Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

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  • SoloCDM

    Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

    How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?

    *************** *************** *************** *************** *********
    Signed,
    SoloCDM

  • EightNineThree

    #2
    Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width


    "SoloCDM" <deedsmis@aculi nk.net> wrote in message
    news:3F5D18EB.1 050002@aculink. net...[color=blue]
    > How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?[/color]

    Why would you want to do that?

    Page layout should be specified in terms of percentages, which allow the
    pages to be flexible. This allows for a more efficient use of screen real
    estate and puts the user back in control of his or her web surfing
    experience.

    Usability studies substantiate very clearly that this is a preference of web
    users. It is unfortunately a realization that has not soaked into a lot of
    the largest companies in the world.

    Human Factors International




    Real World Browser Size Stats

    Founded in 1998, evolt.org was one of the oldest Web development communities in existence. Through our mailing lists, articles, and archives, we have strived to work together in sharing our collective knowledge to improve the Web for all of us.




    Getting a perfect fit





    Sizing Up The Browsers





    What size monitor screen or browser window should I design for?






    --
    Karl Core

    Charles Sweeney says my sig is fine as it is.



    Comment

    • SoloCDM

      #3
      Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

      EightNineThree wrote:
      [color=blue]
      > "SoloCDM" <deedsmis@aculi nk.net> wrote in message
      > news:3F5D18EB.1 050002@aculink. net...
      >[color=green]
      >>How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?[/color]
      >
      > Why would you want to do that?
      >
      > Page layout should be specified in terms of percentages, which allow the
      > pages to be flexible. This allows for a more efficient use of screen real
      > estate and puts the user back in control of his or her web surfing
      > experience.
      >
      > Usability studies substantiate very clearly that this is a preference of web
      > users. It is unfortunately a realization that has not soaked into a lot of
      > the largest companies in the world.
      >
      > Human Factors International
      > http://www.humanfactors.com/downloads/oct022.htm
      >
      > Real World Browser Size Stats
      >
      > http://evolt.org/article/Real_World_...297/index.html
      >
      > Getting a perfect fit
      >
      > http://webdesignclinic.com/ezine/v1i...fit/index.html
      >
      > Sizing Up The Browsers
      >
      > http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/99/41/index3a.html
      >
      > What size monitor screen or browser window should I design for?
      >
      > http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?AnySizeDesign[/color]

      Some things look sloppy if spread out. Even some of your link
      references use control over the width of their web pages, which
      clearly contradicts their preaching.

      *************** *************** *************** *************** *********
      Signed,
      SoloCDM

      Comment

      • Stan Brown

        #4
        Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

        In article <3F5D18EB.10500 02@aculink.net> in
        comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html, SoloCDM <deedsmis@aculi nk.net>
        wrote:[color=blue]
        >How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?[/color]

        Print it and distribute the paper.

        Otherwise, expect that people will see it at different widths. This
        is a good thing, not a bad thing as you seem to think.

        --
        Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA

        HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
        validator: http://validator.w3.org/
        CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
        2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
        validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

        Comment

        • EightNineThree

          #5
          Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width


          "SoloCDM" <deedsmis@aculi nk.net> wrote in message
          news:3F5D2F94.4 090704@aculink. net...[color=blue]
          > EightNineThree wrote:
          >[color=green]
          > > "SoloCDM" <deedsmis@aculi nk.net> wrote in message
          > > news:3F5D18EB.1 050002@aculink. net...
          > >[color=darkred]
          > >>How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?[/color]
          > >
          > > Why would you want to do that?
          > >
          > > Page layout should be specified in terms of percentages, which allow the
          > > pages to be flexible. This allows for a more efficient use of screen[/color][/color]
          real[color=blue][color=green]
          > > estate and puts the user back in control of his or her web surfing
          > > experience.
          > >
          > > Usability studies substantiate very clearly that this is a preference of[/color][/color]
          web[color=blue][color=green]
          > > users. It is unfortunately a realization that has not soaked into a lot[/color][/color]
          of[color=blue][color=green]
          > > the largest companies in the world.
          > >[/color][/color]
          <snip>[color=blue]
          >
          > Some things look sloppy if spread out. Even some of your link
          > references use control over the width of their web pages, which
          > clearly contradicts their preaching.[/color]

          I guess you didn't read my post.
          "Usability studies substantiate very clearly that this is a preference of
          web users."

          Do you have any empirical evidence to contradict this?


          --
          Karl Core

          Charles Sweeney says my sig is fine as it is.


          Comment

          • Stephen Poley

            #6
            Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

            On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 19:40:36 -0600, SoloCDM <deedsmis@aculi nk.net>
            wrote:
            [color=blue]
            >Some things look sloppy if spread out.[/color]

            You mean if the window is rather wide for the selected font size? Then
            the user is free to make his/her window a bit narrower. That only takes
            a moment. But if your fixed page width is too large for the reader's
            screen, he/she is stuck.

            --
            Stephen Poley


            Comment

            • OJ

              #7
              Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

              "EightNineThree " <eightninethree @REMOVEeightnin ethree.com> wrote in message news:<bjj6tg$n6 l$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.co m>...[color=blue]
              > "SoloCDM" <deedsmis@aculi nk.net> wrote in message
              > news:3F5D18EB.1 050002@aculink. net...[color=green]
              > > How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?[/color]
              >
              > Why would you want to do that?[/color]

              Why can't you answer peoples questions without preaching to them? You
              don't know either the context or the application.

              If you don't know the answer, stay out.

              oj
              [color=blue]
              >
              > Page layout should be specified in terms of percentages, which allow the
              > pages to be flexible. This allows for a more efficient use of screen real
              > estate and puts the user back in control of his or her web surfing
              > experience.
              >
              > Usability studies substantiate very clearly that this is a preference of web
              > users. It is unfortunately a realization that has not soaked into a lot of
              > the largest companies in the world.
              >
              > Human Factors International
              > http://www.humanfactors.com/downloads/oct022.htm
              >
              >
              >
              > Real World Browser Size Stats
              >
              > http://evolt.org/article/Real_World_...297/index.html
              >
              >
              >
              > Getting a perfect fit
              >
              > http://webdesignclinic.com/ezine/v1i...fit/index.html
              >
              >
              >
              > Sizing Up The Browsers
              >
              > http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/99/41/index3a.html
              >
              >
              >
              > What size monitor screen or browser window should I design for?
              >
              > http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?AnySizeDesign[/color]

              Comment

              • Brian

                #8
                Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

                OJ wrote:[color=blue]
                > "EightNineThree " <eightninethree @REMOVEeightnin ethree.com> wrote in message news:<bjj6tg$n6 l$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.co m>...
                >[color=green]
                >>"SoloCDM" <deedsmis@aculi nk.net> wrote in message
                >>news:3F5D18EB .1050002@aculin k.net...
                >>[color=darkred]
                >>>How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?[/color]
                >>
                >>Why would you want to do that?[/color]
                >
                > Why can't you answer peoples questions without preaching to them?[/color]

                This is not a helpdesk. People raise issues. Others discuss them.
                We've seen plenty of fixed designs, either from posts here, or simply
                in our travels on the www. They are (nearly?) always unnecessary and
                create problems when the browsing situation is a little different than
                the one imagined by the designer.
                [color=blue]
                > You don't know either the context or the application.[/color]

                That's because the op didn't specify them. If there's a reason, then
                the op should respond and explain them. Mind, I'm hard-pressed to
                think of a reason for fixing the width of an "entire web page."
                [color=blue]
                > If you don't know the answer, stay out.[/color]

                Welcome to Usent.

                [remainder of excessive quoting snipped]

                --
                Brian
                follow the directions in my address to email me

                Comment

                • Jim Dabell

                  #9
                  Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

                  OJ wrote:
                  [color=blue]
                  > "EightNineThree " <eightninethree @REMOVEeightnin ethree.com> wrote in
                  > message news:<bjj6tg$n6 l$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.co m>...[color=green]
                  >> "SoloCDM" <deedsmis@aculi nk.net> wrote in message
                  >> news:3F5D18EB.1 050002@aculink. net...[color=darkred]
                  >> > How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?[/color]
                  >>
                  >> Why would you want to do that?[/color]
                  >
                  > Why can't you answer peoples questions without preaching to them?[/color]

                  What about the following scenario:
                  [color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
                  >> > How do I shoot myself in the foot?[/color]
                  >>
                  >> Put the bullet in the gun, aim, and squeeze the trigger.[/color][/color]

                  When somebody asks something that sounds like a bad idea, generally, you
                  should point that out to them instead of deliberately letting them screw
                  up.

                  [color=blue]
                  > You don't know either the context or the application.[/color]

                  That's probably why Karl asked:
                  [color=blue][color=green]
                  >> Why would you want to do that?[/color][/color]

                  [color=blue]
                  > If you don't know the answer, stay out.[/color]

                  I didn't see you answer the question either, but I don't see anybody telling
                  you to stay out.


                  --
                  Jim Dabell

                  Comment

                  • Alan J. Flavell

                    #10
                    Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

                    On Tue, Sep 9, OJ inscribed on the eternal scroll:
                    [color=blue]
                    > Why can't you answer peoples questions without preaching to them?[/color]

                    Welcome to usenet.
                    [color=blue]
                    > You
                    > don't know either the context or the application.[/color]

                    Maybe you hadn't noticed, but this isn't misc.misc, it's
                    comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html: eacn of those elements has a
                    reason for being there and sets the context of the discourse.
                    [color=blue]
                    > If you don't know the answer, stay out.[/color]

                    Welcome to the killfile.

                    Comment

                    • Peter Stokes

                      #11
                      Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

                      SoloCDM <deedsmis@aculi nk.net> wrote in message news:<3F5D18EB. 1050002@aculink .net>...[color=blue]
                      > How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?
                      >
                      > *************** *************** *************** *************** *********
                      > Signed,
                      > SoloCDM[/color]

                      To keep your entire page at a predetermined width, set up a table to
                      the required width and put the page contents inside. It doesn't have
                      to be a single table, you can run a succession of tables each to the
                      required width (heading, intro, body text, footer, etc, down the
                      page). This has worked for me on several sites.

                      I take on board everything the naysayers have hit you with about
                      leaving it to the viewer to decide the width they view at; however, I
                      have also seen sites whose designs have been destroyed by width
                      expansion.

                      In my (purely empirical/anecdotal) experience, the majority of
                      computer users are not sophisticated enough (or care enough about what
                      they're looking at or interested enough to take the trouble - take
                      your pick) to keep adjusting their window size in an effort to find
                      what the page designer was trying to achieve. They have their browser
                      set to screen size and take the pages as they come. I also think it
                      somewhat arrogant of designers to expect users to change their
                      settings in order to achieve the best design view.

                      Why shouldn't we designers give what we believe to be the best
                      presentation of our work, or more often our clients'
                      products/services? Surely we can have the same freedom of expression
                      as anyone else.

                      peter stokes

                      Comment

                      • Harlan Messinger

                        #12
                        Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width


                        "EightNineThree " <eightninethree @REMOVEeightnin ethree.com> wrote in message
                        news:bjj6tg$n6l $1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.co m...[color=blue]
                        >
                        > "SoloCDM" <deedsmis@aculi nk.net> wrote in message
                        > news:3F5D18EB.1 050002@aculink. net...[color=green]
                        > > How do I keep my entire web page at a fixed width?[/color]
                        >
                        > Why would you want to do that?
                        >
                        > Page layout should be specified in terms of percentages, which allow the
                        > pages to be flexible. This allows for a more efficient use of screen real
                        > estate and puts the user back in control of his or her web surfing
                        > experience.
                        >
                        > Usability studies substantiate very clearly that this is a preference of[/color]
                        web[color=blue]
                        > users. It is unfortunately a realization that has not soaked into a lot of
                        > the largest companies in the world.[/color]

                        <span style="flame" intention="sinc ere">
                        One wonders how readers of books and magazines have managed all these years!
                        Has there ever been a call by the magazine reading community for publishers
                        just to mail them sequences of words with annotations as to their respective
                        roles, so that the readers could produce their own mock-ups to enjoy?

                        Believe it or not, many producers of web-based material are trying to
                        provide a specific and approximately consistent appearance to people having
                        one of several current-day browers (including Netscape 4.x, etc.). The small
                        portion of the population that wants to shrink the browser to a window 200
                        pixels wide and 600 high, or 1000 wide and 100 high, and still have a
                        legible presentation is not really a fundamental target.
                        </span>

                        Comment

                        • Isofarro

                          #13
                          Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

                          Harlan Messinger wrote:
                          [color=blue]
                          > <span style="flame" intention="sinc ere">
                          > One wonders how readers of books and magazines have managed all these
                          > years![/color]

                          The limitation of the print industry is not a limitation of the web. Paper
                          is cut at fixed size where the width is decided at printing time. This
                          "event" happens much later on the web - or sometimes browser window width
                          is irrelevant to the particular user. Imposing a print limitation on the
                          web just because it exists in print is short-sighted and counter to the
                          web's flexibility and strengths.
                          [color=blue]
                          > Has there ever been a call by the magazine reading community for
                          > publishers just to mail them sequences of words with annotations as to
                          > their respective roles,[/color]

                          Considering the more accurate analogy is about editors and writers on one
                          side, and printing houses on the other - yes. There has been a time where
                          editors and writers did not define how a page was printed, and instead they
                          defined (by marking up) which parts of the text corresponded to which
                          logical structure, and the printer/renderer used a stylesheet to translate
                          the logical structure into what inks and font-faces were used. On the web
                          rendering time happens within the user's browser - so the user's browser is
                          effectively the print/render process.

                          This separation is still in effect within the print industry - as evidenced
                          by novels and newspapers. Novels tend to come out as hardback first -
                          larger page size, larger font size, larger margins and paddings. Then a few
                          months later a paperback edition is released. And funny enough, the author
                          doesn't have to write the entire book out again because of the paperback
                          edition - they reuse the same copy and add a different presentation on top
                          - a presentation more appropriate for the smaller paperback page sizes.

                          Newspapers tend to syndicate columns. The columnist does not retype their
                          column for each newspaper it is syndicated on - she just transfers the copy
                          which allows the newspaper printers to add their custom styles to the copy.

                          --
                          Iso.
                          FAQs: http://html-faq.com http://alt-html.org http://allmyfaqs.com/
                          Recommended Hosting: http://www.affordablehost.com/
                          Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org/

                          Comment

                          • Greg Schmidt

                            #14
                            Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

                            On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 19:40:36 -0600, SoloCDM <deedsmis@aculi nk.net>
                            wrote:
                            [color=blue]
                            >Some things look sloppy if spread out.[/color]

                            Such things are clearly candidates for "max-width" settings, preferably
                            specified in em units. It is perfectly possible to have a fluid layout
                            that doesn't spread out beyond a certain point, but still contracts
                            properly when someone is using, for example, a PDA.
                            [color=blue]
                            >Even some of your link
                            >references use control over the width of their web pages, which
                            >clearly contradicts their preaching.[/color]

                            Yes, I didn't bother to read anything that these sites had to say. I
                            did pay attention to the clueful ones.

                            --
                            Greg Schmidt (gregs@trawna.c om)
                            Trawna Publications (http://www.trawna.com/)

                            Comment

                            • Greg Schmidt

                              #15
                              Re: Keeping Web Page at Fixed Width

                              On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:19:58 -0400, "Harlan Messinger"
                              <h.messinger@co mcast.net> wrote:
                              [color=blue]
                              ><span style="flame" intention="sinc ere">
                              >One wonders how readers of books and magazines have managed all these years!
                              >Has there ever been a call by the magazine reading community for publishers
                              >just to mail them sequences of words with annotations as to their respective
                              >roles, so that the readers could produce their own mock-ups to enjoy?[/color]

                              For many years, the only fastener we had was the nail. We used it by
                              pounding it hard with a hammer. One day, someone invented the screw.
                              Screws work best if they are *not* pounded hard with a hammer. Screws
                              are superior to nails in many ways, although there are still places that
                              nails are best. Both are trying to solve very similar problems, but the
                              ways in which we apply them are very different. Builders who wanted to
                              start using screws but refused to learn how to use the screwdriver
                              presumably didn't last very long.

                              Paper used to be the best way to present the material. In some cases it
                              still is. The web is very different from paper, and the sooner people
                              realize it, the better off we'll all be.
                              [color=blue]
                              >Believe it or not, many producers of web-based material are trying to
                              >provide a specific and approximately consistent appearance to people having
                              >one of several current-day browers (including Netscape 4.x, etc.). The small
                              >portion of the population that wants to shrink the browser to a window 200
                              >pixels wide and 600 high, or 1000 wide and 100 high, and still have a
                              >legible presentation is not really a fundamental target.
                              ></span>[/color]

                              Many producers of web-based material are former (or current) desktop
                              publishing experts who are trying to shoehorn a new medium into a
                              familiar shape to avoid having to learn something new. The very real
                              portion of the population that wants to use a browser window less than
                              800 pixels wide and not have to scroll horizontally to read the
                              information, and the small but growing portion of the population that is
                              using PDAs with screens less than 600 pixels wide are targets that are
                              ignored by these desktop publishing gurus, to the detriment of the
                              companies that hire said gurus to design their online presence.

                              And I'd wager that the percentage of people still using Netscape 4.x is
                              not much larger than the percentage of people who want to use a 200
                              pixel wide browser window. Netscape 4.x is *not* a "current-day"
                              browser, it is several years and several versions old. All
                              "current-day" browsers are quite capable of providing a "specific and
                              approximately consistent appearance" of an attractive liquid design, in
                              the hands of a talented designer.

                              --
                              Greg Schmidt (gregs@trawna.c om)
                              Trawna Publications (http://www.trawna.com/)

                              Comment

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