing much as it looks in the
> menu, which is rather nice. But I am not yet ready for any serious
> styling.[/color]

Doesn't matter. The point is that your idea has dd elements in two
distinct roles: one price, one general description. So marking them
up as <dd class="price"> and <dd class="desc"> is clearly right (if we
accept, as I do, that dl/dt/dd is a suitable structure for this).

The fact that you can then style class .price and .desc each in its
own way - for example putting .price to the right of the <dt\. and
..desc below - is not directly relevant to your markup. It's just a
benefit of doing it right. You can take advantage of it by
(re)designing the look and feel of your pages whenever you want.

--
Nick Kew

In urgent need of paying work - see http://www.webthing.com/~nick/cv.html

[Brian]

Re: mark up for restaurant menu

Nick Kew wrote:[color=blue]
>
> Doesn't matter. The point is that your idea has dd elements in two
> distinct roles: one price, one general description. So marking them
> up as <dd class="price"> and <dd class="desc"> is clearly right[/color]

Done. Each dd element has its class attribute set. Thanks for your input.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me