Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

[SoloCDM]

How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?

*************** *************** *************** *************** *********
Signed,
SoloCDM

[EightNineThree]

Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width


"SoloCDM" <deedsmis@aculi nk.net> wrote in message
news:3F5D18EB.1 050002@aculink. net...[color=blue]
> How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?[/color]

Why would you want to do that?

Page layout should be specified in terms of percentages, which allow the
pages to be flexible. This allows for a more efficient use of screen real
estate and puts the user back in control of his or her web surfing
experience.

Usability studies substantiate very clearly that this is a preference of web
users. It is unfortunately a realization that has not soaked into a lot of
the largest companies in the world.

Human Factors International

http://www.humanfactors.com/downloads/oct022.htm

Real World Browser Size Stats

http://evolt.org/article/Real_World_Browser_Size_Stats_Pat_II/20/2297/index.html

Getting a perfect fit

http://webdesignclinic.com/ezine/v1i9/perfectfit/index.html

Sizing Up The Browsers

http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/99/41/index3a.html

What size monitor screen or browser window should I design for?

http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?AnySizeDesign

--
Karl Core

Charles Sweeney says my sig is fine as it is.

[SoloCDM]

Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

EightNineThree wrote:
[color=blue]
> "SoloCDM" <deedsmis@aculi nk.net> wrote in message
> news:3F5D18EB.1 050002@aculink. net...
>[color=green]
>>How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?[/color]
>
> Why would you want to do that?
>
> Page layout should be specified in terms of percentages, which allow the
> pages to be flexible. This allows for a more efficient use of screen real
> estate and puts the user back in control of his or her web surfing
> experience.
>
> Usability studies substantiate very clearly that this is a preference of web
> users. It is unfortunately a realization that has not soaked into a lot of
> the largest companies in the world.
>
> Human Factors International
> http://www.humanfactors.com/downloads/oct022.htm
>
> Real World Browser Size Stats
>
> http://evolt.org/article/Real_World_...297/index.html
>
> Getting a perfect fit
>
> http://webdesignclinic.com/ezine/v1i...fit/index.html
>
> Sizing Up The Browsers
>
> http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/99/41/index3a.html
>
> What size monitor screen or browser window should I design for?
>
> http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?AnySizeDesign[/color]

Some things look sloppy if spread out. Even some of your link
references use control over the width of their web pages, which
clearly contradicts their preaching.

*************** *************** *************** *************** *********
Signed,
SoloCDM

[Stan Brown]

Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

In article <3F5D18EB.10500 02@aculink.net> in
comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html, SoloCDM <deedsmis@aculi nk.net>
wrote:[color=blue]
>How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?[/color]

Print it and distribute the paper.

Otherwise, expect that people will see it at different widths. This
is a good thing, not a bad thing as you seem to think.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA

http://OakRoadSystems.com/

HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

[EightNineThree]

Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width


"SoloCDM" <deedsmis@aculi nk.net> wrote in message
news:3F5D2F94.4 090704@aculink. net...[color=blue]
> EightNineThree wrote:
>[color=green]
> > "SoloCDM" <deedsmis@aculi nk.net> wrote in message
> > news:3F5D18EB.1 050002@aculink. net...
> >[color=darkred]
> >>How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?[/color]
> >
> > Why would you want to do that?
> >
> > Page layout should be specified in terms of percentages, which allow the
> > pages to be flexible. This allows for a more efficient use of screen[/color][/color]
real[color=blue][color=green]
> > estate and puts the user back in control of his or her web surfing
> > experience.
> >
> > Usability studies substantiate very clearly that this is a preference of[/color][/color]
web[color=blue][color=green]
> > users. It is unfortunately a realization that has not soaked into a lot[/color][/color]
of[color=blue][color=green]
> > the largest companies in the world.
> >[/color][/color]
<snip>[color=blue]
>
> Some things look sloppy if spread out. Even some of your link
> references use control over the width of their web pages, which
> clearly contradicts their preaching.[/color]

I guess you didn't read my post.
"Usability studies substantiate very clearly that this is a preference of
web users."

Do you have any empirical evidence to contradict this?


--
Karl Core

Charles Sweeney says my sig is fine as it is.

[Stephen Poley]

Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 19:40:36 -0600, SoloCDM <deedsmis@aculi nk.net>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>Some things look sloppy if spread out.[/color]

You mean if the window is rather wide for the selected font size? Then
the user is free to make his/her window a bit narrower. That only takes
a moment. But if your fixed page width is too large for the reader's
screen, he/she is stuck.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

[OJ]

Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

"EightNineThree " <eightninethree @REMOVEeightnin ethree.com> wrote in message news:<bjj6tg$n6 l$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.co m>...[color=blue]
> "SoloCDM" <deedsmis@aculi nk.net> wrote in message
> news:3F5D18EB.1 050002@aculink. net...[color=green]
> > How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?[/color]
>
> Why would you want to do that?[/color]

Why can't you answer peoples questions without preaching to them? You
don't know either the context or the application.

If you don't know the answer, stay out.

oj
[color=blue]
>
> Page layout should be specified in terms of percentages, which allow the
> pages to be flexible. This allows for a more efficient use of screen real
> estate and puts the user back in control of his or her web surfing
> experience.
>
> Usability studies substantiate very clearly that this is a preference of web
> users. It is unfortunately a realization that has not soaked into a lot of
> the largest companies in the world.
>
> Human Factors International
> http://www.humanfactors.com/downloads/oct022.htm
>
>
>
> Real World Browser Size Stats
>
> http://evolt.org/article/Real_World_...297/index.html
>
>
>
> Getting a perfect fit
>
> http://webdesignclinic.com/ezine/v1i...fit/index.html
>
>
>
> Sizing Up The Browsers
>
> http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/99/41/index3a.html
>
>
>
> What size monitor screen or browser window should I design for?
>
> http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?AnySizeDesign[/color]

[Brian]

Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

OJ wrote:[color=blue]
> "EightNineThree " <eightninethree @REMOVEeightnin ethree.com> wrote in message news:<bjj6tg$n6 l$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.co m>...
>[color=green]
>>"SoloCDM" <deedsmis@aculi nk.net> wrote in message
>>news:3F5D18EB .1050002@aculin k.net...
>>[color=darkred]
>>>How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?[/color]
>>
>>Why would you want to do that?[/color]
>
> Why can't you answer peoples questions without preaching to them?[/color]

This is not a helpdesk. People raise issues. Others discuss them.
We've seen plenty of fixed designs, either from posts here, or simply
in our travels on the www. They are (nearly?) always unnecessary and
create problems when the browsing situation is a little different than
the one imagined by the designer.
[color=blue]
> You don't know either the context or the application.[/color]

That's because the op didn't specify them. If there's a reason, then
the op should respond and explain them. Mind, I'm hard-pressed to
think of a reason for fixing the width of an "entire web page."
[color=blue]
> If you don't know the answer, stay out.[/color]

Welcome to Usent.

[remainder of excessive quoting snipped]

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[Jim Dabell]

Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

OJ wrote:
[color=blue]
> "EightNineThree " <eightninethree @REMOVEeightnin ethree.com> wrote in
> message news:<bjj6tg$n6 l$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.co m>...[color=green]
>> "SoloCDM" <deedsmis@aculi nk.net> wrote in message
>> news:3F5D18EB.1 050002@aculink. net...[color=darkred]
>> > How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?[/color]
>>
>> Why would you want to do that?[/color]
>
> Why can't you answer peoples questions without preaching to them?[/color]

What about the following scenario:
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>> > How do I shoot myself in the foot?[/color]
>>
>> Put the bullet in the gun, aim, and squeeze the trigger.[/color][/color]

When somebody asks something that sounds like a bad idea, generally, you
should point that out to them instead of deliberately letting them screw
up.

[color=blue]
> You don't know either the context or the application.[/color]

That's probably why Karl asked:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Why would you want to do that?[/color][/color]

[color=blue]
> If you don't know the answer, stay out.[/color]

I didn't see you answer the question either, but I don't see anybody telling
you to stay out.


--
Jim Dabell

[Alan J. Flavell]

Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

On Tue, Sep 9, OJ inscribed on the eternal scroll:
[color=blue]
> Why can't you answer peoples questions without preaching to them?[/color]

Welcome to usenet.
[color=blue]
> You
> don't know either the context or the application.[/color]

Maybe you hadn't noticed, but this isn't misc.misc, it's
comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html: eacn of those elements has a
reason for being there and sets the context of the discourse.
[color=blue]
> If you don't know the answer, stay out.[/color]

Welcome to the killfile.

[Peter Stokes]

Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

SoloCDM <deedsmis@aculi nk.net> wrote in message news:<3F5D18EB. 1050002@aculink .net>...[color=blue]
> How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?
>
> *************** *************** *************** *************** *********
> Signed,
> SoloCDM[/color]

To keep your entire page at a predetermined width, set up a table to
the required width and put the page contents inside. It doesn't have
to be a single table, you can run a succession of tables each to the
required width (heading, intro, body text, footer, etc, down the
page). This has worked for me on several sites.

I take on board everything the naysayers have hit you with about
leaving it to the viewer to decide the width they view at; however, I
have also seen sites whose designs have been destroyed by width
expansion.

In my (purely empirical/anecdotal) experience, the majority of
computer users are not sophisticated enough (or care enough about what
they're looking at or interested enough to take the trouble - take
your pick) to keep adjusting their window size in an effort to find
what the page designer was trying to achieve. They have their browser
set to screen size and take the pages as they come. I also think it
somewhat arrogant of designers to expect users to change their
settings in order to achieve the best design view.

Why shouldn't we designers give what we believe to be the best
presentation of our work, or more often our clients'
products/services? Surely we can have the same freedom of expression
as anyone else.

peter stokes

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width


"EightNineThree " <eightninethree @REMOVEeightnin ethree.com> wrote in message
news:bjj6tg$n6l $1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.co m...[color=blue]
>
> "SoloCDM" <deedsmis@aculi nk.net> wrote in message
> news:3F5D18EB.1 050002@aculink. net...[color=green]
> > How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?[/color]
>
> Why would you want to do that?
>
> Page layout should be specified in terms of percentages, which allow the
> pages to be flexible. This allows for a more efficient use of screen real
> estate and puts the user back in control of his or her web surfing
> experience.
>
> Usability studies substantiate very clearly that this is a preference of[/color]
web[color=blue]
> users. It is unfortunately a realization that has not soaked into a lot of
> the largest companies in the world.[/color]

<span style="flame" intention="sinc ere">
One wonders how readers of books and magazines have managed all these years!
Has there ever been a call by the magazine reading community for publishers
just to mail them sequences of words with annotations as to their respective
roles, so that the readers could produce their own mock-ups to enjoy?

Believe it or not, many producers of web-based material are trying to
provide a specific and approximately consistent appearance to people having
one of several current-day browers (including Netscape 4.x, etc.). The small
portion of the population that wants to shrink the browser to a window 200
pixels wide and 600 high, or 1000 wide and 100 high, and still have a
legible presentation is not really a fundamental target.
</span>

[Isofarro]

Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

Harlan Messinger wrote:
[color=blue]
> <span style="flame" intention="sinc ere">
> One wonders how readers of books and magazines have managed all these
> years![/color]

The limitation of the print industry is not a limitation of the web. Paper
is cut at fixed size where the width is decided at printing time. This
"event" happens much later on the web - or sometimes browser window width
is irrelevant to the particular user. Imposing a print limitation on the
web just because it exists in print is short-sighted and counter to the
web's flexibility and strengths.
[color=blue]
> Has there ever been a call by the magazine reading community for
> publishers just to mail them sequences of words with annotations as to
> their respective roles,[/color]

Considering the more accurate analogy is about editors and writers on one
side, and printing houses on the other - yes. There has been a time where
editors and writers did not define how a page was printed, and instead they
defined (by marking up) which parts of the text corresponded to which
logical structure, and the printer/renderer used a stylesheet to translate
the logical structure into what inks and font-faces were used. On the web
rendering time happens within the user's browser - so the user's browser is
effectively the print/render process.

This separation is still in effect within the print industry - as evidenced
by novels and newspapers. Novels tend to come out as hardback first -
larger page size, larger font size, larger margins and paddings. Then a few
months later a paperback edition is released. And funny enough, the author
doesn't have to write the entire book out again because of the paperback
edition - they reuse the same copy and add a different presentation on top
- a presentation more appropriate for the smaller paperback page sizes.

Newspapers tend to syndicate columns. The columnist does not retype their
column for each newspaper it is syndicated on - she just transfers the copy
which allows the newspaper printers to add their custom styles to the copy.

--
Iso.
FAQs: http://html-faq.com http://alt-html.org http://allmyfaqs.com/
Recommended Hosting: http://www.affordablehost.com/
Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org/

[Greg Schmidt]

Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 19:40:36 -0600, SoloCDM <deedsmis@aculi nk.net>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>Some things look sloppy if spread out.[/color]

Such things are clearly candidates for "max-width" settings, preferably
specified in em units. It is perfectly possible to have a fluid layout
that doesn't spread out beyond a certain point, but still contracts
properly when someone is using, for example, a PDA.
[color=blue]
>Even some of your link
>references use control over the width of their web pages, which
>clearly contradicts their preaching.[/color]

Yes, I didn't bother to read anything that these sites had to say. I
did pay attention to the clueful ones.

--
Greg Schmidt (gregs@trawna.c om)
Trawna Publications (http://www.trawna.com/)

[Greg Schmidt]

Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:19:58 -0400, "Harlan Messinger"
<h.messinger@co mcast.net> wrote:
[color=blue]
><span style="flame" intention="sinc ere">
>One wonders how readers of books and magazines have managed all these years!
>Has there ever been a call by the magazine reading community for publishers
>just to mail them sequences of words with annotations as to their respective
>roles, so that the readers could produce their own mock-ups to enjoy?[/color]

For many years, the only fastener we had was the nail. We used it by
pounding it hard with a hammer. One day, someone invented the screw.
Screws work best if they are *not* pounded hard with a hammer. Screws
are superior to nails in many ways, although there are still places that
nails are best. Both are trying to solve very similar problems, but the
ways in which we apply them are very different. Builders who wanted to
start using screws but refused to learn how to use the screwdriver
presumably didn't last very long.

Paper used to be the best way to present the material. In some cases it
still is. The web is very different from paper, and the sooner people
realize it, the better off we'll all be.
[color=blue]
>Believe it or not, many producers of web-based material are trying to
>provide a specific and approximately consistent appearance to people having
>one of several current-day browers (including Netscape 4.x, etc.). The small
>portion of the population that wants to shrink the browser to a window 200
>pixels wide and 600 high, or 1000 wide and 100 high, and still have a
>legible presentation is not really a fundamental target.
></span>[/color]

Many producers of web-based material are former (or current) desktop
publishing experts who are trying to shoehorn a new medium into a
familiar shape to avoid having to learn something new. The very real
portion of the population that wants to use a browser window less than
800 pixels wide and not have to scroll horizontally to read the
information, and the small but growing portion of the population that is
using PDAs with screens less than 600 pixels wide are targets that are
ignored by these desktop publishing gurus, to the detriment of the
companies that hire said gurus to design their online presence.

And I'd wager that the percentage of people still using Netscape 4.x is
not much larger than the percentage of people who want to use a 200
pixel wide browser window. Netscape 4.x is *not* a "current-day"
browser, it is several years and several versions old. All
"current-day" browsers are quite capable of providing a "specific and
approximately consistent appearance" of an attractive liquid design, in
the hands of a talented designer.

--
Greg Schmidt (gregs@trawna.c om)
Trawna Publications (http://www.trawna.com/)